0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:30,000 This subtitle is not finished yet. If you are able to, please support us and watch the talk in amara for the last changes: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/826 Thanks! 1 00:00:07,349 --> 00:00:32,931 Carmen: Hi. We're Mediengruppe Bitnik, this is Doma, my name is Carmen. We're 2 00:00:32,931 --> 00:00:40,920 really happy to be here; thanks for having us. And we'd like to show you a series of 3 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:46,670 works. We don't quite know how many; we've been kind of changing the slides, so we'll 4 00:00:46,670 --> 00:00:55,740 have to see what fits. I think... just 2 words about Mediengruppe Bitnik: We're 5 00:00:55,740 --> 00:01:03,190 from Zurich originally. We're based in Berlin now... have been based for 1 and a 6 00:01:03,190 --> 00:01:09,509 half years and we work on the digital, but usually our works also affect physical 7 00:01:09,509 --> 00:01:15,350 spaces, as you'll see in a minute. And we'd like to talk about recent works 8 00:01:15,350 --> 00:01:28,320 around bots remote code glitch. So, the first work is called "random darknet 9 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:35,700 shopper". We produced this work in 2014 together with Kunst Halle Sankt Gallen. 10 00:01:35,700 --> 00:01:42,149 This was after the Snowden revelations in 2013, where we kind of felt that, as 11 00:01:42,149 --> 00:01:50,280 artists, we needed to re-assess our cultural "heimat", the internet. As a kind 12 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:56,359 of it was this mass surveillance thing and we kind of felt we couldn't work there 13 00:01:56,359 --> 00:02:03,890 anymore or that many of our works were too naive and so together with Kunst Halle 14 00:02:03,890 --> 00:02:09,750 Sankt Gallen, which is an art space in Switzerland, we put together a show around 15 00:02:09,750 --> 00:02:17,390 darknet, because we felt that by looking at internet subculture, we could kind of 16 00:02:17,390 --> 00:02:30,380 question ideas around anonymity, intimacy, identity, trust... And in this show we had 17 00:02:30,380 --> 00:02:37,240 12 works by various artists around these topics and our work was "random darknet 18 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:38,640 shopper". Doma: So, basically the random darknet 19 00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:49,940 shopper is a piece of software... is a small bot, which we started in autumn 20 00:02:49,940 --> 00:02:58,840 2014. We started with the interest in the question of trust: "How do you gain trust 21 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:05,070 in encrypted networks, where you don't know to whom you're speaking to?", "How 22 00:03:05,070 --> 00:03:10,480 does those trust mechanism work when everything is kind of obfuscated and 23 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:17,320 encrypted?" And we wanted to challenge this question, basically, on the darknet 24 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:25,080 markets, which were kind of a big topic, a controversial topic, after the Silk Road 25 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:34,400 raid. And we thought that it might be good to evaluate these questions with a bot, 26 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:39,150 questioning also "How does trust-building work when you have goods, which are 27 00:03:39,150 --> 00:03:45,590 shipped from all over the world to the buyers?" and so we wrote this part which 28 00:03:45,590 --> 00:03:54,230 was called the "random darknet shopper", which had $100 weekly budget, based in 29 00:03:54,230 --> 00:04:00,390 bitcoins, and the idea was that the bot would log in to the deep webs and go to 30 00:04:00,390 --> 00:04:07,150 the biggest dark net market at that time, it was called agora I think, and randomly 31 00:04:07,150 --> 00:04:14,250 select an item and then buy it and directly send it to the exhibition space, 32 00:04:14,250 --> 00:04:20,899 without our interference. So the idea was that in the exhibition, we had 12 of those 33 00:04:20,899 --> 00:04:27,940 vitrines -- they were empty -- basically waited to be filled over 12 weeks of the 34 00:04:27,940 --> 00:04:34,820 duration of the exhibition. Carmen: So we basically connected the very 35 00:04:34,820 --> 00:04:42,380 dark markets of the darknet with the very visible space of the art gallery. 36 00:04:42,380 --> 00:04:49,880 Doma: Technically it was pretty simple: It was basically a small python script which 37 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:56,280 remote-controlled a Firefox and basically logged in to the darknet markets through 38 00:04:56,280 --> 00:05:04,570 Tor and then just clicked around to choose a random category, get all the items below 39 00:05:04,570 --> 00:05:12,190 $100, randomly choose one, hit the buy button, send an encrypted message to the 40 00:05:12,190 --> 00:05:18,290 seller to send it directly to the exhibition space, and pay the fee or the 41 00:05:18,290 --> 00:05:27,690 things in bitcoins. Carmen: So, over time we wanted to have a 42 00:05:27,690 --> 00:05:32,530 whole landscape of goods from the darknets. There was also a lot of talk in 43 00:05:32,530 --> 00:05:37,120 the media at the time -- well, there still is -- about the darknets and what you can 44 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:41,830 buy there and we didn't believe what they were telling us; we really wanted to see 45 00:05:41,830 --> 00:05:52,060 what we would randomly get from the darknet. And the first item was called 46 00:05:52,060 --> 00:06:02,520 "fire brigade masterkey set", which the seller said was a set of keys usually 47 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:07,889 owned by the fire brigade in the UK to open storage... 48 00:06:07,889 --> 00:06:13,770 Doma: ...public gates in public spaces, stuff they need access to, so... 49 00:06:13,770 --> 00:06:16,450 Carmen: We have no idea whether it's true or not. 50 00:06:16,450 --> 00:06:21,139 Doma: But we still really like that object, because it has that potential of 51 00:06:21,139 --> 00:06:23,910 opening doors in the UK. *laughter* 52 00:06:23,910 --> 00:06:33,240 Carmen: The second item was cigarettes from the Ukraine. So basically, in very 53 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:41,620 good darknet fashion, circumventing the taxation on tobacco in the European Union. 54 00:06:41,620 --> 00:06:46,810 Doma:I think, it was about $35 at that time. 55 00:06:46,810 --> 00:06:50,570 Carmen: Yeah. Doma: Third week, we had this Louis 56 00:06:50,570 --> 00:06:56,810 Vuitton Trevi handbag for $95. And actually, if we speak about trust, this 57 00:06:56,810 --> 00:07:02,900 was the only item which wasn't delivered, but the seller was kind enough to send the 58 00:07:02,900 --> 00:07:09,620 bitcoins back, because he knew he couldn't deliver. So, also here, it kind of worked. 59 00:07:09,620 --> 00:07:19,770 Carmen: Then, we received the Lord of the Rings collection by JRR Tolkien in PDF 60 00:07:19,770 --> 00:07:28,790 format, which, for $1, which we printed . Doma: It's several thousand pages. Then, 61 00:07:28,790 --> 00:07:35,050 the first or ... second super-digital item: It was called Visa. 62 00:07:35,050 --> 00:07:48,400 Carmen: Visa Platinum top card, sent from Torland for $35. Apparently this was a 63 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:58,610 Visa prepaid. We received a visa, so the visa number, the expiry date, the name and 64 00:07:58,610 --> 00:08:03,830 the little number you have on the back. Doma: And we didn't dare to use it. 65 00:08:03,830 --> 00:08:14,300 Carmen: Then, sixth week the random darknet shopper selected 10 yellow ecstasy 66 00:08:14,300 --> 00:08:18,620 pills with a Twitter logo on them... *giggling in the audience* 67 00:08:18,620 --> 00:08:25,840 Carmen: ... sent from Germany for $48 to Switzerland; they actually arrived. We 68 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:33,990 took them as a title for the talk also, because we really liked the description. 69 00:08:33,990 --> 00:08:39,799 We displayed them like the rest. Doma: They came in this stealth packaging, 70 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:45,290 pretending to be a DVD in this alufoil and then vacuumed again. 71 00:08:45,290 --> 00:08:54,619 Carmen: Yes and around about this time, also the press started picking up on the 72 00:08:54,619 --> 00:09:00,720 work, because they kind of felt that this random darknet shopper was questioning or 73 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:09,829 posing questions around who's responsible if a bot commits something illegal. So, 74 00:09:09,829 --> 00:09:16,220 "What happens when a software box goes on the darknet shopping spree?", the Guardian 75 00:09:16,220 --> 00:09:25,769 asked. Who is responsible when a bot randomly shops for ecstasy in the darknet? 76 00:09:25,769 --> 00:09:32,040 Is it the person who programmed it, is it the person who executes it, can a robot or 77 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,910 a piece of software be jailed if it commits a crime? 78 00:09:34,910 --> 00:09:37,430 *giggling in the audience* Doma: And also what happens if the code is 79 00:09:37,430 --> 00:09:42,369 open source and written by many people, like if you have an algorithm which goes 80 00:09:42,369 --> 00:09:47,399 wild? Carmen: But the random darknet shopper 81 00:09:47,399 --> 00:09:56,550 just continued shopping and it bought some Nike Air Yeezy 2 limited edition trainers 82 00:09:56,550 --> 00:10:01,750 for $75. Doma: If you convert the bitcoins into 83 00:10:01,750 --> 00:10:04,040 nowadays' value, it would be around $3000. *laughter* 84 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:13,069 Doma: It costed $75 at the time. Carmen: Then, we received a cap with a 85 00:10:13,069 --> 00:10:24,230 built-in camera that little... that's where the camera is, from the US for $99. 86 00:10:24,230 --> 00:10:29,430 Doma: Then a thing I really liked, it's called the decoy first class letter. So, 87 00:10:29,430 --> 00:10:35,399 it's basically a plain letter you receive, like a service and it came from Australia, 88 00:10:35,399 --> 00:10:41,829 addressed to our exhibition space in Switzerland. It's basically an empty 89 00:10:41,829 --> 00:10:51,290 letter, just to basically traceroute your postal system, to check if the system is 90 00:10:51,290 --> 00:10:55,440 ok, if you can receive mails... *giggling in the audience* 91 00:10:55,440 --> 00:11:00,959 Doma: ...if it's... maybe somebody opens it. So, the idea by buying stuff in the 92 00:11:00,959 --> 00:11:09,740 deep webs is basically also to anonymize somehow your postal box and to test that 93 00:11:09,740 --> 00:11:14,110 you can basically send yourself a letter and see if something happens. It's also 94 00:11:14,110 --> 00:11:19,140 good tactics, basically, if you want to introduce a new address somewhere, start 95 00:11:19,140 --> 00:11:28,899 sending letters there and the post office, the post person, the delivery person, will 96 00:11:28,899 --> 00:11:36,889 get used to it and basically... Carmen: Yeah. The next item was a Sprite 97 00:11:36,889 --> 00:11:45,439 stash can. You probably know this, this is an empty soda can, constructed to weigh 98 00:11:45,439 --> 00:11:51,119 the same as a full one and you can screw the top on, so you can place whatever you 99 00:11:51,119 --> 00:11:57,769 want inside and it's hidden away Doma: Then, the next one: These Diesel man 100 00:11:57,769 --> 00:12:07,869 jeans replica from Hong Kong for $79. Carmen: And the last item we received was 101 00:12:07,869 --> 00:12:19,519 a high quality scan of a Hungarian passport for online verification. So, here 102 00:12:19,519 --> 00:12:28,120 you see, this is basically how we displayed the items and this all went 103 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:35,139 really well, until we took down the exhibition in January 2015 and the day 104 00:12:35,139 --> 00:12:42,929 after the exhibition closed, the public prosecutor of St. Gallen in Switzerland 105 00:12:42,929 --> 00:12:51,259 basically seized the whole work and we were a bit confused. 106 00:12:51,259 --> 00:12:58,720 *laughter* *applause* 107 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:11,029 Carmen: So, we were a bit confused in the first moment, because of the timing. So, 108 00:13:11,029 --> 00:13:19,239 after the exhibition closed, they seized the whole work, but it turned out, that 109 00:13:19,239 --> 00:13:24,380 for them it was mostly about the drugs the random darknet shopper had bought. We were 110 00:13:24,380 --> 00:13:33,420 kind of worried about the passport and the visa card as well, which they felt was 111 00:13:33,420 --> 00:13:35,379 totally okay. *laughter* 112 00:13:35,379 --> 00:13:41,089 Doma: And in the first moment, the question also by the public prosecutor was 113 00:13:41,089 --> 00:13:46,390 raised, it was about responsibility: Who is responsible in this specific moment? Is 114 00:13:46,390 --> 00:13:53,459 it the artists who wrote the code? Is it the museum who basically hosts the show? 115 00:13:53,459 --> 00:13:57,899 Is it the curator? Is it the people who work there? Because me and Carmen, we have 116 00:13:57,899 --> 00:14:02,889 never touched those drugs; we have not, basically... it was all done somehow 117 00:14:02,889 --> 00:14:11,920 automatically. Or is it the bot himself who is somehow its own legal entity and 118 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:18,800 could be punished? So, in order to somehow also protect the staff of the museum and 119 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:25,889 to also to get our items back, we thought "The stuff is ours; we want the things 120 00:14:25,889 --> 00:14:31,319 back.", we raised our hands and said "No; I think, if you want to charge somebody, 121 00:14:31,319 --> 00:14:38,189 you should charge us." Carmen: And we were summoned for an 122 00:14:38,189 --> 00:14:42,509 interrogation, which was really interesting. There we learned that the 123 00:14:42,509 --> 00:14:49,100 drugs actually contained MDMA, so the police had tested them and confirmed that 124 00:14:49,100 --> 00:14:52,709 they did. Doma: I mean, we knew through the ratings 125 00:14:52,709 --> 00:14:56,629 on the drugs on the darknet markets, that this stuff was good. 126 00:14:56,629 --> 00:15:00,329 *laughter* Carmen: But then we kind of had to 127 00:15:00,329 --> 00:15:09,019 discuss. We tried to explain what we were... that we were trying to raise these 128 00:15:09,019 --> 00:15:16,339 questions in public through publicly accessible art piece, because we felt it 129 00:15:16,339 --> 00:15:22,299 very important that we talk about these things. Nevertheless, the public 130 00:15:22,299 --> 00:15:28,250 prosecutor decided to destroy the drugs, which was very unfortunate. We, of cause, 131 00:15:28,250 --> 00:15:31,369 claimed they were an art piece. Doma: So, you're destroying an art piece 132 00:15:31,369 --> 00:15:36,889 here and our lawyer was also referencing all other artworks which involved drug 133 00:15:36,889 --> 00:15:42,910 from the whole history. Carmen: Yeah, but we did receive the whole 134 00:15:42,910 --> 00:15:48,339 work back in the end, except for the drugs, and all charges were dropped 135 00:15:48,339 --> 00:15:58,689 against us and the public prosecutor wrote a very nice letter, saying that we 136 00:15:58,689 --> 00:16:04,839 actually were allowed to break certain laws to raise certain questions within 137 00:16:04,839 --> 00:16:10,449 society. Without specifically naming freedom of art. 138 00:16:10,449 --> 00:16:17,319 Doma: So, our understanding of why they seized the whole thing, is that they were 139 00:16:17,319 --> 00:16:22,790 afraid what the next artist would do. So, the first one buys it, the second one 140 00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:28,439 takes it as a performative act and the third one gives it to the audience and 141 00:16:28,439 --> 00:16:41,850 it's kind of clear that they need to draw a line. So, the question about 142 00:16:41,850 --> 00:16:51,959 responsibility was not solved. Carmen: No, we still have it. We then 143 00:16:51,959 --> 00:17:05,980 continued with this question of bots and the mechanical gaze... Oh, okay. You're 144 00:17:05,980 --> 00:17:17,119 jumping, sorry, wrong introduction... The same year, we were asked to do a public 145 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:23,099 art piece, which is always the case in Switzerland when public buildings are 146 00:17:23,099 --> 00:17:32,000 built, part of the money has to go into an art piece and usually that art piece is 147 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,820 sculptural: It can be a sculpture in the lobby o... 148 00:17:35,820 --> 00:17:41,450 Doma: ... a sculpture in public space. It should... there're different kind of 149 00:17:41,450 --> 00:17:48,450 things you need to address; the public art piece should work for 30 years, should be 150 00:17:48,450 --> 00:17:51,809 sustainable, so it's mostly made out of stone. 151 00:17:51,809 --> 00:17:59,510 Carmen: So, for us as digital artists, this was a very interesting question, also 152 00:17:59,510 --> 00:18:06,120 because the building is the house for Electronic Arts in Basel, also 153 00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:13,539 Switzerland. So, for us the question was "How can we talk about digital topics, but 154 00:18:13,539 --> 00:18:20,049 not using digital media?" Doma: And we asked ourself "Is there a way 155 00:18:20,049 --> 00:18:25,480 of... I mean we thought a lot about architecture and software and how 156 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:35,360 basically the software you use is also infecting the architecture which is built 157 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:41,760 and since this is all software, what we have never seen is a software error. So, 158 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:51,070 we ask ourself "Is it possible to build or is it funny to build a software error into 159 00:18:51,070 --> 00:18:56,139 stone?" and... Carmen: We kind of had to try that. 160 00:18:56,139 --> 00:19:03,250 Doma: We had to try that, so we took a picture of the place, of this house, and 161 00:19:03,250 --> 00:19:13,610 basically glitched it through a small script and told them to rebuild it and 162 00:19:13,610 --> 00:19:16,860 this is how it looks now. Carmen: This is what the building looks 163 00:19:16,860 --> 00:19:28,230 like today. So, they... You can see it. They... 164 00:19:28,230 --> 00:19:39,210 *applause* Carmen: And when you stand there it kind 165 00:19:39,210 --> 00:19:45,350 of gives you a surreal feeling: There's a square in front of this facade and you 166 00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:52,320 you're not sure, whether your eyes are wrong or the building is wrong, and then, 167 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,070 when you come closer, you then, of course, see. 168 00:19:55,070 --> 00:20:02,160 Doma: And also here, the glitch reveals stuff, like... People came to us and asked 169 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,620 "How does the piping system work?" *giggling* 170 00:20:04,620 --> 00:20:09,789 Doma: "Is it still here?" And this is something which we like about software 171 00:20:09,789 --> 00:20:17,259 glitches. That you sometimes you get an understanding how a system works only of 172 00:20:17,259 --> 00:20:25,640 breaking it or by forcing it to throw errors. 173 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:36,039 Carmen: Then we... *the 2 lecturers discuss something, 174 00:20:36,039 --> 00:20:39,259 whispering* Carmen: Sorry. 175 00:20:39,259 --> 00:20:45,269 Doma: We need to discuss what we are speaking about. 176 00:20:45,269 --> 00:20:49,130 *laughter* Doma Okay, so we'll skip another project, 177 00:20:49,130 --> 00:20:56,429 because we are running out of the time. Carmen: I think the last piece we'd like 178 00:20:56,429 --> 00:21:07,942 to just quickly show you is very recent. We're still kind of amazed at this. So, 179 00:21:07,942 --> 00:21:21,409 this year, we were asked to do a book on our work and we felt... This was really 180 00:21:21,409 --> 00:21:25,929 difficult for us, because usually we do websites and you can change websites and 181 00:21:25,929 --> 00:21:30,789 then you do a book and you kind of... it's printed and then it's there and that 182 00:21:30,789 --> 00:21:37,250 really... it was very hard for us, but once we decided to do this, we kept 183 00:21:37,250 --> 00:21:43,590 thinking about "How can we break this very static print format of the book?" and 184 00:21:43,590 --> 00:21:51,049 together with the 2 designers of the book, Konrad Renner (???) and Christoph Knurz 185 00:21:51,049 --> 00:21:56,639 (???), we thought about... we said "Well, the title should be code, because maybe 186 00:21:56,639 --> 00:22:06,130 through the title, you could inject code into various websites, because books, 187 00:22:06,130 --> 00:22:15,090 they're online, you can buy them online. And we decided to go 188 00:22:15,090 --> 00:22:19,289 for as its title. 189 00:22:19,289 --> 00:22:25,769 Dona: JavaScript, which normally, like YAML, you can't write JavaScript into a 190 00:22:25,769 --> 00:22:30,700 commentary field on Facebook, because these things is parsed out and so the 191 00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:34,659 browser does not execute that code, so they check it, but we thought "Maybe if 192 00:22:34,659 --> 00:22:40,340 it's so deep in the databases, like the ISBN databases, the national 193 00:22:40,340 --> 00:22:46,110 bibliographies and whatever, it might pop up somewhere." 194 00:22:46,110 --> 00:22:47,200 *laughter* *applause* 195 00:22:47,200 --> 00:23:02,950 Carmen:And the book came out in September and then in October we realized that on 196 00:23:02,950 --> 00:23:16,131 Walther Kรถnig, which is a big art bookseller with a big online website, it 197 00:23:16,131 --> 00:23:21,940 worked, so when you search for "!Mediangruppe Bitnik" on the website... 198 00:23:21,940 --> 00:23:27,630 Hope this works... And you go to the catalog... 199 00:23:27,630 --> 00:23:34,730 *laughter* *applause* 200 00:23:34,730 --> 00:23:45,630 Doma: So, this one this one is pretty okay. I mean, normally if you... on other 201 00:23:45,630 --> 00:23:50,279 website it breaks the "buy" button, which is not in our interest, but... 202 00:23:50,279 --> 00:23:53,429 *laughter* Doma: So, you can still buy it on 203 00:23:53,429 --> 00:23:59,450 Buchhandlung Walther Kรถnig. Just click "okay" and then it's okay. So, here's just 204 00:23:59,450 --> 00:24:06,890 a small collection of 10, 12, which are popping up. It's like... everyday we get 205 00:24:06,890 --> 00:24:15,669 more. And we can show you a small video of 2, 3 pieces. 206 00:24:15,669 --> 00:24:25,890 Carmen: Don't know what we're going to see now. I think eBay. 207 00:24:25,890 --> 00:24:35,130 Doma: I don't know. Carmen: Okay. This is eBay. 208 00:24:35,130 --> 00:24:41,299 Doma: So, ebay.co.uk. *smartphone notification sound* 209 00:24:41,299 --> 00:24:47,909 Doma: BAM! And this only worked on or... they already fixed it, so somebody made a 210 00:24:47,909 --> 00:24:52,090 bug report. I like this one. *smartphone notification sound* 211 00:24:52,090 --> 00:24:54,740 *laughter* *smartphone notification sound* 212 00:24:54,740 --> 00:24:57,390 *laughter* *smartphone notification sound* 213 00:24:57,390 --> 00:25:00,039 *laughter* *smartphone notification sound* 214 00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:02,690 *laughter* *smartphone notification sound* 215 00:25:02,690 --> 00:25:05,350 *laughter* *smartphone notification sound* 216 00:25:05,350 --> 00:25:08,660 *laughter* *different smartphone notification sound* 217 00:25:08,660 --> 00:25:11,980 *laughter* Doma: So, thank you! 218 00:25:11,980 --> 00:25:13,960 Carmen: Thanks. *applause* 219 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:19,080 *herald speaks, but it is unintelligible due to technical problems* 220 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:48,339 Herald: We have 5 minutes for a very short Q&A if there are already people lying out 221 00:25:48,339 --> 00:25:52,390 (???). Please, number 2. M2: Very cool talk, thanks. I'm from 222 00:25:52,390 --> 00:25:58,111 Switzerland, so I wonder, you were lucky that you got dropped off the charges. How 223 00:25:58,111 --> 00:26:04,490 much would it got for the charges if you would not drop them? Do you know? 224 00:26:04,490 --> 00:26:08,760 Doma: I don't you know. I mean, it was basically or here it was about drug 225 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:17,620 possession and 10 ecstasy pills and we were totally okay to take this fine. We 226 00:26:17,620 --> 00:26:22,250 don't know it, but it was kind of... Carmen: It would have been fine, because 227 00:26:22,250 --> 00:26:28,080 in Switzerland, according to our lawyer, it would have been for personal use. I 228 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:34,279 mean, this is not the amount you carry around, apparently, if you're selling, so 229 00:26:34,279 --> 00:26:40,419 we would have gotten away with a fine. M2: So and I... Thanks very much that you 230 00:26:40,419 --> 00:26:46,570 said that actually writing the code and then the program buys it makes you 231 00:26:46,570 --> 00:26:56,041 actually responsible, right? So, would you... At the end you said, it was your... 232 00:26:56,041 --> 00:26:59,590 "I would take the charge", because you were writing the code... 233 00:26:59,590 --> 00:27:08,740 Carmen: Yes, the problem was that usually, at least in Swiss law, possession of drugs 234 00:27:08,740 --> 00:27:14,580 needs to mean that the drugs were either found on your person or in a space that 235 00:27:14,580 --> 00:27:21,679 can be... that definitely belongs to you. And the problem was that it was clear from 236 00:27:21,679 --> 00:27:27,049 the process that we hadn't touched the drugs and we didn't want somebody else to 237 00:27:27,049 --> 00:27:31,889 get fined for drug possession ; that would have made no sense. We wanted to also 238 00:27:31,889 --> 00:27:41,220 publicly discuss this... having to step up and say "No, it was us." 239 00:27:41,220 --> 00:27:45,049 M2: Thanks. Herald: Okay, final one. 240 00:27:45,049 --> 00:27:51,030 Microphone x: Hi. Sorry... thanks for the talk. I have to ask: Does the plumbing 241 00:27:51,030 --> 00:27:56,590 work? Carmen: Yeah. It works, because... so the 242 00:27:56,590 --> 00:28:06,580 pillars were... I'll try to explain briefly. So, architecturally this building 243 00:28:06,580 --> 00:28:15,269 was a storage for dry goods and the pillars used to support the building, but 244 00:28:15,269 --> 00:28:21,169 when they turned it into a museum, they actually filled the space between the 245 00:28:21,169 --> 00:28:27,159 pillars with insulation, so the pillars were gone. And then the architects didn't 246 00:28:27,159 --> 00:28:31,870 like it. They thought, the pillars should be there, because the building didn't look 247 00:28:31,870 --> 00:28:40,340 good, so they actually put fake pillars onto the facade again and so we could just 248 00:28:40,340 --> 00:28:46,080 take the empty pillars and cut them up and put the plumbing inside. So, now the 249 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:51,590 visible plumbing is fake, but the real plumbing is inside the pillars; that's how 250 00:28:51,590 --> 00:28:53,999 it works. *applause* 251 00:28:53,999 --> 00:29:08,880 Herald: Amazing work. One final, big round of applause for Mediengruppe Bitnik and 252 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:21,980 thanks for being here! Carmen: Thank you; thanks. 253 00:29:21,980 --> 00:29:24,569 Doma: Thank you. *applause* 254 00:29:24,569 --> 00:29:30,169 [Music] 255 00:29:30,169 --> 00:29:34,000 Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de in the year 2021. Join, and help us!