0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Dear viewer, these subtitles were generated by a machine via the service Trint and therefore are (very) buggy. If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/222 Thanks! 1 00:00:08,950 --> 00:00:11,349 So this is our next speaker, 2 00:00:11,350 --> 00:00:12,279 his step. 3 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:14,379 He works at Amnesty Germany 4 00:00:14,380 --> 00:00:16,569 in the new Digital Task Force, Digital 5 00:00:16,570 --> 00:00:18,849 at Amnesty, and he will talk about human 6 00:00:18,850 --> 00:00:20,259 rights and technology. Please welcome 7 00:00:20,260 --> 00:00:21,260 him. 8 00:00:27,450 --> 00:00:28,949 Hello, everybody. 9 00:00:28,950 --> 00:00:30,089 Thanks for coming. 10 00:00:30,090 --> 00:00:32,158 First of all, I'd like to to to 11 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:34,409 thank the organizers of this great 12 00:00:34,410 --> 00:00:36,609 Congress for inviting me. 13 00:00:36,610 --> 00:00:38,729 Um, I'm really glad to be 14 00:00:38,730 --> 00:00:40,069 here today. 15 00:00:40,070 --> 00:00:41,520 Um, first of all, because 16 00:00:43,020 --> 00:00:44,879 as far as I know, this is the first time 17 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,099 that Amnesty International is present at 18 00:00:47,100 --> 00:00:49,109 a hacker con Congress. 19 00:00:49,110 --> 00:00:50,110 And 20 00:00:51,570 --> 00:00:53,759 many of you have approached me in 21 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,399 the past few days 22 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:58,499 asking me, why hasn't 23 00:00:58,500 --> 00:01:00,479 Amnesty been active in the field of 24 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,089 digital rights before? 25 00:01:03,090 --> 00:01:05,879 And frankly, I can't 26 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:07,319 speak for the whole organization. 27 00:01:07,320 --> 00:01:09,659 I'm here as a kind of a spokesperson 28 00:01:09,660 --> 00:01:11,879 for Digital at Amnesty, a new 29 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:12,880 task force 30 00:01:14,340 --> 00:01:16,469 who just has 31 00:01:16,470 --> 00:01:19,259 been established informally 32 00:01:19,260 --> 00:01:21,599 in within the determined 33 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,369 section of Amnesty International. 34 00:01:23,370 --> 00:01:25,889 And I don't 35 00:01:25,890 --> 00:01:28,659 know why Amnesty hasn't addressed 36 00:01:28,660 --> 00:01:30,929 digital rights with a special 37 00:01:30,930 --> 00:01:32,940 focus yet, but I think 38 00:01:34,980 --> 00:01:37,199 what I can say for me is 39 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,510 that of our group is that we 40 00:01:40,980 --> 00:01:41,939 will 41 00:01:41,940 --> 00:01:44,039 try to put 42 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,039 a focus on on these topics in the future. 43 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,139 And um, I 44 00:01:49,140 --> 00:01:50,140 would like to 45 00:01:51,420 --> 00:01:52,809 start off. 46 00:01:52,810 --> 00:01:55,069 We have a look at the UM at 47 00:01:55,070 --> 00:01:57,539 the first slide. My Um, the subtitle 48 00:01:57,540 --> 00:01:59,519 of my presentation today is A New Hope, 49 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,349 The Empire Strikes Back. 50 00:02:01,350 --> 00:02:03,419 Star Wars fans will know 51 00:02:03,420 --> 00:02:05,729 what that actually where that actually 52 00:02:05,730 --> 00:02:06,689 comes from. 53 00:02:06,690 --> 00:02:09,029 Um, and 54 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:11,339 if we 55 00:02:11,340 --> 00:02:14,069 have a look at what kind of 56 00:02:14,070 --> 00:02:16,079 human rights issues we've had in the 57 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,419 past, um, and with a focus 58 00:02:18,420 --> 00:02:20,549 on digital on 59 00:02:20,550 --> 00:02:22,619 the digital world, um, there have been 60 00:02:22,620 --> 00:02:23,489 a few and 61 00:02:23,490 --> 00:02:24,479 I've 62 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,639 found my um 63 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:28,619 and talk has been reduced from 60 minutes 64 00:02:28,620 --> 00:02:30,809 to 30 minutes. So I'm not going to go 65 00:02:30,810 --> 00:02:33,119 into details about that. 66 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,009 But there have been a couple of human 67 00:02:35,010 --> 00:02:36,779 rights issues like that. She talks, for 68 00:02:36,780 --> 00:02:38,459 example, where she now has been released 69 00:02:38,460 --> 00:02:40,169 a couple of weeks ago. 70 00:02:40,170 --> 00:02:42,839 Um, but he's been imprisoned 71 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:44,159 for, um, 72 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:45,160 for a long time 73 00:02:46,230 --> 00:02:48,329 by the Chinese government because he 74 00:02:48,330 --> 00:02:50,519 once um, 75 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,619 he he blocked on 76 00:02:52,620 --> 00:02:54,929 the internet. He just made 77 00:02:54,930 --> 00:02:57,179 use of his right to freedom 78 00:02:57,180 --> 00:02:58,499 of speech 79 00:02:58,500 --> 00:02:59,500 and 80 00:03:00,420 --> 00:03:03,629 with the help of Yahoo. 81 00:03:03,630 --> 00:03:05,759 A US company, he 82 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:07,919 has been his his 83 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:10,229 contact details and his IP 84 00:03:10,230 --> 00:03:12,449 addresses have been 85 00:03:12,450 --> 00:03:14,819 tracked down and so he could 86 00:03:14,820 --> 00:03:15,820 be detained. 87 00:03:17,460 --> 00:03:19,769 I think this is what really 88 00:03:19,770 --> 00:03:21,520 shows that, um, 89 00:03:22,590 --> 00:03:24,989 there is something to the internet that 90 00:03:24,990 --> 00:03:27,149 has some relevance for for 91 00:03:27,150 --> 00:03:29,609 our human rights and for the possibility 92 00:03:29,610 --> 00:03:31,679 to exercise these human 93 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:32,939 rights. 94 00:03:32,940 --> 00:03:35,279 It is on the New Hope light because, 95 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,409 as I said, she tao has 96 00:03:37,410 --> 00:03:39,629 been released a couple of weeks 97 00:03:39,630 --> 00:03:40,799 ago. 98 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,689 Um, on 99 00:03:42,690 --> 00:03:45,179 the New Hope slate also, of course, 100 00:03:45,180 --> 00:03:47,759 the Arab Spring movement and what came 101 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:48,719 from that? 102 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,029 I think just this has been, 103 00:03:51,030 --> 00:03:53,789 um, this has shown really 104 00:03:53,790 --> 00:03:55,859 great relevance to, um, to 105 00:03:55,860 --> 00:03:58,259 the human rights movement as a whole that 106 00:03:58,260 --> 00:04:00,689 digital communications technology 107 00:04:00,690 --> 00:04:02,009 has been used. 108 00:04:02,010 --> 00:04:04,229 Um, bloggers 109 00:04:04,230 --> 00:04:06,329 and Facebook members 110 00:04:06,330 --> 00:04:09,179 have communicated 111 00:04:09,180 --> 00:04:11,009 and have tried to 112 00:04:12,180 --> 00:04:14,769 come together and to to, um, 113 00:04:14,770 --> 00:04:16,410 organize meetings and organize, 114 00:04:18,029 --> 00:04:20,939 um, public 115 00:04:20,940 --> 00:04:21,940 public 116 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:25,319 demonstrations, 117 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:26,099 um, 118 00:04:26,100 --> 00:04:28,189 in the course of the Arab Spring. 119 00:04:28,190 --> 00:04:30,419 Um, what we call the Arab 120 00:04:30,420 --> 00:04:31,589 Spring. 121 00:04:31,590 --> 00:04:33,659 Um, on the other hand, there have 122 00:04:33,660 --> 00:04:36,419 been new ways to impart information 123 00:04:36,420 --> 00:04:38,609 like WikiLeaks, for 124 00:04:38,610 --> 00:04:39,809 example. 125 00:04:39,810 --> 00:04:42,569 Um, think of the, uh, Afghanistan 126 00:04:42,570 --> 00:04:44,970 and Iraq, uh um, 127 00:04:46,890 --> 00:04:49,169 information on 128 00:04:49,170 --> 00:04:50,789 human rights violations that have been 129 00:04:50,790 --> 00:04:54,149 documented for the first time by these 130 00:04:54,150 --> 00:04:55,619 by these documents. 131 00:04:55,620 --> 00:04:57,729 And of course, they've 132 00:04:57,730 --> 00:04:58,529 the 133 00:04:58,530 --> 00:04:59,820 much, much bigger 134 00:05:01,140 --> 00:05:03,569 if she was to release of 135 00:05:03,570 --> 00:05:04,589 secret U.S. 136 00:05:04,590 --> 00:05:05,850 diplomatic cables 137 00:05:07,110 --> 00:05:08,519 by WikiLeaks. 138 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:09,520 And uh, 139 00:05:10,590 --> 00:05:11,459 as 140 00:05:11,460 --> 00:05:13,829 the process has shown, 141 00:05:13,830 --> 00:05:15,089 um, 142 00:05:15,090 --> 00:05:17,459 assisted by um, 143 00:05:17,460 --> 00:05:18,460 Chelsea Manning, 144 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,199 Amnesty International itself 145 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,509 has made use of tools, uh, 146 00:05:24,510 --> 00:05:26,119 for a better exercise of human rights. 147 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,399 Like the panic button, the panic button 148 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,709 is kind of a hidden 149 00:05:30,710 --> 00:05:33,139 button on your smartphone where 150 00:05:33,140 --> 00:05:34,489 human rights defenders can 151 00:05:35,570 --> 00:05:36,570 try to 152 00:05:39,500 --> 00:05:41,749 set in or kind of, 153 00:05:41,750 --> 00:05:43,009 um, 154 00:05:43,010 --> 00:05:43,639 I don't 155 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:45,709 try to get out of an 156 00:05:45,710 --> 00:05:47,599 emergency situation by pushing that 157 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:49,939 button, and that 158 00:05:49,940 --> 00:05:52,639 leads to somebody 159 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,889 getting cold and cold so 160 00:05:54,890 --> 00:05:56,120 he can come to the rescue. 161 00:05:58,660 --> 00:06:00,100 No, that's the wrong one. 162 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,219 On the other hand. 163 00:06:03,220 --> 00:06:05,529 And that's the Empire Strikes Back 164 00:06:05,530 --> 00:06:07,959 slide as 165 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,089 what came out of the Arab Spring. 166 00:06:10,090 --> 00:06:12,159 We have a kind of 167 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:13,420 set back on these 168 00:06:14,790 --> 00:06:16,959 what really 169 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:17,709 um, 170 00:06:17,710 --> 00:06:19,929 these demonstrators had in mind 171 00:06:19,930 --> 00:06:21,819 when they started their uprisings. 172 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:25,360 WikiLeaks has 173 00:06:27,370 --> 00:06:28,509 practically been closed. 174 00:06:29,900 --> 00:06:31,750 So there was some 175 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,099 problems, too, to 176 00:06:36,100 --> 00:06:39,399 make payments to the way to the wiki, 177 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:40,400 to WikiLeaks, 178 00:06:41,530 --> 00:06:42,369 with 179 00:06:42,370 --> 00:06:45,069 problems with credit card transactions 180 00:06:45,070 --> 00:06:46,239 and so on. 181 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,059 Julian Assange is now an 182 00:06:49,060 --> 00:06:51,609 embassy asylum in Ecuador 183 00:06:51,610 --> 00:06:52,359 and 184 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:53,739 Chelsea Manning the informant. 185 00:06:53,740 --> 00:06:56,559 The whistleblower who actually disclosed 186 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,989 the US cable files, is in 187 00:06:58,990 --> 00:07:00,579 prison for 188 00:07:01,690 --> 00:07:03,309 thirty five years. 189 00:07:03,310 --> 00:07:04,629 That's at least the sentence 190 00:07:05,860 --> 00:07:07,059 for now. 191 00:07:07,060 --> 00:07:08,769 And on the other hand, we know 192 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,519 there are not only tools to 193 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,469 the information society, it doesn't only 194 00:07:14,470 --> 00:07:16,179 provide tools to to 195 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,299 enable or to facilitate the exercise of 196 00:07:19,300 --> 00:07:21,069 human rights, but also, on the other 197 00:07:21,070 --> 00:07:23,229 hand, tools to violate 198 00:07:23,230 --> 00:07:24,429 human rights. 199 00:07:24,430 --> 00:07:27,039 Technology has evolved quickly, and 200 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,199 now we're close to 201 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,059 what could be described a total 202 00:07:31,060 --> 00:07:32,060 surveillance state. 203 00:07:33,430 --> 00:07:34,430 And I think this is. 204 00:07:38,970 --> 00:07:41,099 What the Edward Snowden case 205 00:07:41,100 --> 00:07:42,100 shows, 206 00:07:43,770 --> 00:07:46,019 what digital human rights, 207 00:07:46,020 --> 00:07:46,379 after 208 00:07:46,380 --> 00:07:47,380 all, and 209 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,419 I'd like to start off by 210 00:07:51,420 --> 00:07:53,489 making a reference to the UM 211 00:07:53,490 --> 00:07:55,619 to a resolution of the 212 00:07:55,620 --> 00:07:58,559 Human Rights Council adopted in 213 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,499 July 2005 2012, 214 00:08:01,500 --> 00:08:02,729 um, 215 00:08:02,730 --> 00:08:05,279 stating that human rights are basically 216 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,289 technologically neutral. 217 00:08:07,290 --> 00:08:09,599 Um, they are 218 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:10,229 universal. 219 00:08:10,230 --> 00:08:12,689 That's a fact that has been, 220 00:08:12,690 --> 00:08:15,599 uh, that has been accepted 221 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:16,859 from the very beginning. 222 00:08:16,860 --> 00:08:19,529 So they don't, uh, 223 00:08:19,530 --> 00:08:21,629 apply just in the offline world, but 224 00:08:21,630 --> 00:08:22,769 also in the online world. 225 00:08:22,770 --> 00:08:25,169 And this resolution has made it clear, 226 00:08:25,170 --> 00:08:26,170 um, again, 227 00:08:27,690 --> 00:08:28,860 the Human Rights Council 228 00:08:30,030 --> 00:08:32,339 has affirmed that the same rights 229 00:08:32,340 --> 00:08:33,928 that people have offline must also be 230 00:08:33,929 --> 00:08:36,569 protected online, and it's 231 00:08:36,570 --> 00:08:38,908 made space as a special 232 00:08:38,909 --> 00:08:41,219 reference to the to the freedom 233 00:08:41,220 --> 00:08:42,450 of expression in this regard. 234 00:08:44,220 --> 00:08:46,289 But there are, of course, a number of 235 00:08:46,290 --> 00:08:48,209 other human rights that have a special 236 00:08:48,210 --> 00:08:50,669 relevance for, uh, um, for 237 00:08:50,670 --> 00:08:52,019 the digital world. 238 00:08:52,020 --> 00:08:54,389 And I just, uh, 239 00:08:54,390 --> 00:08:55,499 um, 240 00:08:55,500 --> 00:08:57,659 after I just, uh, 241 00:08:57,660 --> 00:08:59,909 I just give you a short impression 242 00:08:59,910 --> 00:09:02,009 of what rights we 243 00:09:02,010 --> 00:09:03,989 considered to have that special 244 00:09:03,990 --> 00:09:05,939 relevance. It's not only the freedom of 245 00:09:05,940 --> 00:09:08,079 expression, it's also the right 246 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,259 to access to information to impart 247 00:09:10,260 --> 00:09:13,559 information, the right to privacy, 248 00:09:13,560 --> 00:09:15,119 the right to the personal protection of 249 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:16,319 personal data. 250 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,749 Um, that might be a controversy 251 00:09:18,750 --> 00:09:21,149 about the actual extent to which 252 00:09:21,150 --> 00:09:23,729 copyright or other intellectual 253 00:09:23,730 --> 00:09:25,859 property rights might and might be, 254 00:09:25,860 --> 00:09:27,329 um, 255 00:09:27,330 --> 00:09:29,429 might be human rights and 256 00:09:29,430 --> 00:09:31,289 what the limitations may be. 257 00:09:31,290 --> 00:09:33,239 Um, the freedom of assembly. 258 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,399 Um, we could think of, uh, 259 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,529 like, uh, denial of service 260 00:09:37,530 --> 00:09:39,839 attacks or other forms 261 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,029 of political protest as 262 00:09:42,030 --> 00:09:44,369 far as they are connected to a political 263 00:09:44,370 --> 00:09:45,419 aim. 264 00:09:45,420 --> 00:09:47,489 Um, and then there's 265 00:09:47,490 --> 00:09:49,739 the question of is there anything 266 00:09:49,740 --> 00:09:52,199 like, uh, a virtual home that 267 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:53,909 needs to be protected? 268 00:09:53,910 --> 00:09:56,069 If you think back to the attendance 269 00:09:56,070 --> 00:09:58,229 might might think back to the UM 270 00:09:58,230 --> 00:10:00,239 to the ruling of the Federal 271 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:01,559 Constitutional Court. 272 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:03,659 Um, saying that there 273 00:10:03,660 --> 00:10:06,029 is a new fundamental right 274 00:10:07,050 --> 00:10:09,299 to the integrity of IP systems 275 00:10:09,300 --> 00:10:10,949 and that's basically what could be 276 00:10:10,950 --> 00:10:12,690 discussed in this context. 277 00:10:14,790 --> 00:10:15,790 So, um, 278 00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:19,519 as I said, I don't have much time. 279 00:10:20,690 --> 00:10:22,799 I go through the Snowden, 280 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,199 uh, slides, uh, 281 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,899 quite quickly. I think um, 282 00:10:27,900 --> 00:10:29,969 and these files, these these slides 283 00:10:29,970 --> 00:10:30,599 are 284 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:31,919 I 285 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:33,989 have two main parts, 286 00:10:33,990 --> 00:10:36,029 as I can tell you, the uh, the the first 287 00:10:36,030 --> 00:10:38,399 part is, um, the one on 288 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,499 the informant, the informant, the 289 00:10:40,500 --> 00:10:41,909 whistleblower Edward Snowden. 290 00:10:41,910 --> 00:10:44,819 What human rights does he 291 00:10:44,820 --> 00:10:46,829 have? Which human rights are relevant in 292 00:10:46,830 --> 00:10:49,379 this case, that could have been violated? 293 00:10:49,380 --> 00:10:52,169 And the other one is on 294 00:10:52,170 --> 00:10:53,679 his disclosures. 295 00:10:53,680 --> 00:10:55,739 Um, so what human rights are at 296 00:10:55,740 --> 00:10:57,419 stake in this regard? 297 00:10:58,530 --> 00:10:59,530 Um, 298 00:11:00,870 --> 00:11:01,679 is there 299 00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:03,569 a human right to the protection as a 300 00:11:03,570 --> 00:11:04,709 whistleblower? 301 00:11:04,710 --> 00:11:06,989 Um, I think all human rights 302 00:11:06,990 --> 00:11:09,509 organizations agree and this, 303 00:11:09,510 --> 00:11:11,609 uh, that there is a human 304 00:11:11,610 --> 00:11:12,869 right to the protection as a 305 00:11:12,870 --> 00:11:13,919 whistleblower. 306 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,619 And um, this, 307 00:11:16,620 --> 00:11:17,820 uh, this 308 00:11:19,260 --> 00:11:21,149 is also backed by, uh, 309 00:11:21,150 --> 00:11:23,819 uh, um, for example, 310 00:11:23,820 --> 00:11:25,710 uh, um, 311 00:11:27,300 --> 00:11:27,479 for 312 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,119 example, by the by the European 313 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,099 Court of Human Rights. 314 00:11:32,100 --> 00:11:34,439 Um, who has said that, um, 315 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,629 what is actually at stake here 316 00:11:36,630 --> 00:11:38,909 is the information of freedom is, 317 00:11:38,910 --> 00:11:42,029 um, the right to freely seek 318 00:11:42,030 --> 00:11:44,220 access and impart information. 319 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,549 And as part of that, there might 320 00:11:47,550 --> 00:11:49,769 be a right of somebody who 321 00:11:49,770 --> 00:11:52,109 is actually might even be legally 322 00:11:53,790 --> 00:11:55,499 obligated to keep a secret. 323 00:11:55,500 --> 00:11:57,989 And he might even be allowed 324 00:11:57,990 --> 00:12:00,779 to, uh, impart this information, 325 00:12:00,780 --> 00:12:02,670 even if it's classified with a public, 326 00:12:03,750 --> 00:12:04,750 um, 327 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,949 subject to certain conditions, of course. 328 00:12:07,950 --> 00:12:10,649 And this is also Amnesty's, uh, 329 00:12:10,650 --> 00:12:12,929 Amnesty's opinion that the 330 00:12:12,930 --> 00:12:14,819 freedom of expression and the information 331 00:12:14,820 --> 00:12:17,309 freedom is, um 332 00:12:17,310 --> 00:12:19,139 um uh, 333 00:12:19,140 --> 00:12:21,749 is limited in this regard. 334 00:12:21,750 --> 00:12:22,750 And 335 00:12:24,540 --> 00:12:25,019 uh, 336 00:12:25,020 --> 00:12:27,359 as regards the, uh, the rules 337 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:29,819 that must be, uh, the 338 00:12:29,820 --> 00:12:31,409 must be applied with, 339 00:12:31,410 --> 00:12:33,359 um, there 340 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,879 need to be national whistleblower 341 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:37,429 laws that. 342 00:12:37,430 --> 00:12:38,899 That effectively protect these 343 00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:40,219 whistleblowers, 344 00:12:40,220 --> 00:12:41,220 and 345 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,149 they must effectively protect them from 346 00:12:44,150 --> 00:12:47,059 excessive sanctions like laws 347 00:12:47,060 --> 00:12:50,299 must see that they 348 00:12:50,300 --> 00:12:52,729 are not um, 349 00:12:52,730 --> 00:12:54,979 they are not excessively punished if 350 00:12:54,980 --> 00:12:56,390 they release information 351 00:12:57,650 --> 00:12:59,929 in the public, interest must be 352 00:12:59,930 --> 00:13:02,809 considered in any way 353 00:13:02,810 --> 00:13:05,149 so that if there is public 354 00:13:05,150 --> 00:13:07,279 interest in certain information, this 355 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,889 can override a legal 356 00:13:09,890 --> 00:13:12,049 obligation to keep a secret. 357 00:13:12,050 --> 00:13:14,119 And one must also consider the 358 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,219 real damage that has that these 359 00:13:16,220 --> 00:13:17,839 information or the release of this 360 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,419 information has on state 361 00:13:20,420 --> 00:13:22,729 secrets or on 362 00:13:22,730 --> 00:13:25,249 legitimate, legitimate 363 00:13:25,250 --> 00:13:27,230 aims of the state. 364 00:13:28,730 --> 00:13:30,859 Um, this is 365 00:13:30,860 --> 00:13:32,899 just what the European Court of Human 366 00:13:32,900 --> 00:13:34,969 Rights has said on, uh, 367 00:13:34,970 --> 00:13:36,259 on this. In this regard, 368 00:13:37,730 --> 00:13:39,709 there's little scope for restrictions on 369 00:13:39,710 --> 00:13:42,529 debate of questions of public interest. 370 00:13:42,530 --> 00:13:44,690 Um, and that 371 00:13:45,770 --> 00:13:47,929 actually applies in general. 372 00:13:47,930 --> 00:13:48,930 So 373 00:13:51,050 --> 00:13:53,119 even if there there might be 374 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,699 some, uh, some negative 375 00:13:55,700 --> 00:13:57,799 impacts of that for 376 00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,959 the state and this information 377 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:01,669 being released, um. 378 00:14:04,010 --> 00:14:06,469 Public interest can can justify 379 00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:07,470 this. 380 00:14:07,850 --> 00:14:11,239 And on the other hand, in another case 381 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,149 in York versus Moldova, 382 00:14:14,150 --> 00:14:16,549 he said, some criteria for the assessment 383 00:14:16,550 --> 00:14:18,439 of the proportionality. 384 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,019 So a narrow definition 385 00:14:21,020 --> 00:14:22,789 of what what can be released and what 386 00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:24,799 cannot be released on the under the 387 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:26,419 information of freedom. 388 00:14:26,420 --> 00:14:27,420 Right. 389 00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:31,999 Um, these are, for example, 390 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:33,349 these are criteria that have to be 391 00:14:33,350 --> 00:14:35,419 assessed and in 392 00:14:35,420 --> 00:14:37,399 this analysis, whether or not a 393 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:38,809 whistleblower is protected by human 394 00:14:38,810 --> 00:14:41,509 rights. And this is, for example, the 395 00:14:41,510 --> 00:14:44,329 whether there exist alternative channels 396 00:14:44,330 --> 00:14:45,679 to remedy the wrongdoing. 397 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,779 Could he go to his 398 00:14:47,780 --> 00:14:49,849 officials to tell 399 00:14:49,850 --> 00:14:52,049 his bosses and say 400 00:14:52,050 --> 00:14:54,139 that there's information that needs 401 00:14:54,140 --> 00:14:56,689 to be out in the public 402 00:14:56,690 --> 00:14:57,690 or that 403 00:14:58,370 --> 00:14:59,690 there are some 404 00:15:01,130 --> 00:15:03,349 wrongdoings of the state that 405 00:15:03,350 --> 00:15:05,439 need to be addressed? 406 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,939 Um, has he sought these 407 00:15:07,940 --> 00:15:10,099 alternative channels if they 408 00:15:10,100 --> 00:15:11,089 exist? 409 00:15:11,090 --> 00:15:13,459 Is there any public interest 410 00:15:13,460 --> 00:15:14,460 in the disclosures? 411 00:15:15,650 --> 00:15:17,450 As I said, there might be, 412 00:15:18,990 --> 00:15:20,959 you know, this might be an overriding, 413 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:21,960 um, 414 00:15:23,540 --> 00:15:24,540 interest 415 00:15:25,850 --> 00:15:27,230 is of the information 416 00:15:28,310 --> 00:15:28,399 and 417 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,349 the authenticity of the information needs 418 00:15:30,350 --> 00:15:32,959 to be assessed. So, um uh, 419 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,389 is is it credible 420 00:15:35,390 --> 00:15:37,489 that this, uh, these documents are 421 00:15:37,490 --> 00:15:38,739 true? 422 00:15:38,740 --> 00:15:40,759 Um, and what is the actual damage to the 423 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:42,589 state, to the authority? 424 00:15:42,590 --> 00:15:44,509 Um, in this regard, and 425 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,619 last not least, the motive of 426 00:15:48,620 --> 00:15:50,689 the whistleblower, did he act 427 00:15:50,690 --> 00:15:51,679 to, 428 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:52,429 uh, 429 00:15:52,430 --> 00:15:53,839 the public 430 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:54,229 good 431 00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:56,359 or did he just because 432 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,369 he wanted to? 433 00:15:58,370 --> 00:16:00,529 Um, he he wanted to 434 00:16:00,530 --> 00:16:02,629 do harm 435 00:16:02,630 --> 00:16:05,090 to the state's legitimate 436 00:16:06,260 --> 00:16:08,509 goals or interests? 437 00:16:08,510 --> 00:16:10,969 Um, there there are some principles 438 00:16:10,970 --> 00:16:12,679 that have been drafted. 439 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,899 Um uh, 440 00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:16,969 these are on on the right 441 00:16:16,970 --> 00:16:19,849 to the protection of a whistleblower. 442 00:16:19,850 --> 00:16:21,289 And these are, for example, the, uh, the 443 00:16:21,290 --> 00:16:23,989 Johannesburg principles of 1996 444 00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:25,459 on national security, freedom of 445 00:16:25,460 --> 00:16:27,799 expression and access to information. 446 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,409 Um, and these give some guidelines in 447 00:16:30,410 --> 00:16:33,529 how these whistleblowers can actually, 448 00:16:33,530 --> 00:16:34,099 um, 449 00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:37,009 be protected and 450 00:16:37,010 --> 00:16:39,829 what is a legitimate national security 451 00:16:39,830 --> 00:16:41,119 interest that 452 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:42,120 can 453 00:16:42,980 --> 00:16:45,169 prevent whistleblowers 454 00:16:45,170 --> 00:16:46,559 from protection. 455 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,889 Um, and the recently adopted, 456 00:16:48,890 --> 00:16:51,679 UH, Swain 20 principles 457 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:53,299 on national security and the right to 458 00:16:53,300 --> 00:16:56,059 information, um have also been 459 00:16:56,060 --> 00:16:58,639 signed by Amnesty International. 460 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:00,769 They give further guidance 461 00:17:00,770 --> 00:17:01,939 in this regard. 462 00:17:01,940 --> 00:17:03,499 I have for time reason. 463 00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:06,108 I can't go into details on that. 464 00:17:06,109 --> 00:17:07,109 Um. 465 00:17:08,890 --> 00:17:11,269 So what 466 00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:12,759 have has actually been 467 00:17:14,380 --> 00:17:17,348 the problem the US had with, uh, 468 00:17:17,349 --> 00:17:18,279 um 469 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,199 uh, Snowden releases. 470 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,358 Um, they accused him 471 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,729 of theft of government property 472 00:17:24,730 --> 00:17:26,559 of unauthorized communication of national 473 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:28,539 defense information and willful 474 00:17:28,540 --> 00:17:30,249 communication of classified 475 00:17:30,250 --> 00:17:32,139 communications intelligence information 476 00:17:32,140 --> 00:17:34,149 to an unauthorized person. 477 00:17:34,150 --> 00:17:36,579 These were the three charges 478 00:17:36,580 --> 00:17:38,079 were brought up. 479 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,119 And Amnesty said in this regard that 480 00:17:41,380 --> 00:17:42,759 the revelations about human rights 481 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:44,559 violations are covered by the right to 482 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,809 freedom of speech. So there's 483 00:17:46,810 --> 00:17:47,649 clearly 484 00:17:47,650 --> 00:17:48,849 not, um 485 00:17:48,850 --> 00:17:51,069 um, a state interest that can 486 00:17:51,070 --> 00:17:53,199 speak against the release of this 487 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,299 information and any trial against Edward 488 00:17:55,300 --> 00:17:57,309 Snowden would amount to political 489 00:17:57,310 --> 00:17:58,310 persecution. 490 00:17:59,770 --> 00:18:03,309 And these are couple of other aspects 491 00:18:03,310 --> 00:18:04,869 of the Snowden case. 492 00:18:04,870 --> 00:18:06,609 Um uh, 493 00:18:06,610 --> 00:18:09,369 with regard to his seeking asylum 494 00:18:09,370 --> 00:18:11,439 in Russia and 495 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,969 could he be extradited and 496 00:18:13,970 --> 00:18:15,039 and stuff like that? 497 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:16,959 And um, what about the Guardian? 498 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:18,799 Um, pressure 499 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:19,829 and 500 00:18:19,830 --> 00:18:22,029 the pressure and put by the U.K. 501 00:18:22,030 --> 00:18:24,369 government on on the Guardian to destroy 502 00:18:24,370 --> 00:18:26,619 files and hard disks and and on 503 00:18:26,620 --> 00:18:29,229 David Miranda to, um 504 00:18:29,230 --> 00:18:31,329 uh, give information about 505 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:32,829 this 506 00:18:32,830 --> 00:18:33,830 case. 507 00:18:34,570 --> 00:18:35,529 On the other hand, we have the 508 00:18:35,530 --> 00:18:37,509 information that has been released 509 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,319 and that gives, uh, 510 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,479 credible evidence of massive human rights 511 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:44,480 violations 512 00:18:46,300 --> 00:18:46,479 and 513 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:47,480 what Amnesty 514 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:50,949 has set into. And this report is 515 00:18:50,950 --> 00:18:52,029 basically that, 516 00:18:52,030 --> 00:18:53,349 um, 517 00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:55,629 the right to privacy is 518 00:18:55,630 --> 00:18:57,219 has been violated. 519 00:18:57,220 --> 00:18:59,499 Um, and the right to privacy is a human 520 00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:01,959 right that is enshrined in 521 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,179 many, uh, human rights 522 00:19:04,180 --> 00:19:06,669 international human rights instruments 523 00:19:06,670 --> 00:19:08,529 such as the Universal Declaration of 524 00:19:08,530 --> 00:19:09,879 Human Rights and the International 525 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,819 Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, 526 00:19:12,820 --> 00:19:15,459 and also at a regional level, UM 527 00:19:15,460 --> 00:19:17,709 in the European Convention on Human 528 00:19:17,710 --> 00:19:18,710 Rights. 529 00:19:19,660 --> 00:19:21,939 And it needs to be said because 530 00:19:21,940 --> 00:19:25,239 this is exactly what the US 531 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,609 government and also what U.S. 532 00:19:27,610 --> 00:19:28,780 jurisprudence denies 533 00:19:30,220 --> 00:19:33,309 that from the right to privacy 534 00:19:33,310 --> 00:19:35,679 and covered not only the content 535 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,169 of the messages but also the metadata. 536 00:19:38,170 --> 00:19:40,059 And this is crucial in this regard 537 00:19:40,060 --> 00:19:42,129 because, as has shown, the 538 00:19:42,130 --> 00:19:45,039 phone data tapping for, for example, 539 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:46,629 um, with a Verizon order, 540 00:19:46,630 --> 00:19:48,939 um uh 541 00:19:48,940 --> 00:19:50,949 um, allows exactly that. 542 00:19:50,950 --> 00:19:53,109 Metadata of telephone calls are 543 00:19:53,110 --> 00:19:54,579 stored for 544 00:19:54,580 --> 00:19:55,580 a long period. 545 00:19:57,930 --> 00:19:59,679 There are certain limits. 546 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,049 Um, and with regard to 547 00:20:02,050 --> 00:20:04,119 the encroachment of the rights of privacy 548 00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:06,309 in this, uh, for example, that any 549 00:20:06,310 --> 00:20:08,889 surveillance measures must 550 00:20:08,890 --> 00:20:11,049 be based on a legal norm, so 551 00:20:11,050 --> 00:20:12,659 they must be lawful. 552 00:20:12,660 --> 00:20:14,799 Um, but this is not everything, 553 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:16,749 and they must also pursue a legitimate 554 00:20:16,750 --> 00:20:17,829 aim. 555 00:20:17,830 --> 00:20:20,079 Um, national security may 556 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,149 be, uh, um, legitimate 557 00:20:22,150 --> 00:20:23,150 aim, but 558 00:20:24,910 --> 00:20:26,859 this is something that needs to be 559 00:20:26,860 --> 00:20:28,669 narrowly defined. 560 00:20:28,670 --> 00:20:30,729 And thirdly, 561 00:20:30,730 --> 00:20:31,929 any encroachment needs to be 562 00:20:31,930 --> 00:20:32,930 proportionate. 563 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:37,400 So 564 00:20:38,830 --> 00:20:40,329 what is also, 565 00:20:41,530 --> 00:20:43,839 um, uh, 566 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,029 what is also at stake 567 00:20:46,030 --> 00:20:48,849 here is the freedom of expression. 568 00:20:48,850 --> 00:20:50,919 Um, and a recent 569 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,589 Pen America survey has shown that 570 00:20:53,590 --> 00:20:56,859 nearly twenty five percent of all writers 571 00:20:56,860 --> 00:20:59,139 know this is the writers association 572 00:20:59,140 --> 00:21:02,289 and twenty five percent of all writers 573 00:21:02,290 --> 00:21:05,169 and questioned said that they, uh, 574 00:21:05,170 --> 00:21:07,269 that the disclosures of the NSA 575 00:21:07,270 --> 00:21:09,369 files have led 576 00:21:09,370 --> 00:21:11,469 them to tend to think 577 00:21:11,470 --> 00:21:14,379 about what they actually write and 578 00:21:14,380 --> 00:21:15,549 what they don't. 579 00:21:15,550 --> 00:21:18,159 So I think this is a very worrying 580 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,409 statement that shows that 581 00:21:20,410 --> 00:21:22,929 there is a significant chilling effect 582 00:21:22,930 --> 00:21:25,089 to the UM to the exercise of female 583 00:21:25,090 --> 00:21:27,159 freedom, to the freedom of 584 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,069 expression in this regard. 585 00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:32,469 Um, and that it's not 586 00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:34,599 only the right of privacy that is 587 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:35,600 at stake here. 588 00:21:39,780 --> 00:21:41,160 Amnesty International has also 589 00:21:42,900 --> 00:21:45,869 said that there is a um, 590 00:21:45,870 --> 00:21:47,639 there's an interference with the 591 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:48,640 information of freedom 592 00:21:49,860 --> 00:21:52,079 and it has done so 593 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,239 for a human rights claim made to the 594 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:55,349 IPT. 595 00:21:55,350 --> 00:21:57,329 And that is the Investigatory Powers 596 00:21:57,330 --> 00:21:59,699 Tribunal in the UK and 597 00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:00,900 the only official 598 00:22:02,010 --> 00:22:04,409 body that can judge 599 00:22:04,410 --> 00:22:06,839 on secret surveillance 600 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,149 measures in this regard. 601 00:22:09,150 --> 00:22:11,369 Um, Amnesty International 602 00:22:11,370 --> 00:22:12,370 has said that 603 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,109 the reception by the UK of information 604 00:22:16,110 --> 00:22:18,179 from the US intercepted for 605 00:22:18,180 --> 00:22:20,279 prisoner and upstream programs 606 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:21,539 um 607 00:22:21,540 --> 00:22:24,329 the use by the UK as a temporary program 608 00:22:24,330 --> 00:22:26,489 and the lack of the 609 00:22:26,490 --> 00:22:28,499 sufficiency of the UK legal framework 610 00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:31,889 regulating those operations, um 611 00:22:31,890 --> 00:22:34,619 violate human rights and it has made, 612 00:22:34,620 --> 00:22:35,620 uh, 613 00:22:36,450 --> 00:22:38,249 it has made a case that, um, the complete 614 00:22:38,250 --> 00:22:40,889 lack of a proper legal basis. 615 00:22:40,890 --> 00:22:42,839 And um, 616 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:44,999 regarding the use of us 617 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:46,859 intercepted information, 618 00:22:46,860 --> 00:22:47,860 um 619 00:22:48,390 --> 00:22:50,789 violates human rights and also and 620 00:22:50,790 --> 00:22:53,130 the disproportionate application 621 00:22:54,390 --> 00:22:56,879 of these information. 622 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:58,859 And on the other hand, at the end of the 623 00:22:58,860 --> 00:22:59,939 current legal framework 624 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,419 in place in UK 625 00:23:03,420 --> 00:23:04,649 regulatory 626 00:23:04,650 --> 00:23:06,539 UM, the 627 00:23:06,540 --> 00:23:09,209 Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, 628 00:23:09,210 --> 00:23:10,210 UM, 629 00:23:10,890 --> 00:23:13,349 which governs the surveillance 630 00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:15,719 in the UK, is woefully inadequate 631 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,090 and urgently needs reform. 632 00:23:19,770 --> 00:23:22,339 So, um, and 633 00:23:22,340 --> 00:23:24,119 and also that there are no effective 634 00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:25,499 safeguards in this 635 00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:26,699 act. 636 00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:29,219 Um, regarding the surveillance 637 00:23:29,220 --> 00:23:31,559 of external communications and 638 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,479 there are some, some limits within 639 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,489 proximity to internal communications. 640 00:23:35,490 --> 00:23:38,369 But communications that go without 641 00:23:38,370 --> 00:23:41,489 the UK are not effectively 642 00:23:41,490 --> 00:23:42,490 protected. 643 00:23:43,590 --> 00:23:45,719 And on the other hand, Amnesty's right, 644 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,969 as I've just said, to seek receive 645 00:23:47,970 --> 00:23:49,619 any information. So the information of 646 00:23:49,620 --> 00:23:51,809 freedom is, um, 647 00:23:51,810 --> 00:23:53,729 unlawfully impaired by the fact that the 648 00:23:53,730 --> 00:23:55,559 sources would be discouraged to 649 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,059 communicate with amnesty. 650 00:23:57,060 --> 00:23:59,729 So Amnesty has a lot of 651 00:23:59,730 --> 00:24:02,249 informants on human rights violations 652 00:24:02,250 --> 00:24:04,319 all over the world, and these 653 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,389 sources might be, 654 00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:08,519 um um, might be 655 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,859 deterred from communicate with amnesty 656 00:24:10,860 --> 00:24:12,119 if they knew that 657 00:24:13,140 --> 00:24:14,220 their communications are 658 00:24:15,330 --> 00:24:16,330 intercepted. 659 00:24:17,670 --> 00:24:17,849 There are a 660 00:24:17,850 --> 00:24:19,679 couple of other initiatives which I don't 661 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,779 have time to go into detail 662 00:24:21,780 --> 00:24:23,999 right now. I'm most prominently, 663 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,470 I think, the um 664 00:24:26,550 --> 00:24:28,979 human uh, the claim brought before the 665 00:24:28,980 --> 00:24:31,139 European Court of Human Rights, 666 00:24:31,140 --> 00:24:32,140 um 667 00:24:32,910 --> 00:24:35,159 by Big Brother Watch, the open 668 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,349 government partnership 669 00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:40,229 and constant reports of the 670 00:24:40,230 --> 00:24:41,230 Chaos Computer Club. 671 00:24:42,330 --> 00:24:43,330 And um 672 00:24:44,850 --> 00:24:45,149 yeah, 673 00:24:45,150 --> 00:24:47,729 and let's not forget that, um, 674 00:24:47,730 --> 00:24:50,099 even the German government has taken 675 00:24:50,100 --> 00:24:52,289 an initiative together 676 00:24:52,290 --> 00:24:54,479 with the Brazilian government 677 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,729 on a General 678 00:24:56,730 --> 00:24:59,069 Assembly resolution at the UN 679 00:24:59,070 --> 00:25:00,959 General Assembly on the right to privacy 680 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,179 in the digital age that has been adopted 681 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,210 unanimously by all 682 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:08,320 UN member states. 683 00:25:09,870 --> 00:25:11,769 You're a couple of other initiatives. 684 00:25:11,770 --> 00:25:13,889 I think I should come to a 685 00:25:13,890 --> 00:25:15,219 conclusion on this. 686 00:25:15,220 --> 00:25:17,220 Um, so 687 00:25:19,590 --> 00:25:19,859 what 688 00:25:19,860 --> 00:25:21,689 is the actual impact? 689 00:25:21,690 --> 00:25:23,069 Uh, of all this? 690 00:25:23,070 --> 00:25:25,229 I think, um, evidence 691 00:25:25,230 --> 00:25:27,809 has shown that human rights 692 00:25:27,810 --> 00:25:29,759 are being trampled in the name of 693 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:30,719 national security. 694 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,129 And um, 695 00:25:32,130 --> 00:25:33,539 well, nobody can give a proper 696 00:25:33,540 --> 00:25:36,209 international, internationally consistent 697 00:25:36,210 --> 00:25:38,279 definition of what national security 698 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:39,299 actually is. 699 00:25:39,300 --> 00:25:41,879 So this is even more worrying. 700 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,009 And to the year to the 701 00:25:44,010 --> 00:25:46,079 Five Eyes, uh, intelligence 702 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,509 agencies, um, just about anything 703 00:25:48,510 --> 00:25:50,069 that secures their power in the world 704 00:25:50,070 --> 00:25:51,539 seems to be justified for it, for 705 00:25:51,540 --> 00:25:53,279 national security purposes. 706 00:25:54,420 --> 00:25:56,699 And anything in the national interest 707 00:25:56,700 --> 00:25:59,279 seems actually apt to counter attacks 708 00:25:59,280 --> 00:25:59,519 on the 709 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:00,520 national security. 710 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,499 Technology can can solve a lot of these 711 00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:06,989 issues, but not everything. 712 00:26:06,990 --> 00:26:09,569 If you, for example, uh, encrypt 713 00:26:09,570 --> 00:26:10,859 your communication. 714 00:26:10,860 --> 00:26:12,869 This, uh, applies to your content, but 715 00:26:12,870 --> 00:26:14,519 not to the metadata. 716 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,859 Uh, if you use Tor, you can anonymize 717 00:26:16,860 --> 00:26:18,629 your communication and we'll see you 718 00:26:18,630 --> 00:26:20,639 metadata, but that makes you suspicious 719 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,129 and thus NSA's target. 720 00:26:23,130 --> 00:26:25,589 Um, you can pimp your PC security. 721 00:26:25,590 --> 00:26:27,839 That's fine, but if you really think 722 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,089 this will prevent the NSA from breaking 723 00:26:30,090 --> 00:26:31,019 in. 724 00:26:31,020 --> 00:26:32,020 Personally, I don't think 725 00:26:33,420 --> 00:26:33,629 you 726 00:26:33,630 --> 00:26:35,699 can, so you can engage in the 727 00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:37,139 security. Raised with the NSA 728 00:26:37,140 --> 00:26:39,259 practically, and um, you. 729 00:26:42,380 --> 00:26:45,319 Um, but 730 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,329 you will probably lose this game. 731 00:26:47,330 --> 00:26:49,009 Um, so 732 00:26:49,010 --> 00:26:50,929 what actually can make a difference is 733 00:26:50,930 --> 00:26:52,459 political solutions. 734 00:26:52,460 --> 00:26:55,219 Um, and I think in this regard, 735 00:26:55,220 --> 00:26:56,809 we need 736 00:26:56,810 --> 00:26:57,810 some 737 00:26:58,250 --> 00:26:59,419 cooperation. 738 00:26:59,420 --> 00:27:01,819 We need to join our forces. 739 00:27:01,820 --> 00:27:04,159 Um, because 740 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,859 as everyone has said, if you think your 741 00:27:06,860 --> 00:27:08,329 technology can solve your security 742 00:27:08,330 --> 00:27:10,219 problems, then you don't understand 743 00:27:10,220 --> 00:27:12,319 technology and you don't understand 744 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:13,769 your problems. 745 00:27:13,770 --> 00:27:14,770 Um, 746 00:27:16,130 --> 00:27:19,099 so um, quickly 747 00:27:19,100 --> 00:27:20,539 go forward. 748 00:27:20,540 --> 00:27:22,819 Um, move over to to, uh, to a quote 749 00:27:22,820 --> 00:27:24,109 by Tim Berners-Lee. 750 00:27:24,110 --> 00:27:26,119 And he said, I believe we have reached a 751 00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:28,399 critical juncture where if we do not 752 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:29,869 unite and fight for our rights to 753 00:27:29,870 --> 00:27:31,849 privacy, freedom of information, freedom 754 00:27:31,850 --> 00:27:33,859 of association and freedom of expression 755 00:27:33,860 --> 00:27:35,869 in this new digital world, it will be 756 00:27:35,870 --> 00:27:37,099 taken away. 757 00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:39,019 Human rights defenders like Amnesty are 758 00:27:39,020 --> 00:27:40,250 critical to win the battle. 759 00:27:42,660 --> 00:27:45,109 Decide that Amnesty is a new, newly 760 00:27:45,110 --> 00:27:47,269 evolving task force at 761 00:27:47,270 --> 00:27:49,399 jammin level, and we hope that we're 762 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:50,659 we're going to find, 763 00:27:50,660 --> 00:27:51,379 uh, 764 00:27:51,380 --> 00:27:53,719 a lot of other sections within Amnesty 765 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,489 International that will join us. 766 00:27:55,490 --> 00:27:56,599 But we also need you. 767 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,309 We need, uh, 768 00:27:58,310 --> 00:27:58,459 the 769 00:27:58,460 --> 00:28:00,949 hackers. We need the hackers community 770 00:28:00,950 --> 00:28:03,019 we have. We need digital 771 00:28:03,020 --> 00:28:05,509 rights activists, um, 772 00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:07,789 from other organizations to join 773 00:28:07,790 --> 00:28:10,549 us and to cooperate with us. 774 00:28:10,550 --> 00:28:12,919 Um, because 775 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:14,719 there is cooperation on the other side as 776 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,999 well. And we know that 777 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,369 national security agencies and 778 00:28:19,370 --> 00:28:21,289 intelligence agencies all over the world 779 00:28:21,290 --> 00:28:22,369 cooperate, 780 00:28:22,370 --> 00:28:22,999 um, 781 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,019 to violate our human rights. 782 00:28:25,020 --> 00:28:27,739 So what we should do is 783 00:28:27,740 --> 00:28:29,629 to cooperate in fighting these 784 00:28:29,630 --> 00:28:30,630 violations. 785 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,519 What is your share in this cooperation 786 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:36,869 or what could be your share, your 787 00:28:36,870 --> 00:28:39,269 technical know how, of course, and 788 00:28:39,270 --> 00:28:41,399 your community, that is 789 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,649 very networked, and I have to say 790 00:28:43,650 --> 00:28:45,779 this again, that Amnesty 791 00:28:45,780 --> 00:28:48,329 is an newbie 792 00:28:48,330 --> 00:28:50,549 on this stage with regard to the digital 793 00:28:50,550 --> 00:28:52,889 rights. We have said 794 00:28:52,890 --> 00:28:55,229 a couple of times in the Chelsea Manning 795 00:28:55,230 --> 00:28:57,689 case, for example, and WikiLeaks 796 00:28:57,690 --> 00:28:59,429 on this case. 797 00:28:59,430 --> 00:29:01,499 We have been involved in all this and 798 00:29:01,500 --> 00:29:03,689 we have um 799 00:29:03,690 --> 00:29:05,249 voiced our concerns, but 800 00:29:05,250 --> 00:29:06,250 not 801 00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:08,939 not as focused as we are trying to 802 00:29:08,940 --> 00:29:10,439 do that now. 803 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,779 And you do that for a long time. 804 00:29:12,780 --> 00:29:15,299 There are citizen rights groups and 805 00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:17,579 there I know personally in Germany and 806 00:29:17,580 --> 00:29:19,349 they do that for a long time. 807 00:29:19,350 --> 00:29:21,449 And that's 808 00:29:21,450 --> 00:29:23,519 still I think we need to join 809 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,319 forces on that. 810 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,059 What is our share? 811 00:29:27,060 --> 00:29:29,579 I think Amnesty has a very good standing. 812 00:29:29,580 --> 00:29:31,139 Um. And what have we got? 813 00:29:31,140 --> 00:29:32,309 Human rights. We are a global 814 00:29:32,310 --> 00:29:34,439 organization with three million 815 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,199 supporters worldwide. 816 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,339 Um, we have 817 00:29:38,340 --> 00:29:40,019 a high credibility because we are an 818 00:29:40,020 --> 00:29:43,109 independent and impartial organization 819 00:29:43,110 --> 00:29:46,049 that has consultative status with 820 00:29:46,050 --> 00:29:47,009 some of the U.N. 821 00:29:47,010 --> 00:29:48,779 bodies that are concerned with human 822 00:29:48,780 --> 00:29:51,359 rights issues, the Human Rights Council 823 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:52,829 and the ECOSOC. 824 00:29:52,830 --> 00:29:54,799 So I believe that, um 825 00:29:55,890 --> 00:29:57,299 uh, both 826 00:29:57,300 --> 00:29:59,399 you and us, we have a lot 827 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,349 in common. We have common goals and we 828 00:30:01,350 --> 00:30:04,169 should use that to cooperate, 829 00:30:04,170 --> 00:30:05,170 um, 830 00:30:07,140 --> 00:30:09,299 in order to in order to, 831 00:30:09,300 --> 00:30:11,549 um, fight this 832 00:30:11,550 --> 00:30:14,069 war on privacy that has taken place 833 00:30:14,070 --> 00:30:16,229 and that has been disclosed by Edward 834 00:30:16,230 --> 00:30:18,329 Snowden, but also on other digital 835 00:30:18,330 --> 00:30:19,330 rights issues 836 00:30:20,430 --> 00:30:21,569 that are relevant. 837 00:30:21,570 --> 00:30:24,209 And Eric Schmidt, in a famous 838 00:30:24,210 --> 00:30:26,429 statement, comes to my mind when I 839 00:30:26,430 --> 00:30:27,089 heard that, 840 00:30:27,090 --> 00:30:28,649 um, these 841 00:30:28,650 --> 00:30:30,899 disclosures, um, they were actually 842 00:30:30,900 --> 00:30:31,900 meant, 843 00:30:33,150 --> 00:30:33,989 uh, 844 00:30:33,990 --> 00:30:36,299 they were actually meant with regard 845 00:30:36,300 --> 00:30:37,799 to users privacy. 846 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,869 Um, he said, if 847 00:30:39,870 --> 00:30:42,059 you don't, I have 848 00:30:42,060 --> 00:30:43,799 a find that here, um. 849 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,619 Because I don't remember it exactly. 850 00:30:52,620 --> 00:30:54,089 If you have something that you don't want 851 00:30:54,090 --> 00:30:55,619 anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be 852 00:30:55,620 --> 00:30:56,849 doing it in the first place. 853 00:30:58,590 --> 00:31:00,749 And I think with regard to user 854 00:31:00,750 --> 00:31:02,879 privacy, this is really 855 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,949 an inappropriate statement. 856 00:31:04,950 --> 00:31:07,169 But if you turn it on to 857 00:31:07,170 --> 00:31:09,419 the intelligence agencies and it suddenly 858 00:31:09,420 --> 00:31:11,519 makes sense and you 859 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:12,520 shouldn't be doing that 860 00:31:13,770 --> 00:31:16,199 if you keep it secret, and 861 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,359 maybe it's for 862 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,189 a reason that you don't want anybody 863 00:31:21,450 --> 00:31:23,789 to know what you're doing against 864 00:31:23,790 --> 00:31:25,139 human rights. 865 00:31:25,140 --> 00:31:27,269 And so in the end, what can you 866 00:31:27,270 --> 00:31:28,619 do to take action? 867 00:31:28,620 --> 00:31:30,959 We would like to invite you to our 868 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,089 assembly and we will 869 00:31:33,090 --> 00:31:35,249 hold a self-organized session at 3:00 870 00:31:35,250 --> 00:31:37,379 p.m. at the noisy square and 871 00:31:37,380 --> 00:31:39,659 would like to discuss with you what 872 00:31:39,660 --> 00:31:42,119 we can do, how we can take part in 873 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:43,049 the movement 874 00:31:43,050 --> 00:31:44,279 and 875 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,289 what we can actually, 876 00:31:46,290 --> 00:31:47,069 um, 877 00:31:47,070 --> 00:31:48,689 how we can actually cooperate better 878 00:31:48,690 --> 00:31:51,059 together. Because I think at national 879 00:31:51,060 --> 00:31:53,909 level, we've done 880 00:31:53,910 --> 00:31:55,829 too little, too little to join our forces 881 00:31:57,270 --> 00:31:59,729 by now and we can do more. 882 00:31:59,730 --> 00:32:02,139 So I would like to cordially invited 883 00:32:02,140 --> 00:32:03,869 you to this session. 884 00:32:03,870 --> 00:32:04,199 And with 885 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:05,099 this, 886 00:32:05,100 --> 00:32:07,799 I think I'm already over time, so 887 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:08,039 I would 888 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,109 like to 889 00:32:10,110 --> 00:32:11,849 thank you all and 890 00:32:13,050 --> 00:32:15,929 hopefully see you soon at 3pm. 891 00:32:15,930 --> 00:32:16,930 Thank you.