0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Dear viewer, these subtitles were generated by a machine via the service Trint and therefore are (very) buggy. If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/714 Thanks! 1 00:00:17,910 --> 00:00:20,069 OK, so we want to talk 2 00:00:20,070 --> 00:00:22,159 a little bit about a very important 3 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:23,879 new case that I think everyone here 4 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,099 should be concerned about, and the 5 00:00:26,100 --> 00:00:28,409 legal case is officially titled 6 00:00:28,410 --> 00:00:30,899 Love versus the United States, 7 00:00:30,900 --> 00:00:32,849 because it's about a British computer 8 00:00:32,850 --> 00:00:35,099 scientist, an Occupy activist called 9 00:00:35,100 --> 00:00:37,169 Laurie Love, who 10 00:00:37,170 --> 00:00:38,879 you see on the screen. 11 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:40,829 But now it's gone. There you go. 12 00:00:40,830 --> 00:00:41,830 Who? 13 00:00:49,550 --> 00:00:51,079 So Jake and I have been friends of 14 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:53,209 Hillary for quite a while, and at the 15 00:00:53,210 --> 00:00:55,009 moment he's facing some very serious 16 00:00:55,010 --> 00:00:57,169 allegations from the United States 17 00:00:57,170 --> 00:00:59,629 where the FBI is trying to extradite him 18 00:00:59,630 --> 00:01:02,059 to face charges under the computer 19 00:01:02,060 --> 00:01:03,919 and under the Computer Fraud and Abuse 20 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,079 Act, where he could potentially be 21 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:07,710 facing up to 99 years in jail. 22 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:10,939 He's being accused of essentially taking 23 00:01:10,940 --> 00:01:13,099 part in a series of online protests 24 00:01:13,100 --> 00:01:15,079 called Operation Last Resort that 25 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,089 followed the persecution and death of 26 00:01:17,090 --> 00:01:18,920 Aaron Swartz, where in 27 00:01:20,030 --> 00:01:22,519 a website of the United States Sentencing 28 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:24,679 Commission was hacked and replaced 29 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,079 with a home page that allowed visitors 30 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:29,209 to play a game where they could control 31 00:01:29,210 --> 00:01:31,489 a missile and able nyan cat that allowed 32 00:01:31,490 --> 00:01:33,319 them to shoot chunks of text off the page 33 00:01:34,850 --> 00:01:35,850 and. 34 00:01:41,540 --> 00:01:43,429 So so Laurie was a long time friend of 35 00:01:43,430 --> 00:01:45,799 Aaron, and in fact, I first met Laurie 36 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,139 in an icy tunnel set up by around 15 37 00:01:48,140 --> 00:01:49,489 years ago. 38 00:01:49,490 --> 00:01:52,249 Laurie is currently being pursued by the 39 00:01:52,250 --> 00:01:53,599 Laurie is currently being pursued by the 40 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,909 US criminal justice system, worked for 41 00:01:55,910 --> 00:01:57,800 effectively protesting 42 00:01:59,540 --> 00:02:01,519 abuses of the same system. 43 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,679 And as protesters in three separate 44 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,109 US court districts accusing 45 00:02:06,110 --> 00:02:08,179 him of hacking into various governmental 46 00:02:08,180 --> 00:02:10,279 agencies, including NASA, the 47 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,409 US Army, the Federal Reserve and 48 00:02:12,410 --> 00:02:14,330 also the Environmental Protection Agency. 49 00:02:15,380 --> 00:02:17,149 And as a result of all of this, Laurie 50 00:02:17,150 --> 00:02:19,879 was arrested in October 2013 51 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,889 by the National Crime Agency, which is 52 00:02:21,890 --> 00:02:23,599 like the UK's equivalent to the FBI. 53 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:26,839 And nine months after that, his 54 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:28,489 police bail was allowed to expire. 55 00:02:28,490 --> 00:02:30,169 And he wasn't charged with anything 56 00:02:30,170 --> 00:02:31,579 because the National Enquirer Agency 57 00:02:31,580 --> 00:02:33,649 couldn't find any evidence of what 58 00:02:33,650 --> 00:02:35,629 the FBI was accusing him of. 59 00:02:35,630 --> 00:02:37,339 And of course, the FBI wasn't too happy 60 00:02:37,340 --> 00:02:38,899 about this because they were quite keen 61 00:02:38,900 --> 00:02:39,949 to press charges. 62 00:02:39,950 --> 00:02:42,349 So the FBI 63 00:02:42,350 --> 00:02:44,779 put in an extradition request 64 00:02:44,780 --> 00:02:46,969 and not just one extradition requests, 65 00:02:46,970 --> 00:02:49,129 but three separate requests from 66 00:02:49,130 --> 00:02:50,569 three separate districts. 67 00:02:50,570 --> 00:02:52,489 And this is actually just one of the ways 68 00:02:52,490 --> 00:02:54,799 that the FBI can abuse 69 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,899 the justice system in order to coerce 70 00:02:56,900 --> 00:02:59,119 defendants to enter a guilty plea, 71 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:00,529 even if they're not, even if they're 72 00:03:00,530 --> 00:03:01,530 innocent. 73 00:03:02,540 --> 00:03:04,279 So Lori's case actually has a pretty 74 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,469 interesting political significance here 75 00:03:06,470 --> 00:03:08,989 because his case is essentially a deja vu 76 00:03:08,990 --> 00:03:10,489 of another case that happened 10 years 77 00:03:10,490 --> 00:03:12,559 ago, 10 years ago. 78 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,599 The FBI also tried to extradite another 79 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:16,759 man called Gary McKinnon, who was 80 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:18,499 accused of hacking NSA. 81 00:03:18,500 --> 00:03:19,909 So what happened to Gary? 82 00:03:19,910 --> 00:03:21,769 He fought extradition battle for 10 83 00:03:21,770 --> 00:03:22,770 years. 84 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,099 And this raised a lot of interesting 85 00:03:25,100 --> 00:03:27,139 political questions in parliament because 86 00:03:27,140 --> 00:03:29,269 it revealed that the UK, US 87 00:03:29,270 --> 00:03:31,189 extradition treaty, extradition treaty 88 00:03:31,190 --> 00:03:33,739 was quite unbalanced, as in 89 00:03:33,740 --> 00:03:35,809 it's very one sided with the US. 90 00:03:35,810 --> 00:03:38,239 It's much easier for a British for the 91 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,369 US to extradite us, for 92 00:03:40,370 --> 00:03:42,439 the US to extract a UK person than 93 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,269 it is for the UK to extradite a US 94 00:03:44,270 --> 00:03:45,199 person. 95 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,629 And the reason for that is because 96 00:03:47,630 --> 00:03:50,149 for the US to put an extradition request, 97 00:03:50,150 --> 00:03:52,429 they don't even have to show any evidence 98 00:03:52,430 --> 00:03:54,559 or even present the case, which 99 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:55,999 is pretty insane because you'd think 100 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,099 that's the basic right to a 101 00:03:58,100 --> 00:03:59,749 fair trial, including the ability for a 102 00:03:59,750 --> 00:04:01,819 defendant to be able to view the case 103 00:04:01,820 --> 00:04:03,109 against them so that they can formulate a 104 00:04:03,110 --> 00:04:04,279 defense. 105 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,139 And the British parliament also agreed 106 00:04:06,140 --> 00:04:07,669 that this was unfair. 107 00:04:07,670 --> 00:04:09,919 So they campaigned on behalf 108 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,379 of Gary to 109 00:04:12,380 --> 00:04:13,459 change the law. 110 00:04:13,460 --> 00:04:14,460 And 111 00:04:15,530 --> 00:04:17,599 eventually, Theresa May, which was 112 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,759 the home secretary at the time, blocked 113 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:21,859 the extradition on the 114 00:04:21,860 --> 00:04:23,599 basis that it would be a human rights 115 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,939 violation because Gary 116 00:04:25,940 --> 00:04:27,769 had had a long and documented history of 117 00:04:27,770 --> 00:04:29,239 depression, anxiety through his whole 118 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,339 life. And he was also diagnosed with 119 00:04:31,340 --> 00:04:32,340 Asperger's. 120 00:04:33,830 --> 00:04:36,119 So sending him to a US prison in the UK 121 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,209 prison would have been inhumane because 122 00:04:38,210 --> 00:04:39,210 essentially it would have 123 00:04:40,610 --> 00:04:42,139 put him away from his family and the 124 00:04:42,140 --> 00:04:43,729 support system that essentially sustains 125 00:04:43,730 --> 00:04:45,919 him. And like Gary, Laurie also has 126 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:47,119 a long and documented history of 127 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:48,739 depression and is also diagnosed with 128 00:04:48,740 --> 00:04:50,809 Asperger's. So this case really is a deja 129 00:04:50,810 --> 00:04:52,610 vu of a case that happened 10 years ago. 130 00:04:54,170 --> 00:04:56,809 So after Gary's case, the law changed 131 00:04:56,810 --> 00:04:58,759 and Theresa May introduced a new piece of 132 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:00,739 legislation called the Foreign Bar. 133 00:05:00,740 --> 00:05:02,479 And the foreign bar was designed to 134 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,549 prevent cases like this from happening 135 00:05:04,550 --> 00:05:07,219 ever again, like it is now. 136 00:05:07,220 --> 00:05:09,909 And it created it 137 00:05:09,910 --> 00:05:11,569 essentially allowed the courts to block 138 00:05:11,570 --> 00:05:13,699 an extradition on the basis 139 00:05:13,700 --> 00:05:15,859 that the case 140 00:05:15,860 --> 00:05:17,959 can be heard in the UK and it has to be 141 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,369 had in the US, which is the case 142 00:05:20,370 --> 00:05:22,759 I will be talking about in a while 143 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,049 because we will prosecute 144 00:05:25,050 --> 00:05:27,229 in the UK, even though we were accused 145 00:05:27,230 --> 00:05:28,639 of hacking into a whole bunch of stuff in 146 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:29,869 the US. 147 00:05:29,870 --> 00:05:31,639 So there's no reason why Laurie can't be 148 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:32,640 tried in the U.K. 149 00:05:33,740 --> 00:05:35,539 But unfortunately, a few weeks ago the 150 00:05:35,540 --> 00:05:37,699 Magistrates Court in the UK 151 00:05:37,700 --> 00:05:39,949 actually approved Lawry's extradition. 152 00:05:39,950 --> 00:05:42,379 But it's not over because 153 00:05:42,380 --> 00:05:44,779 they thought there will still be appeals 154 00:05:45,910 --> 00:05:48,019 and this will at least go 155 00:05:48,020 --> 00:05:49,020 on for another two years. 156 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:51,290 And the reason why 157 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,009 they were able to accept it in this case, 158 00:05:55,010 --> 00:05:56,779 because after one after the foreign bar 159 00:05:56,780 --> 00:05:58,879 was introduced, the ability 160 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,189 for the home secretary to 161 00:06:01,190 --> 00:06:03,289 block an extradition on human rights 162 00:06:03,290 --> 00:06:04,849 basis was transferred to the courts 163 00:06:04,850 --> 00:06:06,259 instead of the home secretary. 164 00:06:06,260 --> 00:06:07,819 So the home secretary no longer has the 165 00:06:07,820 --> 00:06:09,889 power to do what she did 166 00:06:09,890 --> 00:06:10,890 in Gary's case. 167 00:06:11,930 --> 00:06:13,069 Now, the interesting thing about this 168 00:06:13,070 --> 00:06:14,839 case is that the judge in the case 169 00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:16,879 actually accepted that law, represented, 170 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,369 in her own words, a severe, substantial 171 00:06:19,370 --> 00:06:21,409 and high risk of suicide. 172 00:06:21,410 --> 00:06:23,689 But she didn't she didn't accept 173 00:06:23,690 --> 00:06:25,519 that the US prison systems don't have 174 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:27,289 adequate health care to deal with this, 175 00:06:27,290 --> 00:06:28,879 which is ridiculous because the US prison 176 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:30,949 systems are notorious worldwide for 177 00:06:30,950 --> 00:06:31,999 the way that they treat people with 178 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:33,049 mental health issues. 179 00:06:33,050 --> 00:06:35,119 So just as an example, 180 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,399 Chelsea Manning was in the news 181 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,419 a few months ago for her suicide attempt. 182 00:06:40,420 --> 00:06:41,649 What did the president do? 183 00:06:41,650 --> 00:06:43,089 Did they give her care? 184 00:06:43,090 --> 00:06:45,639 No. Instead, they disciplined her. 185 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,129 I sentenced her to solitary confinement 186 00:06:48,130 --> 00:06:49,479 because she committed she attempted 187 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,849 suicide in the U.K. 188 00:06:51,850 --> 00:06:53,619 The exact opposite would happen if you 189 00:06:53,620 --> 00:06:54,609 had mental health issues. 190 00:06:54,610 --> 00:06:56,589 You would be given more freedoms in 191 00:06:56,590 --> 00:06:58,989 yourself and and access 192 00:06:58,990 --> 00:07:01,119 to care rather than simply being locked 193 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:02,829 away in solitary confinement. 194 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:05,319 Now, there's been a lot of campaigning 195 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,509 work done for Lurrie by Naomi 196 00:07:07,510 --> 00:07:09,219 and the Courage Foundation, which has 197 00:07:09,220 --> 00:07:11,109 been doing some really incredible work. 198 00:07:11,110 --> 00:07:13,239 And thanks to the work, we have 199 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:14,739 one hundred and fourteen members of 200 00:07:14,740 --> 00:07:17,109 parliament on our side who have cosigned 201 00:07:17,110 --> 00:07:19,179 a letter to Barak Obama requesting 202 00:07:19,180 --> 00:07:21,279 him to reconsider 203 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:22,280 Lawrie's extradition. 204 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,549 Also, Laurie's case was brought up in 205 00:07:32,550 --> 00:07:33,869 parliament during prime minister's 206 00:07:33,870 --> 00:07:35,459 Question Time, which is a pretty great 207 00:07:35,460 --> 00:07:36,719 achievement, and I'm going to play the 208 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:37,720 video now. 209 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,069 A young man with Asperger's syndrome 210 00:07:49,070 --> 00:07:51,409 awaits extradition to the United States 211 00:07:51,410 --> 00:07:53,629 facing charges of computer 212 00:07:53,630 --> 00:07:55,789 hacking and is then likely to kill 213 00:07:55,790 --> 00:07:58,549 himself. It sounds familiar. 214 00:07:58,550 --> 00:08:00,479 He's not, of course, Gary McKinnon, who 215 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,629 was saved by the prime minister, 216 00:08:02,630 --> 00:08:04,849 but Larry Love, who faces, in effect, 217 00:08:04,850 --> 00:08:06,379 a death sentence. 218 00:08:06,380 --> 00:08:07,789 So when the prime minister introduced the 219 00:08:07,790 --> 00:08:09,949 former to, in her words, 220 00:08:09,950 --> 00:08:11,479 provide greater safeguards for 221 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:12,529 individuals. 222 00:08:12,530 --> 00:08:14,089 Surely she expected it to protect the 223 00:08:14,090 --> 00:08:16,009 vulnerable. Like Gary McKinnon. 224 00:08:16,010 --> 00:08:17,129 Like Larry Love. 225 00:08:17,130 --> 00:08:18,130 Yeah, 226 00:08:19,460 --> 00:08:21,169 the honorable gentleman, my honorable 227 00:08:21,170 --> 00:08:23,059 friend, obviously campaigned long and 228 00:08:23,060 --> 00:08:24,109 hard for Gary McKinnon. 229 00:08:24,110 --> 00:08:25,849 And obviously, I took that decision 230 00:08:25,850 --> 00:08:27,979 because at that time it was a decision 231 00:08:27,980 --> 00:08:30,139 for the home secretary to decide whether 232 00:08:30,140 --> 00:08:31,639 there was a human rights case for an 233 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:33,769 individual not to be extradited. 234 00:08:33,770 --> 00:08:35,599 We subsequently changed the legal 235 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,369 position on that. So this is now a matter 236 00:08:37,370 --> 00:08:38,538 for the courts. There are certain 237 00:08:38,539 --> 00:08:40,668 parameters that the courts look at 238 00:08:40,669 --> 00:08:42,589 in terms of the extradition decision, and 239 00:08:42,590 --> 00:08:43,819 that is then passed to the home 240 00:08:43,820 --> 00:08:45,649 secretary. But it is for the courts to 241 00:08:45,650 --> 00:08:47,749 determine the human rights aspects 242 00:08:47,750 --> 00:08:50,119 of of any case that comes forward. 243 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,179 It was right, I think, to introduce 244 00:08:53,180 --> 00:08:55,609 the former bar to make sure 245 00:08:55,610 --> 00:08:57,649 that there was that challenge for cases 246 00:08:57,650 --> 00:08:59,449 here in the United Kingdom as to whether 247 00:08:59,450 --> 00:09:01,039 they should be held here in the United 248 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,079 Kingdom. But the legal process is very 249 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:04,759 clear and the home secretary is part of 250 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:05,779 that legal process. 251 00:09:05,780 --> 00:09:06,780 And Koka. 252 00:09:09,710 --> 00:09:11,179 So, yeah, I mean I mean, that's pretty 253 00:09:11,180 --> 00:09:13,099 much a non answer, but at least it was 254 00:09:13,100 --> 00:09:14,100 brought up. 255 00:09:15,110 --> 00:09:16,699 Now, the reason why I'm personally so 256 00:09:16,700 --> 00:09:18,859 invested in this case, well, for 257 00:09:18,860 --> 00:09:20,179 a start, I believe that it's really 258 00:09:20,180 --> 00:09:22,039 important for our community to have 259 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:23,419 solidarity with technologists and 260 00:09:23,420 --> 00:09:25,699 activists who are facing injustices. 261 00:09:25,700 --> 00:09:26,700 But also, 262 00:09:28,250 --> 00:09:30,289 five years ago, there was a lot less 263 00:09:30,290 --> 00:09:32,569 support organizations supporting 264 00:09:32,570 --> 00:09:34,069 whistleblowers and hackers. 265 00:09:34,070 --> 00:09:35,359 If you are charged with the Computer 266 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:36,589 Fraud and Abuse Act, there weren't that 267 00:09:36,590 --> 00:09:38,749 many places that you could turn to to 268 00:09:38,750 --> 00:09:39,799 get support. 269 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:41,449 And there's this case that there's one 270 00:09:41,450 --> 00:09:43,549 case that's really close to my heart 271 00:09:43,550 --> 00:09:44,869 that I want everyone to know about 272 00:09:44,870 --> 00:09:46,789 because it's been completely forgotten 273 00:09:46,790 --> 00:09:48,229 and I think we've completely failed this 274 00:09:48,230 --> 00:09:49,230 person. 275 00:09:49,700 --> 00:09:52,009 So in 2012 276 00:09:52,010 --> 00:09:55,189 and AT&T employee could launch more 277 00:09:55,190 --> 00:09:57,349 committed suicide after he was charged by 278 00:09:57,350 --> 00:09:59,369 the FBI for leaking some documents. 279 00:09:59,370 --> 00:10:01,909 They had access to you from AT&T 280 00:10:01,910 --> 00:10:03,079 and he leaked these documents via 281 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:04,080 Anonymous. 282 00:10:04,700 --> 00:10:06,199 Now, despite the fact that there was no 283 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:07,609 hacking involved and he was leaking 284 00:10:07,610 --> 00:10:09,829 information that I had access to, the 285 00:10:09,830 --> 00:10:12,199 FBI charged him for hacking at AT&T, 286 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,329 which sets a pretty bad precedent for 287 00:10:14,330 --> 00:10:16,489 whistleblowers leaking information that 288 00:10:16,490 --> 00:10:17,869 they already had access to. 289 00:10:17,870 --> 00:10:18,870 Now, at that time, 290 00:10:20,150 --> 00:10:21,859 the Solidarity Committee for Hackers and 291 00:10:21,860 --> 00:10:23,779 Whistleblowers was a lot smaller. 292 00:10:23,780 --> 00:10:25,759 The Courage Foundation didn't exist and 293 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,859 there wasn't really no one reached out to 294 00:10:27,860 --> 00:10:29,629 him and there was no natural place for 295 00:10:29,630 --> 00:10:30,630 him to reach out to you. 296 00:10:31,820 --> 00:10:33,979 But what really gets me about this case 297 00:10:33,980 --> 00:10:35,449 is that in hindsight, he would've 298 00:10:35,450 --> 00:10:37,669 actually eventually has been found not 299 00:10:37,670 --> 00:10:39,949 guilty because the FBI 300 00:10:39,950 --> 00:10:42,019 also prosecuted, prosecuted 301 00:10:42,020 --> 00:10:44,089 one other person with for hacking 302 00:10:44,090 --> 00:10:46,249 AT&T, and he was eventually 303 00:10:46,250 --> 00:10:48,409 acquitted in 2014 because 304 00:10:48,410 --> 00:10:50,179 the FBI didn't have a case against him 305 00:10:50,180 --> 00:10:51,379 because of technicalities. 306 00:10:52,430 --> 00:10:54,619 Now, the exact same thing probably 307 00:10:54,620 --> 00:10:55,879 would have happened to Lance because the 308 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,249 details of the case are very similar. 309 00:10:58,250 --> 00:11:00,169 But sadly, he never lived to be able to 310 00:11:00,170 --> 00:11:01,219 see this. 311 00:11:01,220 --> 00:11:02,629 And finally, Lance Moore was completely 312 00:11:02,630 --> 00:11:04,579 forgotten and there's been no mentions 313 00:11:04,580 --> 00:11:05,929 and no news articles about him 314 00:11:05,930 --> 00:11:06,889 whatsoever. 315 00:11:06,890 --> 00:11:08,179 And that's why I think it's really 316 00:11:08,180 --> 00:11:09,949 important for us to build a loud and 317 00:11:09,950 --> 00:11:12,589 visible solidarity movement 318 00:11:12,590 --> 00:11:14,389 for hackers and whistleblowers so that if 319 00:11:14,390 --> 00:11:15,859 anyone finds themselves in trouble in the 320 00:11:15,860 --> 00:11:17,479 future, they will always know that they 321 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:19,640 will have someone to look out for them. 322 00:11:28,570 --> 00:11:30,279 I hand it over to Naomi from the Recovery 323 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:31,809 Foundation, who's going to talk a little 324 00:11:31,810 --> 00:11:34,329 bit about the importance of Laura's case. 325 00:11:34,330 --> 00:11:35,649 Thank you for that. 326 00:11:35,650 --> 00:11:37,619 You're normally asked to care about 327 00:11:37,620 --> 00:11:40,269 hacker prosecution cases because here is 328 00:11:40,270 --> 00:11:41,379 someone who's really great. 329 00:11:41,380 --> 00:11:42,969 A really horrible thing is happening to 330 00:11:42,970 --> 00:11:44,619 and we it's right and proper that we 331 00:11:44,620 --> 00:11:45,819 should care when horrible things are 332 00:11:45,820 --> 00:11:46,929 happening to great people. 333 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,469 Larry is a great person, and everybody 334 00:11:50,470 --> 00:11:52,419 who uses encryption in the United Kingdom 335 00:11:52,420 --> 00:11:53,949 owes him a debt of gratitude for 336 00:11:53,950 --> 00:11:55,509 defeating a national crime agency in 337 00:11:55,510 --> 00:11:56,529 court earlier this year. 338 00:11:57,610 --> 00:11:59,229 The NCA. We're putting forward a novel 339 00:11:59,230 --> 00:12:01,359 legal theory that any effectively 340 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,129 no one had a right to property that law 341 00:12:03,130 --> 00:12:04,720 enforcement could not then read, 342 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,279 which thanks to Larry, was was 343 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,649 turned back. And so we avoided a 344 00:12:11,650 --> 00:12:13,599 disaster there, a victory for the privacy 345 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:15,519 rights of vanishingly rare in the U.K. 346 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:16,659 and that was an important one. 347 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:19,929 Solidarity is an unambiguously good 348 00:12:19,930 --> 00:12:22,419 thing, and Larry definitely 349 00:12:22,420 --> 00:12:23,829 deserves your solidarity. 350 00:12:23,830 --> 00:12:25,509 But this case is also more important than 351 00:12:25,510 --> 00:12:26,510 you think. 352 00:12:27,700 --> 00:12:29,769 I want to explain why everybody 353 00:12:29,770 --> 00:12:31,179 in this room should care about Larry's 354 00:12:31,180 --> 00:12:32,709 case, not just because it's the right 355 00:12:32,710 --> 00:12:34,269 thing to do and you should be generous, 356 00:12:34,270 --> 00:12:35,289 but because of your out of your 357 00:12:35,290 --> 00:12:36,479 self-interest as well. 358 00:12:38,350 --> 00:12:39,999 There are several grand narratives in the 359 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:41,619 community that come up again and again at 360 00:12:41,620 --> 00:12:42,639 Congress. 361 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:43,989 One of those which I think we've heard a 362 00:12:43,990 --> 00:12:46,089 lot about in recent years, probably with 363 00:12:46,090 --> 00:12:47,919 misplaced optimism, in my opinion, is 364 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:49,149 that the hacking community is better with 365 00:12:49,150 --> 00:12:52,089 surveillance and for privacy rights. 366 00:12:52,090 --> 00:12:54,249 And I'm sure a lot of us remember 367 00:12:54,250 --> 00:12:56,499 OPCON gripes talk about a decade 368 00:12:56,500 --> 00:12:57,999 ago when he said that we lost the war, 369 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,369 meaning the war on mass surveillance. 370 00:13:00,370 --> 00:13:01,929 And I think we're all far too familiar 371 00:13:01,930 --> 00:13:03,849 with another war, and that is the war on 372 00:13:03,850 --> 00:13:06,219 hackers and hacking by law enforcement. 373 00:13:06,220 --> 00:13:07,749 That is a war where the creative approach 374 00:13:07,750 --> 00:13:09,849 to and use of systems is marginalized 375 00:13:09,850 --> 00:13:11,469 and pathologies as criminal by 376 00:13:11,470 --> 00:13:13,269 governments and law enforcement agencies. 377 00:13:13,270 --> 00:13:15,039 And then that word hacker itself is used 378 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,439 to mean something cruel and dangerous. 379 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:19,149 It's a war that disproportionately 380 00:13:19,150 --> 00:13:21,489 affects the neuro divergent. 381 00:13:21,490 --> 00:13:24,099 So it's a war not just on what people do 382 00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:25,929 and not just don't want people think, but 383 00:13:25,930 --> 00:13:27,159 also how they think. 384 00:13:30,790 --> 00:13:32,529 I'm afraid to say that I think we're at 385 00:13:32,530 --> 00:13:34,639 risk of losing that war, too, and now 386 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,669 this case is absolutely pivotal to that. 387 00:13:38,230 --> 00:13:39,939 If we don't manage to keep Larry in the 388 00:13:39,940 --> 00:13:41,889 United Kingdom and a transnational 389 00:13:41,890 --> 00:13:43,899 extradition regime is established, that 390 00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:45,789 means that all hackers well, anyone who 391 00:13:45,790 --> 00:13:47,679 does anything interesting with computers 392 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:49,239 is potentially subject to the laws and 393 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,309 penalties of the worst legal regime of 394 00:13:51,310 --> 00:13:53,349 the lot, regardless of where they live. 395 00:13:53,350 --> 00:13:54,879 And that legal regime is, of course, the 396 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:55,880 United States. 397 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:58,959 We all know how bad the criminal justice 398 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:00,099 system is. 399 00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:02,139 We all know that the criminal justice 400 00:14:02,140 --> 00:14:03,639 system in the United States is bad. 401 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:05,619 Maybe we forget sometimes just how bad it 402 00:14:05,620 --> 00:14:06,620 is. 403 00:14:07,690 --> 00:14:09,159 The United States has the highest per 404 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:10,929 capita prison prison population in the 405 00:14:10,930 --> 00:14:13,479 world. And tonight, 406 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:14,799 tens of thousands, probably hundreds of 407 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,199 thousands of people are spending that 408 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:18,549 their time in solitary confinement. 409 00:14:19,750 --> 00:14:21,369 Over 90 percent of defendants in the 410 00:14:21,370 --> 00:14:22,809 United States are coerced into pleading 411 00:14:22,810 --> 00:14:24,159 guilty or the threat of ridiculous 412 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:25,749 sentences. 413 00:14:25,750 --> 00:14:27,849 I'm not I wonder sometimes how we can 414 00:14:27,850 --> 00:14:29,619 talk about fair trials when the reality 415 00:14:29,620 --> 00:14:31,389 is that a vanishingly small number of 416 00:14:31,390 --> 00:14:33,070 people ever receive a trial at all. 417 00:14:34,970 --> 00:14:37,369 Lowry is almost uniquely facing 418 00:14:37,370 --> 00:14:39,379 charges in three separate US court 419 00:14:39,380 --> 00:14:41,449 districts, which amount to 420 00:14:41,450 --> 00:14:43,849 a potential sentence of some 99 years. 421 00:14:43,850 --> 00:14:45,679 That's ninety nine years for alleged acts 422 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,269 of political speech that pertain to the 423 00:14:47,270 --> 00:14:49,369 actions of US prosecutors. 424 00:14:49,370 --> 00:14:51,019 So US prosecutors are now trying to 425 00:14:51,020 --> 00:14:53,329 absolutely crush Larry love. 426 00:14:53,330 --> 00:14:54,379 It's not subtle. 427 00:14:58,470 --> 00:14:59,879 The situation, the United States is not 428 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:02,039 going away for Larry or for anyone, I 429 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,169 find it kind of difficult to imagine 430 00:15:04,170 --> 00:15:06,269 a moment would have been more propitious 431 00:15:06,270 --> 00:15:07,589 for reform of the Computer Fraud and 432 00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:08,759 Abuse Act than Aaron Swartz. 433 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:09,809 His death. 434 00:15:09,810 --> 00:15:11,129 And although the shockwaves are heard, 435 00:15:11,130 --> 00:15:12,470 word across the world and 436 00:15:14,730 --> 00:15:16,239 representations were made in Congress, 437 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,569 nothing happened. I think we should write 438 00:15:18,570 --> 00:15:20,909 off legal reform in the United States 439 00:15:20,910 --> 00:15:22,609 as a possibility in the near term. 440 00:15:28,630 --> 00:15:30,399 The CFA, as many of us know, gives 441 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,409 prosecutors extremely wide discretion. 442 00:15:32,410 --> 00:15:34,239 US prosecutors collect hacker skins as 443 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:35,559 trophies, and that's because their career 444 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,449 making prosecutions. 445 00:15:37,450 --> 00:15:38,889 And if we do allow trans national 446 00:15:38,890 --> 00:15:41,079 jurisdictions in these kind of cases 447 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,149 to become a regular thing, everybody here 448 00:15:43,150 --> 00:15:45,519 is potentially Extraditables 449 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:47,229 to us on the whim of an American 450 00:15:47,230 --> 00:15:48,549 prosecutor who wants to build their 451 00:15:48,550 --> 00:15:50,199 career and risks. No consequences for 452 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:51,839 making allegations that don't stack up. 453 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:54,949 Remember that the US does not have to 454 00:15:54,950 --> 00:15:57,319 present any evidence to extradite Lowry, 455 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:58,909 the entire court proceeding in Larrys 456 00:15:58,910 --> 00:16:00,589 extradition case is taking place on the 457 00:16:00,590 --> 00:16:02,749 basis of allegations only no 458 00:16:02,750 --> 00:16:05,029 evidence is ever presented. 459 00:16:05,030 --> 00:16:06,919 This is a win based justice system. 460 00:16:08,030 --> 00:16:09,409 And even if he thought a win based 461 00:16:09,410 --> 00:16:11,389 justice system was just about OK under a 462 00:16:11,390 --> 00:16:13,099 philosopher king like Barack Obama, 463 00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:14,449 although if you do think that we might 464 00:16:14,450 --> 00:16:16,549 have to have words later, how do 465 00:16:16,550 --> 00:16:17,569 you think that's going to work under 466 00:16:17,570 --> 00:16:19,130 Donald Trump's Department of Justice? 467 00:16:20,870 --> 00:16:22,610 I'll just leave that one for a second. 468 00:16:25,350 --> 00:16:27,359 And as Mustapha explained, we've had a 469 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:28,859 close escape with this kind of thing 470 00:16:28,860 --> 00:16:31,079 before Gary McKinnon was 471 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:32,939 that was the test case for the bilateral 472 00:16:32,940 --> 00:16:34,679 extradition treaty between the UK and the 473 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,809 US and that concluded computer crimes 474 00:16:36,810 --> 00:16:38,909 just because the US was unhappy about how 475 00:16:38,910 --> 00:16:40,499 the UK had handled a couple of hacker 476 00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:42,299 prosecutions in the 1990s. 477 00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:44,099 That's all it is. 478 00:16:44,100 --> 00:16:46,139 So after securing the law, US prosecutors 479 00:16:46,140 --> 00:16:48,809 try to establish the precedent with Gary. 480 00:16:48,810 --> 00:16:50,039 They failed, but only just. 481 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:51,569 And it took a 10 year battle of, you 482 00:16:51,570 --> 00:16:54,029 know, almost unparalleled 483 00:16:54,030 --> 00:16:55,200 ferocity to stop it. 484 00:16:57,180 --> 00:16:58,679 A subsequent change in the law, which I 485 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:00,269 am going to insist on calling Theresa 486 00:17:00,270 --> 00:17:01,649 May's foreign bar, was supposed to 487 00:17:01,650 --> 00:17:03,209 prevent cases like this ever happening 488 00:17:03,210 --> 00:17:05,338 again. And it forms the immediate context 489 00:17:05,339 --> 00:17:06,959 of Larry LAVs legal defense in the United 490 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:08,189 Kingdom. 491 00:17:08,190 --> 00:17:09,479 But in September of Westminster 492 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,129 Magistrates Court, it fell at the first 493 00:17:11,130 --> 00:17:12,130 hurdle. 494 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,479 We're now waiting to hear whether an 495 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,818 appeal will be allowed to go ahead and if 496 00:17:17,819 --> 00:17:19,229 it is, we can expect that to happen 497 00:17:19,230 --> 00:17:21,419 towards the middle of next year. 498 00:17:21,420 --> 00:17:24,358 We really need to keep Larry in the UK 499 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:25,919 because the precedent of his extradition 500 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,049 will not easily be turned back as 501 00:17:28,050 --> 00:17:29,969 Brexit. Britain is about to find out 502 00:17:29,970 --> 00:17:31,859 transnational legal regimes are very hard 503 00:17:31,860 --> 00:17:33,480 to turn back once established. 504 00:17:36,110 --> 00:17:38,899 A new transnational regime of 505 00:17:38,900 --> 00:17:40,879 America's global jurisdiction over the 506 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,319 Internet and the regime of criminal law 507 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:43,669 as it pertains to hackers is going to be 508 00:17:43,670 --> 00:17:45,289 similarly difficult to extricate 509 00:17:45,290 --> 00:17:46,699 ourselves from if it's allowed to be 510 00:17:46,700 --> 00:17:47,629 built. 511 00:17:47,630 --> 00:17:49,009 And that is why this case is more 512 00:17:49,010 --> 00:17:50,179 important than you think. 513 00:17:50,180 --> 00:17:51,379 And its outcome has the potential to 514 00:17:51,380 --> 00:17:53,259 affect everybody in this room and will 515 00:17:53,260 --> 00:17:54,679 have far reaching implications, which we 516 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,059 are going to find it very difficult to 517 00:17:56,060 --> 00:17:57,060 reverse in the future. 518 00:18:00,050 --> 00:18:02,299 So I'm calling on everybody here and 519 00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:03,679 everybody who's watching on Livestream to 520 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,539 please, if not out of solidarity with 521 00:18:05,540 --> 00:18:07,249 Larry, who incidentally, is a wonderful 522 00:18:07,250 --> 00:18:09,229 person who should feel solidarity with 523 00:18:09,230 --> 00:18:11,179 and he deserves your support, if not out 524 00:18:11,180 --> 00:18:12,619 of solidarity with Larry, than please 525 00:18:12,620 --> 00:18:14,179 just think of yourself and your comrades 526 00:18:14,180 --> 00:18:15,919 in your community and please help us save 527 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,049 Larry, because if we don't save Larry, 528 00:18:18,050 --> 00:18:19,759 we will not be able to save ourselves. 529 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:20,760 Thank you. 530 00:18:30,170 --> 00:18:31,399 And I'll hand over to Jake. 531 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,719 Hi, this is what 532 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:35,059 I'm going to speak. Just very briefly, 533 00:18:35,060 --> 00:18:37,459 before we get Larry on himself 534 00:18:37,460 --> 00:18:39,019 a little bit about extradition and then a 535 00:18:39,020 --> 00:18:40,609 sort of pretentious statement about how 536 00:18:40,610 --> 00:18:41,610 great Larry is. 537 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,899 So so 538 00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:47,839 the first time Mr. and I met in real life 539 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,239 was in the dock of court, 540 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:51,829 having both been arrested for involvement 541 00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:52,429 in Anonymous. 542 00:18:52,430 --> 00:18:54,619 And also the only reason we're able 543 00:18:54,620 --> 00:18:56,329 to sit here today 544 00:18:57,500 --> 00:18:58,969 next to each other is we weren't 545 00:18:58,970 --> 00:19:00,799 extradited to the United States, even 546 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,959 though at one point there was talk of it. 547 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,329 We were prosecuted, sentenced in the UK, 548 00:19:06,670 --> 00:19:08,119 received two years, suspended prison 549 00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:09,439 sentence. I received a two year prison 550 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,749 sentence, though, 551 00:19:11,750 --> 00:19:13,279 if extradition had been sought. 552 00:19:16,100 --> 00:19:17,629 And it had been successful. 553 00:19:17,630 --> 00:19:19,729 I'm sure we'd still be unable 554 00:19:19,730 --> 00:19:21,769 to do the things we do today, we'd be 555 00:19:21,770 --> 00:19:24,289 locked in a very tiny cell, 556 00:19:24,290 --> 00:19:25,290 but now we're 557 00:19:26,490 --> 00:19:28,549 functional members of society, paying 558 00:19:28,550 --> 00:19:29,550 taxes and the like. 559 00:19:31,220 --> 00:19:33,619 And Larry should be able to have the same 560 00:19:33,620 --> 00:19:35,209 the opportunity to be, to be, to be tried 561 00:19:35,210 --> 00:19:36,499 in the country in which he lives, in 562 00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:38,689 which he was arrested and his loved 563 00:19:38,690 --> 00:19:39,649 one lives. 564 00:19:39,650 --> 00:19:41,959 So said 565 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:43,459 pretentious statement about Larry. 566 00:19:44,750 --> 00:19:46,459 So I do. I vividly remember the first 567 00:19:46,460 --> 00:19:49,909 time I met Larry Love 2014. 568 00:19:49,910 --> 00:19:51,889 It was in the middle of the busy London 569 00:19:51,890 --> 00:19:54,079 Kings Cross train station, and 570 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,509 he introduced himself by way of wheeling 571 00:19:56,510 --> 00:19:58,189 into the back of my legs with a giant 572 00:19:58,190 --> 00:20:00,319 boombox trolley system that was 573 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,959 blasting a reggae jungle playlist. 574 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:04,339 We were meeting as a group of security 575 00:20:04,340 --> 00:20:05,839 researchers and ex hackers. 576 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,089 Some of us knew each other online and 577 00:20:08,090 --> 00:20:09,979 we were meeting for the first time in the 578 00:20:09,980 --> 00:20:11,869 real world for the previous 12 months 579 00:20:11,870 --> 00:20:14,449 between 2013 and 2014. 580 00:20:14,450 --> 00:20:16,129 I had been legally banned from speaking 581 00:20:16,130 --> 00:20:18,319 to anyone in Anonymous, which was 582 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,539 difficult to moderate on the basis 583 00:20:20,540 --> 00:20:22,099 that everyone and no one is anonymous, 584 00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:23,419 apparently. 585 00:20:23,420 --> 00:20:25,519 So that was a fun year, but it 586 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:27,349 was fascinating and terrifying prospect 587 00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:29,539 then to meet people in the real 588 00:20:29,540 --> 00:20:30,589 world. 589 00:20:30,590 --> 00:20:32,209 That had meant that we had just known 590 00:20:32,210 --> 00:20:34,579 online, Larry, being 591 00:20:34,580 --> 00:20:35,149 there. 592 00:20:35,150 --> 00:20:37,249 He he provided an enthusiasm and 593 00:20:37,250 --> 00:20:39,649 energy that and which was immediately 594 00:20:39,650 --> 00:20:40,650 contagious. 595 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,789 And I learned that he has the look 596 00:20:43,790 --> 00:20:46,009 and demeanor of of someone who's 597 00:20:46,010 --> 00:20:48,289 always thinking of the well-being and 598 00:20:48,290 --> 00:20:49,909 happiness of others around him. 599 00:20:49,910 --> 00:20:52,039 And simultaneously, you may have caught 600 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:53,059 a glimpse of it in the livestream. 601 00:20:53,060 --> 00:20:55,429 He has this sort of subtle 602 00:20:55,430 --> 00:20:57,289 glimmer that suggests he's in on a very 603 00:20:57,290 --> 00:20:59,089 funny joke that no one else can ever hope 604 00:20:59,090 --> 00:21:00,090 to conceive of. 605 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,409 But he can also consume 606 00:21:03,410 --> 00:21:04,849 pints of beer at a staggeringly 607 00:21:04,850 --> 00:21:06,169 impressive rate. You may have seen some 608 00:21:06,170 --> 00:21:08,239 of that going down in the 609 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:09,619 stream. 610 00:21:09,620 --> 00:21:11,150 So the last time I met Larry, 611 00:21:12,530 --> 00:21:13,859 the it's the second time. 612 00:21:13,860 --> 00:21:15,229 So it was at this conference two years 613 00:21:15,230 --> 00:21:16,400 ago, 31 CE three. 614 00:21:17,570 --> 00:21:19,879 And if you talk to him even briefly, I'm 615 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:20,839 sure you'll remember him in the 616 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,099 conversation. 617 00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:24,199 He has the ability to effortlessly 618 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,119 span so many different genres of 619 00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:27,979 information security weaving. 620 00:21:27,980 --> 00:21:30,379 He weaves inconceivably 621 00:21:30,380 --> 00:21:32,719 fascinating politics, philosophy, 622 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:34,879 comedy and complex technical concepts 623 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:36,859 into these beautifully crafted and highly 624 00:21:36,860 --> 00:21:39,619 memorable advice and ideas. 625 00:21:39,620 --> 00:21:41,179 He collaborated with so many people here 626 00:21:41,180 --> 00:21:43,159 two years ago that I thought there were 627 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,319 there wasn't one but 10 Larrys just off 628 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:46,999 and all parts of the center dispensing 629 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:48,019 wisdom to everyone. 630 00:21:48,020 --> 00:21:50,089 Absolutely remarkable, remarkable 631 00:21:50,090 --> 00:21:52,219 person, and really brought a sense 632 00:21:52,220 --> 00:21:54,739 of joy here. 633 00:21:54,740 --> 00:21:56,779 And that joy spreading continued. 634 00:21:56,780 --> 00:21:57,799 And around three a.m. 635 00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:59,539 when he and I and Mustafa and several 636 00:21:59,540 --> 00:22:01,759 others got lost on the streets of Hamburg 637 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:03,049 trying to find our way back to our 638 00:22:03,050 --> 00:22:04,050 hostel. 639 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:08,809 And he inspired us endlessly throughout 640 00:22:08,810 --> 00:22:11,089 our stay. And it's it's it's depressing 641 00:22:11,090 --> 00:22:14,509 to that's such an absurd situation 642 00:22:14,510 --> 00:22:15,799 means you can't be here today 643 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:18,600 with us. 644 00:22:19,370 --> 00:22:20,749 And what I've what I've learned since 645 00:22:20,750 --> 00:22:22,849 then, since hanging out with Larry 646 00:22:22,850 --> 00:22:24,409 and being around him in so many different 647 00:22:24,410 --> 00:22:25,699 types of situation from, 648 00:22:26,870 --> 00:22:28,099 you know, being completely out of our 649 00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:30,289 minds at festivals to sitting 650 00:22:30,290 --> 00:22:31,819 down with members of the UK government 651 00:22:31,820 --> 00:22:33,049 trying to convince them that our 652 00:22:33,050 --> 00:22:35,419 extradition relationship with the US is 653 00:22:35,420 --> 00:22:37,249 flawed and corrupt. 654 00:22:37,250 --> 00:22:38,869 And we heard from most of his video that 655 00:22:40,550 --> 00:22:42,619 to watching Larry sit 656 00:22:42,620 --> 00:22:43,760 in a court dock. 657 00:22:45,260 --> 00:22:47,569 As prosecutors berated 658 00:22:47,570 --> 00:22:48,570 him, 659 00:22:49,850 --> 00:22:51,749 sitting, making origami, beautiful 660 00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:53,989 origami as a coping mechanism, 661 00:22:53,990 --> 00:22:55,130 I've learned through all of this that 662 00:22:57,170 --> 00:22:58,170 Larry is 663 00:22:59,630 --> 00:23:01,749 he is Larry, he 664 00:23:02,940 --> 00:23:05,029 he has a oh, 665 00:23:05,030 --> 00:23:06,030 there we go. 666 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,009 This is not printed correctly. 667 00:23:10,010 --> 00:23:11,029 It's printed. 668 00:23:11,030 --> 00:23:12,380 It's actually printed backwards. 669 00:23:13,910 --> 00:23:16,379 How is how have words printed backwards? 670 00:23:16,380 --> 00:23:18,439 Most of it. This year I 671 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:19,910 started reading the next sentence. 672 00:23:21,260 --> 00:23:22,789 I began reading and it's literally 673 00:23:22,790 --> 00:23:25,549 backwards. I have to read it in reverse. 674 00:23:25,550 --> 00:23:27,709 And I've picked 675 00:23:27,710 --> 00:23:28,749 my paper has been hacked. 676 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,779 No, that's 677 00:23:33,780 --> 00:23:34,829 OK. 678 00:23:34,830 --> 00:23:36,839 Well done, whoever hacked my paper is 679 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,519 fine, looks fine. 680 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,739 No, it's fine. Yeah, just yeah, 681 00:23:40,740 --> 00:23:41,740 just read it. 682 00:23:43,230 --> 00:23:44,159 Well, it's fine. 683 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,049 Well, yeah. 684 00:23:46,050 --> 00:23:48,299 Take a look. Larry is 685 00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:49,349 really backwards. 686 00:23:49,350 --> 00:23:52,199 Larry is open, honest, compassionate. 687 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,269 He's capable of adapting 688 00:23:54,270 --> 00:23:56,459 and making the best of any situation. 689 00:23:56,460 --> 00:23:58,769 He always, always adds value 690 00:23:58,770 --> 00:24:01,349 to any project, idea or social dynamic. 691 00:24:01,350 --> 00:24:03,419 And, you know, it's absurd to remove that 692 00:24:03,420 --> 00:24:04,469 talent from society. 693 00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:05,609 And it's meaningless. 694 00:24:05,610 --> 00:24:07,529 It's completely illogical. 695 00:24:07,530 --> 00:24:09,569 Someone in power needs to just make the 696 00:24:09,570 --> 00:24:11,069 extradition request go away and give him 697 00:24:11,070 --> 00:24:12,269 a job, basically. 698 00:24:17,650 --> 00:24:19,779 Because people like Larry 699 00:24:19,780 --> 00:24:21,519 have helped to secure things that most 700 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:22,779 people would be shocked to learn, we're 701 00:24:22,780 --> 00:24:24,939 even vulnerable to begin with. 702 00:24:24,940 --> 00:24:27,039 And he is right now, this day, 703 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,049 helping to make the digital world a safer 704 00:24:29,050 --> 00:24:30,429 place for everyone. 705 00:24:30,430 --> 00:24:32,469 And there's a real irony to it than 706 00:24:33,490 --> 00:24:35,769 locking Lowry away genuinely 707 00:24:35,770 --> 00:24:36,999 makes it easier for the critical 708 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,139 infrastructure of the U.K. 709 00:24:38,140 --> 00:24:40,749 and other countries to be compromised. 710 00:24:40,750 --> 00:24:42,129 And it's ridiculous to think that any 711 00:24:42,130 --> 00:24:43,899 benefit can come from shipping someone 712 00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:45,609 away to a dark room in another country 713 00:24:45,610 --> 00:24:46,749 far from their loved ones. 714 00:24:48,390 --> 00:24:49,390 Most often I 715 00:24:50,500 --> 00:24:51,819 would drag through the legal system for 716 00:24:51,820 --> 00:24:52,820 hacking. 717 00:24:53,570 --> 00:24:55,269 And as I say, we now contribute to 718 00:24:55,270 --> 00:24:57,909 society, to society in our own ways. 719 00:24:57,910 --> 00:24:59,739 Having been dealt with in the U.K., our 720 00:24:59,740 --> 00:25:00,740 own country. 721 00:25:01,900 --> 00:25:03,999 No extradition was formally sought for 722 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,309 us, nor has it for countless other 723 00:25:06,310 --> 00:25:08,709 UK hackers and nearly every single one. 724 00:25:08,710 --> 00:25:10,839 But it has been for Larry, and that seems 725 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,369 to come from a place of vengeance, more 726 00:25:12,370 --> 00:25:13,370 than justice. 727 00:25:14,470 --> 00:25:16,239 And there are so many people that should 728 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:17,529 be here right now. 729 00:25:17,530 --> 00:25:19,959 Jeremy Hammond, Chelsea Manning, 730 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,149 Edward Snowden, Barry Brown, Larry Love, 731 00:25:22,150 --> 00:25:23,919 of course, and many others. 732 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,409 These remarkable, 733 00:25:26,410 --> 00:25:28,299 fiercely intelligent people don't deserve 734 00:25:28,300 --> 00:25:30,189 to be crammed into some tiny prison cell 735 00:25:30,190 --> 00:25:32,109 for years or barred from entering or 736 00:25:32,110 --> 00:25:33,219 leaving their own countries. 737 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:35,979 And they shouldn't even be here via some 738 00:25:35,980 --> 00:25:38,499 dodgy video link. 739 00:25:38,500 --> 00:25:40,239 But they should be physically here at the 740 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,639 conference listening to talks, 741 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,259 dancing in the disco lounge till 4:00 742 00:25:44,260 --> 00:25:45,279 a.m. 743 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,259 and sitting with friends and colleagues, 744 00:25:47,260 --> 00:25:49,779 enjoying a nice, 745 00:25:49,780 --> 00:25:52,119 cool, crisp club matter. 746 00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:54,729 So I'd like to, on that note, 747 00:25:54,730 --> 00:25:57,489 raise a club matter to those people 748 00:25:57,490 --> 00:25:58,989 and others around the world that are 749 00:25:58,990 --> 00:26:00,999 facing the unjust wrath, wrath of the US 750 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,889 government and its corrupt, overreaching 751 00:26:02,890 --> 00:26:04,959 intelligence agencies and thank them 752 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,089 for being brave and fighting 753 00:26:07,090 --> 00:26:08,559 and know that we'll keep fighting for 754 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:09,249 them. 755 00:26:09,250 --> 00:26:10,839 Thank you. And now we'll go to Larry. 756 00:26:19,550 --> 00:26:22,009 So, no, we will hand over to Larry. 757 00:26:22,010 --> 00:26:23,010 All right, Larry. 758 00:26:24,980 --> 00:26:25,980 If 759 00:26:27,870 --> 00:26:28,870 it's. 760 00:26:36,060 --> 00:26:37,060 A lot of that. 761 00:26:48,050 --> 00:26:49,050 Yes. 762 00:26:52,030 --> 00:26:54,199 All right, well, and 763 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:55,640 also how much I need to. 764 00:26:58,820 --> 00:27:00,569 OK, I'll just get myself to the. 765 00:27:05,070 --> 00:27:06,959 OK, so I was just hearing the feedback of 766 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,819 myself asking if you could give me 20 767 00:27:08,820 --> 00:27:11,249 seconds so 768 00:27:11,250 --> 00:27:13,189 there's not huge I really need to add to 769 00:27:13,190 --> 00:27:14,190 that. 770 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,769 Well, it's fairly minor stuff. 771 00:27:16,770 --> 00:27:19,139 And Jake and me, who have been 772 00:27:19,140 --> 00:27:21,179 fantastic at their support, and 773 00:27:21,180 --> 00:27:23,609 especially in the Koch Foundation, 774 00:27:23,610 --> 00:27:25,739 a little crazy. 775 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:32,320 So 776 00:27:33,610 --> 00:27:35,100 I just want to 777 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:42,759 say, what is this about? 778 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,879 And I would to 779 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,039 my friends and family, loved ones, 780 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,739 they don't want to see the 781 00:27:49,740 --> 00:27:52,049 country locked up, probably 782 00:27:52,050 --> 00:27:55,169 for the rest of my life, but tragically 783 00:27:55,170 --> 00:27:56,699 of violence, 784 00:27:57,780 --> 00:27:58,780 somebody else's 785 00:28:00,060 --> 00:28:00,989 people. 786 00:28:00,990 --> 00:28:03,239 And for the US, it's 787 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,970 about making an example 788 00:28:07,770 --> 00:28:10,529 of long term persecution 789 00:28:10,530 --> 00:28:13,199 of hackers, inflation, 790 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,929 transparency, this and 791 00:28:15,930 --> 00:28:18,210 so kind of especially online. 792 00:28:19,980 --> 00:28:22,080 I would like to see 793 00:28:23,730 --> 00:28:25,859 better things to contribute to the 794 00:28:25,860 --> 00:28:27,209 world. 795 00:28:27,210 --> 00:28:28,500 Study engineering. 796 00:28:29,590 --> 00:28:30,590 I do. 797 00:28:34,250 --> 00:28:37,169 I take an interest in politics, 798 00:28:37,170 --> 00:28:39,449 take an interest in the 799 00:28:39,450 --> 00:28:40,679 civilization. So I think 800 00:28:41,790 --> 00:28:42,790 of it is 801 00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:46,339 indefinitely into the future. 802 00:28:46,340 --> 00:28:48,659 And there's a lot that is done. 803 00:28:48,660 --> 00:28:50,849 This is not something that we can take 804 00:28:50,850 --> 00:28:51,850 for granted. 805 00:28:54,060 --> 00:28:56,699 And part of having the assurance 806 00:28:56,700 --> 00:28:58,949 they will continue to drive 807 00:28:58,950 --> 00:29:01,200 to civilization is maintaining. 808 00:29:02,250 --> 00:29:04,769 A few important things on 809 00:29:04,770 --> 00:29:07,229 the Internet as a free 810 00:29:07,230 --> 00:29:09,160 resource available to 811 00:29:10,530 --> 00:29:11,880 the need better 812 00:29:13,380 --> 00:29:15,660 without being dominated by. 813 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,969 The interests of nation states, 814 00:29:19,970 --> 00:29:22,399 but one another will be tolerated 815 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,189 by corporate profit making interests 816 00:29:25,190 --> 00:29:27,979 to the exclusion of communication, 817 00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:28,980 education 818 00:29:30,170 --> 00:29:31,170 and cultural. 819 00:29:32,690 --> 00:29:34,519 Another thing that we need to ensure is 820 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,809 to process the 821 00:29:36,810 --> 00:29:38,959 due process is 822 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,629 what allows us to be that we can go about 823 00:29:41,630 --> 00:29:43,999 what we're doing with freedom 824 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,249 and liberty to fight 825 00:29:46,250 --> 00:29:49,159 against injustice or just to enjoy 826 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,009 the privacy of our lives 827 00:29:52,010 --> 00:29:54,979 without our politics being able to 828 00:29:54,980 --> 00:29:57,139 step in. Because I can see some 829 00:29:57,140 --> 00:29:58,140 reason 830 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:00,440 only to see. 831 00:30:01,310 --> 00:30:02,310 This case 832 00:30:04,210 --> 00:30:06,789 especially needs to 833 00:30:06,790 --> 00:30:07,880 be locked away and tortured 834 00:30:10,630 --> 00:30:11,630 to. 835 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,759 The few things that people would like to 836 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,009 explain to due process, that's when 837 00:30:17,010 --> 00:30:18,010 they were arrested 838 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,069 after their arrest, they will be charged 839 00:30:23,070 --> 00:30:24,749 with the crimes for which they were 840 00:30:24,750 --> 00:30:25,949 suspected. 841 00:30:25,950 --> 00:30:27,269 And if you 842 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,689 take a look, business and 843 00:30:30,690 --> 00:30:32,109 property tax. 844 00:30:32,110 --> 00:30:33,569 In my case, I wasn't charged. 845 00:30:33,570 --> 00:30:35,099 And I'm still 846 00:30:36,150 --> 00:30:38,579 slightly free because 847 00:30:38,580 --> 00:30:40,079 it was my property 848 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,509 that this was a 849 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:46,489 passwords. 850 00:30:46,490 --> 00:30:49,169 And despite 851 00:30:49,170 --> 00:30:51,439 the facts 852 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,209 and since then, 853 00:30:54,210 --> 00:30:55,319 the issue of 854 00:30:56,380 --> 00:30:58,499 this principle 855 00:30:58,500 --> 00:30:59,500 of jurisprudence. 856 00:31:02,270 --> 00:31:04,639 But they to get 857 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,769 into to make a prima 858 00:31:06,770 --> 00:31:08,929 facie case because of 859 00:31:08,930 --> 00:31:10,640 the one sided extradition treaty 860 00:31:12,500 --> 00:31:14,869 between Tony Blair and George Bush, 861 00:31:14,870 --> 00:31:16,699 you may remember some other things that 862 00:31:16,700 --> 00:31:17,700 have gone so well. 863 00:31:18,830 --> 00:31:20,959 And it's very concerning 864 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,889 in the abstract, not just because it's my 865 00:31:22,890 --> 00:31:25,009 life now 866 00:31:25,010 --> 00:31:27,909 given to is going to be running 867 00:31:27,910 --> 00:31:29,869 the administration for the next four 868 00:31:29,870 --> 00:31:31,969 years, that somebody 869 00:31:31,970 --> 00:31:33,469 from this country without a shred of 870 00:31:33,470 --> 00:31:35,089 evidence to see 871 00:31:36,110 --> 00:31:38,299 the evidence will be able to test it 872 00:31:38,300 --> 00:31:40,399 on the basis of the 873 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:41,400 allegations. 874 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,789 And that there is 875 00:31:44,790 --> 00:31:46,680 seems to be so far in the court process 876 00:31:48,020 --> 00:31:49,549 about the other issue, 877 00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:52,879 because I would consider it a fight. 878 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,489 This is the first place 879 00:31:55,490 --> 00:31:56,509 I think 880 00:31:58,220 --> 00:31:59,220 the prosecution's 881 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,719 is in your life and have access 882 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,009 to the information that you need to 883 00:32:04,010 --> 00:32:06,259 prove. And so in terms 884 00:32:06,260 --> 00:32:07,550 of just having 885 00:32:08,750 --> 00:32:10,849 any kind of justice 886 00:32:10,850 --> 00:32:13,409 possession of the 20 people 887 00:32:13,410 --> 00:32:16,339 without a trial because we made an offer 888 00:32:16,340 --> 00:32:18,739 in, this is the alternative, 889 00:32:18,740 --> 00:32:20,809 which is having the charges set so 890 00:32:20,810 --> 00:32:22,909 that they can, in my case, I 891 00:32:22,910 --> 00:32:25,249 guess, which 892 00:32:25,250 --> 00:32:26,479 would be the rest of my life. 893 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,459 So it's important 894 00:32:30,020 --> 00:32:32,299 that we win this case on appeal 895 00:32:32,300 --> 00:32:34,439 as much as possible 896 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,069 so that these systemic issues 897 00:32:37,070 --> 00:32:38,900 can be really looked at, 898 00:32:39,980 --> 00:32:42,039 hopefully through the refusal of 899 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,389 the precedent to be set that 900 00:32:44,390 --> 00:32:46,489 you can't trust the people 901 00:32:46,490 --> 00:32:48,709 that you like without having to at least 902 00:32:48,710 --> 00:32:51,140 make a case that maybe something 903 00:32:52,370 --> 00:32:54,679 to the disproportionality of sentences 904 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,929 under the law 905 00:32:56,930 --> 00:32:58,190 for nonviolent offenses. 906 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,519 And you said that we shouldn't 907 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,349 be too optimistic about legal aid for the 908 00:33:03,350 --> 00:33:06,679 US in the immediate future, but 909 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,839 to continue to ask for it. 910 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,719 So this is for peace 911 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,129 because of the systemic problems 912 00:33:14,130 --> 00:33:16,270 we are getting with this 913 00:33:17,330 --> 00:33:19,009 regime, the mandatory sentencing 914 00:33:19,010 --> 00:33:21,199 guidelines, which allows 915 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,719 the charges to stack up in such a way 916 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,159 that it gives some of the additions to 917 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,829 the people that give it 918 00:33:27,830 --> 00:33:28,830 to 919 00:33:32,090 --> 00:33:33,090 them. If 920 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:37,320 I 921 00:33:38,690 --> 00:33:40,829 could say anything I said, 922 00:33:40,830 --> 00:33:42,919 but I really think people are taking an 923 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:43,920 interest in the case. 924 00:33:45,020 --> 00:33:46,020 I 925 00:33:47,510 --> 00:33:48,510 basically say 926 00:33:49,610 --> 00:33:51,049 simply because I. 927 00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:58,279 Surrendered the sovereignty of my life to 928 00:33:58,280 --> 00:33:59,359 my will. 929 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,049 However, the people they're 930 00:34:03,050 --> 00:34:04,579 trying to say you have 931 00:34:06,700 --> 00:34:08,779 the right to silence, which I 932 00:34:08,780 --> 00:34:11,209 would probably 933 00:34:11,210 --> 00:34:12,319 not raise to that level. 934 00:34:13,699 --> 00:34:15,769 And so my 935 00:34:15,770 --> 00:34:17,689 options for not something that's pretty 936 00:34:21,110 --> 00:34:23,149 awesome, because that would be another 937 00:34:23,150 --> 00:34:25,549 case for the two of them. 938 00:34:25,550 --> 00:34:27,829 But there will be no 939 00:34:27,830 --> 00:34:30,549 extradition afterwards 940 00:34:30,550 --> 00:34:32,539 be to the issues of the 941 00:34:35,090 --> 00:34:36,489 person when they 942 00:34:37,610 --> 00:34:39,888 go through the process rather 943 00:34:39,889 --> 00:34:41,570 than the guilty 944 00:34:44,449 --> 00:34:46,059 with the. 945 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:52,670 It's the people like. 946 00:35:12,430 --> 00:35:14,649 OK, let's open it up to 947 00:35:14,650 --> 00:35:15,650 Q&A. 948 00:35:18,340 --> 00:35:20,469 We have about eight microphones in 949 00:35:20,470 --> 00:35:22,239 the room and we also have a lovely signal 950 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:24,039 angel that will be taking questions from 951 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:25,040 the Internet. 952 00:35:26,620 --> 00:35:28,089 So please, if you have any questions, 953 00:35:28,090 --> 00:35:29,259 Laurie, don't be shy. 954 00:35:29,260 --> 00:35:31,419 Get up to the microphones and speak 955 00:35:31,420 --> 00:35:32,420 loud and clear. 956 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:35,769 Otherwise, you have anything from the 957 00:35:35,770 --> 00:35:37,839 panel that you want to say in 958 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:39,280 response to what Laura was just saying? 959 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,329 Microphone number three, please. 960 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,589 It's more like not a question, 961 00:35:47,590 --> 00:35:49,179 but a comment. 962 00:35:49,180 --> 00:35:51,959 I mean, I, 963 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,339 I, I kind of understand 964 00:35:54,340 --> 00:35:56,499 the louder situation 965 00:35:56,500 --> 00:35:58,749 because I both have Aspergers 966 00:35:58,750 --> 00:36:01,489 and have had an 967 00:36:01,490 --> 00:36:02,689 issue with the law 968 00:36:04,510 --> 00:36:06,949 for. But I am not yet to 969 00:36:06,950 --> 00:36:09,309 hear that the US government. 970 00:36:09,310 --> 00:36:10,310 Lockette. 971 00:36:10,900 --> 00:36:13,279 But maybe it will change 972 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:14,559 if if I 973 00:36:15,970 --> 00:36:18,219 do some things and we should cover 974 00:36:18,220 --> 00:36:20,620 it just like this, so. 975 00:36:26,870 --> 00:36:27,870 Thank you. 976 00:36:29,330 --> 00:36:30,949 We have a question from microphone number 977 00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:33,229 four, please, mostly questions 978 00:36:33,230 --> 00:36:34,369 and not so much comments. 979 00:36:35,900 --> 00:36:36,529 Comment. 980 00:36:36,530 --> 00:36:37,999 One comment, though, it seems that the 981 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:39,229 Internet in the U.K. 982 00:36:39,230 --> 00:36:41,389 is still the way it has always 983 00:36:41,390 --> 00:36:42,390 been. 984 00:36:45,650 --> 00:36:47,929 So, Jake, could you 985 00:36:47,930 --> 00:36:50,869 could you possibly make a few comments 986 00:36:50,870 --> 00:36:52,939 about resemblances and what 987 00:36:52,940 --> 00:36:55,369 can be applied from your case in Laurie's 988 00:36:55,370 --> 00:36:57,319 case? I mean, I think it would be very 989 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:58,789 interesting for everybody to know your 990 00:36:58,790 --> 00:37:00,889 story as to how much time did 991 00:37:00,890 --> 00:37:03,109 you actually do and why 992 00:37:03,110 --> 00:37:05,359 and what from that should Laurie 993 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,579 be actually kept in the U.K. 994 00:37:07,580 --> 00:37:09,619 or what from your story can be applied to 995 00:37:09,620 --> 00:37:10,519 his case? 996 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,529 If you're not got help, he's got to stay 997 00:37:12,530 --> 00:37:13,530 there. 998 00:37:13,850 --> 00:37:15,919 Yeah, sure. So a very brief timeline 999 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,189 of arrest through to 1000 00:37:18,190 --> 00:37:19,879 release. Mustapha and I were both 1001 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:21,350 arrested in 2011. 1002 00:37:22,790 --> 00:37:24,649 We were both banned from the Internet for 1003 00:37:24,650 --> 00:37:26,659 two years as part of police bail for 1004 00:37:26,660 --> 00:37:29,179 interesting times 2013. 1005 00:37:29,180 --> 00:37:31,249 We were also we were on home 1006 00:37:31,250 --> 00:37:33,289 detention with a big electronic tag 1007 00:37:33,290 --> 00:37:34,609 around our ankles. 1008 00:37:34,610 --> 00:37:37,429 Um, 2013, we were sentenced. 1009 00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:39,589 So the Crown Court I received a two 1010 00:37:39,590 --> 00:37:40,879 year prison sentence, though, of the 1011 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:41,809 amount of time spent through an 1012 00:37:41,810 --> 00:37:43,249 electronic tag. 1013 00:37:43,250 --> 00:37:45,169 The way we work in the UK is we do half 1014 00:37:45,170 --> 00:37:46,639 of the time in prison and half of the 1015 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,439 time on probation. 1016 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:49,909 Mathematically speaking, because of two 1017 00:37:49,910 --> 00:37:52,129 years on, I served six 1018 00:37:52,130 --> 00:37:55,069 or six or seven weeks in a prison, 1019 00:37:55,070 --> 00:37:56,659 received a suspended sentence. 1020 00:37:56,660 --> 00:37:58,999 We then both did a year of probation 1021 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,469 and that year I was banned from speaking 1022 00:38:00,470 --> 00:38:02,299 to anyone from Anonymous. 1023 00:38:02,300 --> 00:38:05,209 Currently, we're both still under 1024 00:38:05,210 --> 00:38:06,799 an order called a serious crime 1025 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,569 prevention order, which means we can 1026 00:38:08,570 --> 00:38:11,209 encrypt our files or delete 1027 00:38:11,210 --> 00:38:13,399 Internet history and a bunch of other 1028 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:14,359 little things. 1029 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,639 So when I came to this office, 1030 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,349 when we both came to this conference, we 1031 00:38:18,350 --> 00:38:20,059 had to declare that we were getting a 1032 00:38:20,060 --> 00:38:22,159 flight out and a flight back and that 1033 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,579 will be enforced until 2018. 1034 00:38:25,580 --> 00:38:27,709 That all put together some pretty 1035 00:38:27,710 --> 00:38:29,779 ridiculous as a as a case, but 1036 00:38:29,780 --> 00:38:31,969 it's far saner than anything that would 1037 00:38:31,970 --> 00:38:33,589 occur if we were sent to the states would 1038 00:38:33,590 --> 00:38:34,759 be far simpler. If we were sent to the 1039 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:36,889 states, we'd just be put in a cell for 1040 00:38:36,890 --> 00:38:38,239 a very, very long time. 1041 00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:39,529 And it's complicated. 1042 00:38:39,530 --> 00:38:41,779 In the UK, it's messy, but our parole 1043 00:38:41,780 --> 00:38:43,939 system is reasonable, our legal system 1044 00:38:43,940 --> 00:38:44,899 is reasonable. 1045 00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:47,329 And in terms of similarities 1046 00:38:47,330 --> 00:38:49,489 with alleged crimes, we were alleged 1047 00:38:49,490 --> 00:38:50,959 to have broken into US government 1048 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:51,960 computers as well 1049 00:38:53,300 --> 00:38:55,579 and at us and 1050 00:38:55,580 --> 00:38:57,559 about 20 other cases were dealt with 1051 00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,419 successfully here. And a number of ways. 1052 00:38:59,420 --> 00:39:01,549 There's so much paperwork out 1053 00:39:01,550 --> 00:39:03,409 there now for judges and prosecutors to 1054 00:39:03,410 --> 00:39:05,239 make informed decisions that it clearly 1055 00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:07,309 works better for hackers to be dealt with 1056 00:39:07,310 --> 00:39:09,319 in their own country rather than be sent 1057 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,629 to a jurisdiction that puts 1058 00:39:11,630 --> 00:39:13,099 them away for decades at a time. 1059 00:39:13,100 --> 00:39:15,199 So there are similarities to draw and at 1060 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,599 all levels. And it's ridiculous that 1061 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:18,889 they've chosen to take this, as I say, 1062 00:39:18,890 --> 00:39:20,419 vengeful approach. 1063 00:39:20,420 --> 00:39:22,789 So so the targets 1064 00:39:22,790 --> 00:39:24,919 that we were we hacked were pretty 1065 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,019 much all in the US and yet 1066 00:39:27,020 --> 00:39:29,149 we were still tried in the UK because the 1067 00:39:29,150 --> 00:39:31,189 evidence was presented in the UK court. 1068 00:39:31,190 --> 00:39:33,589 So I see absolutely no reason why 1069 00:39:33,590 --> 00:39:35,809 by law you can't be tried in the UK and 1070 00:39:35,810 --> 00:39:38,209 why the evidence can't be seen in the UK. 1071 00:39:38,210 --> 00:39:41,149 Even most of the evidence our case 1072 00:39:41,150 --> 00:39:43,369 actually came from the US, mostly 1073 00:39:43,370 --> 00:39:44,929 from Hexter. Months ago it was an FBI 1074 00:39:44,930 --> 00:39:46,009 informant. 1075 00:39:46,010 --> 00:39:48,259 The UK, our UK police 1076 00:39:48,260 --> 00:39:50,449 officers actually hopped on 1077 00:39:50,450 --> 00:39:52,489 a plane to the US and bought evidence 1078 00:39:52,490 --> 00:39:53,659 back and a said wrong. 1079 00:39:53,660 --> 00:39:55,459 So I don't see why or any aspect of it 1080 00:39:55,460 --> 00:39:57,139 when all the evidence can be transferred 1081 00:39:57,140 --> 00:39:58,579 to the UK. 1082 00:39:58,580 --> 00:40:00,799 There's a big question in this case about 1083 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:02,359 whether there has been a good faith 1084 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,569 attempt to prosecute Louhi in the UK. 1085 00:40:05,570 --> 00:40:07,489 That's a big question which still has to 1086 00:40:07,490 --> 00:40:09,739 be tackled in UK and hopefully 1087 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:12,319 we'll get a bit closer towards doing that 1088 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,269 before the appeal happens. 1089 00:40:14,270 --> 00:40:16,370 It's probably worth noting that, 1090 00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:20,299 as you've heard, Louris 1091 00:40:20,300 --> 00:40:22,339 maximum potential sentence in the United 1092 00:40:22,340 --> 00:40:23,749 States is ninety nine years. 1093 00:40:23,750 --> 00:40:25,789 The equivalent, if either were prosecuted 1094 00:40:25,790 --> 00:40:27,649 in UK, is a maximum of about two and a 1095 00:40:27,650 --> 00:40:29,419 half years, of which no one I've spoken 1096 00:40:29,420 --> 00:40:30,619 to thinks he would actually serve that 1097 00:40:30,620 --> 00:40:31,579 maximum. 1098 00:40:31,580 --> 00:40:33,380 So the differential is pretty shocking. 1099 00:40:35,270 --> 00:40:37,249 We have one question from the Internet. 1100 00:40:37,250 --> 00:40:38,779 Actually, there are a couple of 1101 00:40:38,780 --> 00:40:39,829 questions. 1102 00:40:39,830 --> 00:40:41,659 The first one is, what are some of the 1103 00:40:41,660 --> 00:40:43,729 most effective things that hackers 1104 00:40:43,730 --> 00:40:45,889 can do to resist the mistreatment 1105 00:40:45,890 --> 00:40:47,389 of hackers activists? 1106 00:40:53,030 --> 00:40:54,169 My question. 1107 00:40:54,170 --> 00:40:56,299 So raising awareness of these 1108 00:40:56,300 --> 00:40:58,699 cases is incredibly important in 1109 00:40:58,700 --> 00:41:00,349 particular cases like Louris, where there 1110 00:41:00,350 --> 00:41:02,599 is a very knotty political 1111 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,729 national political issue at play 1112 00:41:04,730 --> 00:41:06,199 and getting in touch with your elected 1113 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,779 representatives is very useful 1114 00:41:08,780 --> 00:41:10,739 in Louris case, actually. 1115 00:41:10,740 --> 00:41:13,039 Two things we could do with in our case 1116 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:14,839 we could do is more, you know, more 1117 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:16,789 influential people coming forward and 1118 00:41:16,790 --> 00:41:19,189 explaining, you know, exactly why 1119 00:41:19,190 --> 00:41:20,869 extraditing now would be an astonishingly 1120 00:41:20,870 --> 00:41:22,459 bad idea. 1121 00:41:22,460 --> 00:41:23,839 Everybody in this audience probably 1122 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,309 knows, at least knows somebody who knows 1123 00:41:25,310 --> 00:41:26,779 somebody who would be useful to speak out 1124 00:41:26,780 --> 00:41:28,399 about that. So get talking to people. 1125 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,159 You know, the other one is that, 1126 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:32,749 as was mentioned right at the beginning 1127 00:41:32,750 --> 00:41:34,549 and introduction, Larry, is not just a 1128 00:41:34,550 --> 00:41:36,109 British citizen. He also holds Finnish 1129 00:41:36,110 --> 00:41:36,949 citizenship. 1130 00:41:36,950 --> 00:41:38,479 And we could do with a bit of pressure in 1131 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,579 Finland to get the Finnish government 1132 00:41:40,580 --> 00:41:42,889 to say something publicly 1133 00:41:42,890 --> 00:41:44,689 about Larry's case, probably. 1134 00:41:44,690 --> 00:41:46,249 And he would take a little push, in my 1135 00:41:46,250 --> 00:41:47,959 opinion, so that those are some concrete 1136 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:48,989 things can happen. 1137 00:41:48,990 --> 00:41:50,959 One thing I should mention, we also have 1138 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,459 a defense fund for Larry, should, God 1139 00:41:52,460 --> 00:41:53,959 forbid, the United States. 1140 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:55,489 The costs are going to get very serious 1141 00:41:55,490 --> 00:41:56,569 very quickly. 1142 00:41:56,570 --> 00:41:58,759 So if you go to free, Larry, dot 1143 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,919 com slash, donate and 1144 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:02,179 send some money, it would be very 1145 00:42:02,180 --> 00:42:03,180 appreciated. 1146 00:42:04,780 --> 00:42:06,459 We have a question from microphone number 1147 00:42:06,460 --> 00:42:07,460 one. 1148 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,559 I know you said no more comments, but I 1149 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:12,670 have I have a comment. 1150 00:42:15,610 --> 00:42:16,869 I'm Noah Schwartz. 1151 00:42:16,870 --> 00:42:19,269 I'm Aaron Swartz, his brother, 1152 00:42:19,270 --> 00:42:21,309 who has mentioned a lot during this talk. 1153 00:42:22,420 --> 00:42:23,799 And one of the things that happened 1154 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,319 during Aaron's prosecution was 1155 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,689 that the prosecutor, Steve Hamen, 1156 00:42:28,690 --> 00:42:30,939 tried very hard to prevent 1157 00:42:30,940 --> 00:42:32,709 anyone from raising awareness about 1158 00:42:32,710 --> 00:42:34,809 Aaron's case or in getting 1159 00:42:34,810 --> 00:42:36,879 any sort of support from 1160 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:38,979 people like us, the hacker community, 1161 00:42:38,980 --> 00:42:41,499 or any other people that knew him. 1162 00:42:41,500 --> 00:42:42,560 And then after 1163 00:42:43,780 --> 00:42:45,519 he died, a lot of people said, you know, 1164 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,649 like, why didn't we do anything? 1165 00:42:47,650 --> 00:42:49,779 Why didn't people stand up for Aaron when 1166 00:42:49,780 --> 00:42:50,800 we had the chance? 1167 00:42:52,090 --> 00:42:54,819 So here you go. You have the chance now 1168 00:42:54,820 --> 00:42:56,050 to support Laurie. 1169 00:42:57,580 --> 00:42:58,580 Don't waste it. 1170 00:43:12,540 --> 00:43:13,829 Thank you know for everything you've 1171 00:43:13,830 --> 00:43:14,830 done. 1172 00:43:15,570 --> 00:43:17,189 We'll take one more question, Fantana. 1173 00:43:24,050 --> 00:43:25,839 We've got Laurie back on screen now, 1174 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:27,809 apparently, apparently she's distracting 1175 00:43:27,810 --> 00:43:29,059 him to be put on the screen, is what they 1176 00:43:29,060 --> 00:43:31,189 said on 1177 00:43:31,190 --> 00:43:33,379 the screen. This man, this is his talk. 1178 00:43:33,380 --> 00:43:34,579 So he should be on the screen. I think he 1179 00:43:34,580 --> 00:43:35,580 should be on screen. 1180 00:43:40,250 --> 00:43:41,839 We'll take one question from the Internet 1181 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,910 if the signal right angel is ready 1182 00:43:45,170 --> 00:43:46,639 and let's get up to the microphones if 1183 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:48,499 you have questions. You're in the room 1184 00:43:48,500 --> 00:43:49,399 now. 1185 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,919 Is there anything we can do within the US 1186 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:53,539 legal system to stop this? 1187 00:43:53,540 --> 00:43:55,639 Or is it essentially up to public 1188 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,439 pressure or legislatively either the 1189 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,079 executive to drop the case? 1190 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:01,579 Yeah, I think there's been a lot of 1191 00:44:01,580 --> 00:44:03,349 campaigning in the U.K., but it really 1192 00:44:03,350 --> 00:44:04,879 would be really great to see some 1193 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,139 campaigning in the US. 1194 00:44:08,180 --> 00:44:10,369 I think it would be quite worthwhile to 1195 00:44:10,370 --> 00:44:12,799 contact your congressmen and senators 1196 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,419 about this case because we've we've 1197 00:44:15,420 --> 00:44:17,659 we have our MPs. 1198 00:44:17,660 --> 00:44:20,809 We have about a fifth of our government 1199 00:44:20,810 --> 00:44:22,819 sending a letter to Barack Obama, but 1200 00:44:22,820 --> 00:44:24,469 we'd have nothing on the other side. 1201 00:44:24,470 --> 00:44:26,269 So I think it would be very powerful for 1202 00:44:26,270 --> 00:44:28,399 for people in the US or 1203 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,499 potentially in the US to also try 1204 00:44:30,500 --> 00:44:32,389 and do something, because otherwise it 1205 00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:34,459 would just seem like it's 1206 00:44:34,460 --> 00:44:37,129 the US is coming to you demands. 1207 00:44:37,130 --> 00:44:39,169 Yeah, I would second that we need a lot 1208 00:44:39,170 --> 00:44:40,999 more noise about this in the United 1209 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:41,989 States, in my opinion. 1210 00:44:41,990 --> 00:44:44,209 I think for elsewhere in EU, of course, 1211 00:44:44,210 --> 00:44:46,309 Finland is a particular case here, but I 1212 00:44:46,310 --> 00:44:47,869 think an awareness that, 1213 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:50,989 you know, it's not just hackers in the 1214 00:44:50,990 --> 00:44:53,059 U.K. who are indicted in the US 1215 00:44:53,060 --> 00:44:55,189 and managed managed 1216 00:44:55,190 --> 00:44:55,819 to stay here. 1217 00:44:55,820 --> 00:44:57,499 This is a situation which happens all 1218 00:44:57,500 --> 00:44:58,639 across the European Union. 1219 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,889 And one of the dangers 1220 00:45:00,890 --> 00:45:03,079 of Larry's case is that should he be 1221 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,479 extradited, God forbid, then 1222 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:06,829 it's going to open the floodgates 1223 00:45:06,830 --> 00:45:07,999 elsewhere in the EU as well. 1224 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:09,199 So there really needs to be a proper 1225 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,959 rearguard action all over the place 1226 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,089 to stop the US asserting 1227 00:45:14,090 --> 00:45:15,709 the extraterritorial jurisdiction over 1228 00:45:15,710 --> 00:45:16,710 these kinds of issues. 1229 00:45:19,570 --> 00:45:21,090 We have more questions from the Internet. 1230 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:24,819 No more questions, do any of you have any 1231 00:45:24,820 --> 00:45:26,649 more questions in the room now is your 1232 00:45:26,650 --> 00:45:27,819 time to shine. Come up to the 1233 00:45:27,820 --> 00:45:28,820 microphones. 1234 00:45:30,550 --> 00:45:32,349 If not, do we have any final comments 1235 00:45:32,350 --> 00:45:33,610 from the three of you on the panel? 1236 00:45:36,450 --> 00:45:38,759 Microphone number one, yeah, that just 1237 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,189 to play devil's 1238 00:45:41,190 --> 00:45:43,019 advocate, kind of. 1239 00:45:44,550 --> 00:45:45,959 So you're saying it's mainly about 1240 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,149 vengeance, the extradition, 1241 00:45:49,150 --> 00:45:50,819 but what about the argument that. 1242 00:45:50,820 --> 00:45:52,979 Well, so you said there were 20 1243 00:45:52,980 --> 00:45:55,469 cases that were handled without 1244 00:45:55,470 --> 00:45:56,470 extradition, 1245 00:45:57,570 --> 00:45:59,399 and I'm guessing the sentences were 1246 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:00,689 pretty lenient. 1247 00:46:01,770 --> 00:46:04,259 So maybe from the US perspective, 1248 00:46:04,260 --> 00:46:05,939 OK, these guys are hacking into our 1249 00:46:05,940 --> 00:46:07,859 computers from Europe. 1250 00:46:07,860 --> 00:46:10,559 Their governments are giving them pretty 1251 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,629 lenient sentences because from 1252 00:46:12,630 --> 00:46:14,789 the government's point of view, I don't 1253 00:46:14,790 --> 00:46:17,159 want the political heat of putting 1254 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,259 some geeky guy in 1255 00:46:19,260 --> 00:46:22,019 prison who's, you know, not some 1256 00:46:22,020 --> 00:46:23,020 thug that. 1257 00:46:26,380 --> 00:46:27,380 So 1258 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,909 so when you say leniency 1259 00:46:31,910 --> 00:46:34,159 in comparison to the sorry, 1260 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:36,559 U.S. government, so when you say lenient, 1261 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,839 you do realize that the US government 1262 00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,929 in the US has a harsher sentencing 1263 00:46:41,930 --> 00:46:42,930 laws possible? 1264 00:46:43,700 --> 00:46:44,700 That's what I'm saying. 1265 00:46:45,770 --> 00:46:48,139 You're saying maybe the US is concerned 1266 00:46:48,140 --> 00:46:49,140 that if this 1267 00:46:50,330 --> 00:46:52,399 becomes the norm, that these 1268 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,889 crimes there is no extradition 1269 00:46:54,890 --> 00:46:57,379 and the the local governments 1270 00:46:57,380 --> 00:46:59,449 will also always their incentive will be 1271 00:46:59,450 --> 00:47:02,059 to give a very lenient sentence? 1272 00:47:02,060 --> 00:47:04,189 I think they probably do think 1273 00:47:04,190 --> 00:47:05,389 something along those lines. 1274 00:47:05,390 --> 00:47:07,519 But on the basis that they think that the 1275 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:08,749 sentences are lenient, I mean, they're 1276 00:47:08,750 --> 00:47:09,750 not that lenient, 1277 00:47:11,030 --> 00:47:13,249 Mr.. Often under restrictions until 1278 00:47:13,250 --> 00:47:14,179 2018. 1279 00:47:14,180 --> 00:47:16,369 Our case began in 2011, as if you face 1280 00:47:16,370 --> 00:47:18,499 anything up, put anything up against the 1281 00:47:18,500 --> 00:47:20,749 kind of punishments and that 1282 00:47:20,750 --> 00:47:22,609 the US throughout Chelsea, 1283 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,359 etc., or 1284 00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:28,199 it's the US security. 1285 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:29,200 And like what? 1286 00:47:30,770 --> 00:47:32,989 I'm sorry, what kind of thing 1287 00:47:32,990 --> 00:47:33,619 did you do? 1288 00:47:33,620 --> 00:47:36,139 Did you do something that hurts 1289 00:47:36,140 --> 00:47:37,379 us? 1290 00:47:37,380 --> 00:47:38,709 We were alleged to have hurt your society 1291 00:47:38,710 --> 00:47:40,819 and I'm indicted in the United 1292 00:47:40,820 --> 00:47:41,959 States. In New York, though, no 1293 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:42,960 extradition was not. 1294 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:46,609 Our case is pretty severe like lories, 1295 00:47:46,610 --> 00:47:47,610 don't worry. 1296 00:47:51,260 --> 00:47:53,529 OK, we have one more question 1297 00:47:53,530 --> 00:47:54,639 from the Internet. 1298 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:56,919 Someone on the on the scene tells me 1299 00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,319 Laurie wants to see you again something. 1300 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,569 Is it possible to give 1301 00:48:01,570 --> 00:48:03,519 to him whatever it is? 1302 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:04,520 It's kind of a great. 1303 00:48:11,370 --> 00:48:13,799 I think it's possible if the connectivity 1304 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,209 wants to play along. 1305 00:48:15,210 --> 00:48:16,210 Laurie? 1306 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,149 So you touched on I 1307 00:48:20,150 --> 00:48:22,489 announced there's a five second delay 1308 00:48:26,030 --> 00:48:27,030 or something. 1309 00:48:27,850 --> 00:48:28,850 I guess 1310 00:48:32,790 --> 00:48:34,760 I'll tell you what hurts US security. 1311 00:48:38,070 --> 00:48:39,070 The. 1312 00:48:58,070 --> 00:49:01,099 It's coming, yes and 1313 00:49:01,100 --> 00:49:02,100 yes. 1314 00:49:07,020 --> 00:49:08,550 We can hear you please do speak. 1315 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,979 Yeah, I just wanted to say that 1316 00:49:18,980 --> 00:49:21,349 the US, he would be out 1317 00:49:21,350 --> 00:49:23,419 by improving the 1318 00:49:23,420 --> 00:49:25,310 security and 1319 00:49:27,110 --> 00:49:29,599 which means takes the engineering 1320 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,669 problem of the security 1321 00:49:31,670 --> 00:49:33,919 services, but infrastructure. 1322 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,379 That's especially covered by 1323 00:49:38,380 --> 00:49:40,509 the people that 1324 00:49:40,510 --> 00:49:42,130 they saw, the lack of security, but 1325 00:49:43,150 --> 00:49:45,219 obviously the need to enforce 1326 00:49:45,220 --> 00:49:46,539 the law and 1327 00:49:48,820 --> 00:49:51,159 prioritizing class 1328 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:52,160 rather than 1329 00:49:53,470 --> 00:49:55,809 taking advantage of information to 1330 00:49:55,810 --> 00:49:58,119 fix the actual underlying problems 1331 00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,699 is probably not the best strategy 1332 00:50:00,700 --> 00:50:01,700 for. 1333 00:50:15,900 --> 00:50:18,029 I think I'll ask Naomi from the Courage 1334 00:50:18,030 --> 00:50:20,039 Foundation to try and remind us what we 1335 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,489 could all be doing to help 1336 00:50:22,490 --> 00:50:24,689 Lori and also future cases 1337 00:50:24,690 --> 00:50:25,690 if we get them. 1338 00:50:27,330 --> 00:50:27,629 Sure. 1339 00:50:27,630 --> 00:50:29,999 So what what can you do to help, Larry, 1340 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,369 if you're in the UK and your MP 1341 00:50:32,370 --> 00:50:34,559 did not sign the letter to Obama saying 1342 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,179 that his extradition would be a bad thing 1343 00:50:36,180 --> 00:50:37,949 and he should be prosecuted in the UK, 1344 00:50:37,950 --> 00:50:40,109 then, you know, if there's evidence, then 1345 00:50:40,110 --> 00:50:42,209 you should 1346 00:50:42,210 --> 00:50:43,349 certainly. Right. You should certainly 1347 00:50:43,350 --> 00:50:44,399 write to them and ask them why they 1348 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:45,779 haven't signed. And if they have signed, 1349 00:50:45,780 --> 00:50:46,919 you should you should write to them and 1350 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,019 say thank you for signing and please 1351 00:50:49,020 --> 00:50:50,579 keep an eye on this as it goes forward 1352 00:50:53,580 --> 00:50:56,309 further and that it's really important to 1353 00:50:56,310 --> 00:50:57,959 just make sure that people are aware of 1354 00:50:57,960 --> 00:50:59,579 this case. I think the Internet is pretty 1355 00:50:59,580 --> 00:51:01,499 much aware of this of this case. 1356 00:51:01,500 --> 00:51:03,569 But there's a whole world beyond the 1357 00:51:03,570 --> 00:51:05,489 Internet, some of some of whom you know 1358 00:51:05,490 --> 00:51:06,629 and some of whom you can speak to in 1359 00:51:06,630 --> 00:51:07,439 person. 1360 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,929 And that's that's very valuable 1361 00:51:11,100 --> 00:51:12,089 beyond the UK. 1362 00:51:12,090 --> 00:51:13,949 As I've said, we really need to raise the 1363 00:51:13,950 --> 00:51:15,749 pressure on this in the United States, 1364 00:51:15,750 --> 00:51:17,039 having some influential people in the 1365 00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:18,569 United States coming forward and saying 1366 00:51:18,570 --> 00:51:19,769 that this is a bad thing, it should not 1367 00:51:19,770 --> 00:51:21,149 be allowed to happen, would be very would 1368 00:51:21,150 --> 00:51:22,289 be very useful. 1369 00:51:22,290 --> 00:51:24,479 If you're in Finland, then put it, then 1370 00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:25,409 putting pressure on Finnish 1371 00:51:25,410 --> 00:51:27,389 representatives would also be super 1372 00:51:27,390 --> 00:51:28,390 useful. 1373 00:51:29,100 --> 00:51:31,229 And beyond that, 1374 00:51:31,230 --> 00:51:33,249 there's there's a defense funds that, you 1375 00:51:33,250 --> 00:51:34,709 know, with the defense fund, we've been 1376 00:51:34,710 --> 00:51:36,839 able to make sure that Larry 1377 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:38,189 had the maximum number of expert 1378 00:51:38,190 --> 00:51:39,869 witnesses possible at his extradition 1379 00:51:39,870 --> 00:51:42,209 hearing. And as we go further, 1380 00:51:42,210 --> 00:51:43,709 the cost implications could be quite 1381 00:51:43,710 --> 00:51:45,089 serious. So that makes a massive 1382 00:51:45,090 --> 00:51:46,090 difference. 1383 00:51:47,290 --> 00:51:49,469 Just keep an eye on 1384 00:51:49,470 --> 00:51:50,789 what is going on. 1385 00:51:50,790 --> 00:51:52,289 You know, follow the Courage Foundation, 1386 00:51:52,290 --> 00:51:53,639 follow follow, Larry Twitter. 1387 00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:54,640 And, 1388 00:51:55,770 --> 00:51:58,379 yeah, I imagine that there will be 1389 00:51:58,380 --> 00:52:00,449 further concrete things to do as we 1390 00:52:00,450 --> 00:52:01,710 move on into the next year. 1391 00:52:03,330 --> 00:52:04,469 And we have a couple of more final 1392 00:52:04,470 --> 00:52:06,689 questions of comments. 1393 00:52:06,690 --> 00:52:08,279 Well, one last thing, if you want to talk 1394 00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,559 to Laurie and we're going to be hosting 1395 00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:12,659 a one hour Q&A session 1396 00:52:12,660 --> 00:52:14,400 in the Tea House and the fourth floor 1397 00:52:15,540 --> 00:52:16,620 livestream will continue. 1398 00:52:18,030 --> 00:52:20,119 Yes. And she wanted 1399 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,019 to thank everyone here and on the 1400 00:52:22,020 --> 00:52:24,569 Internet for supporting 1401 00:52:24,570 --> 00:52:26,639 Larry and many cases in our 1402 00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:28,829 case back in 2011, which 1403 00:52:28,830 --> 00:52:30,059 means we can be here today and talk about 1404 00:52:30,060 --> 00:52:30,989 Larry's case and we should move that 1405 00:52:30,990 --> 00:52:32,939 forward and we should harness that power 1406 00:52:32,940 --> 00:52:34,409 and take the lessons we've learned so 1407 00:52:34,410 --> 00:52:36,469 that the best outcome can be hard for 1408 00:52:36,470 --> 00:52:37,470 for Larry. 1409 00:52:47,980 --> 00:52:49,479 Well, thank you very much for being here 1410 00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,149 and thank you for a great panel, and 1411 00:52:52,150 --> 00:52:53,679 I think we should have one more round of 1412 00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:55,419 applause also for the people that have 1413 00:52:55,420 --> 00:52:57,159 been fighting very hard for you to to be 1414 00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:58,160 able to be here.