1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:17,060 *35C3 preroll music* 2 00:00:17,060 --> 00:00:22,360 Herald: I will now hand over the microphone to our moderator, Geraldine De 3 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:29,420 Bastion, who apart from the French name does not speak French. 4 00:00:29,420 --> 00:00:30,730 Thank you very much. 5 00:00:30,730 --> 00:00:31,580 *laughter* 6 00:00:31,580 --> 00:00:34,220 Geraldine De Bastion: Thank you so much for having me here and hopefully enough 7 00:00:34,220 --> 00:00:38,440 English to moderate the session. Hi everybody. My name is Geraldine and I'm 8 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:44,010 very proud to be moderating this session. Maybe a few words to kick off with; 9 00:00:44,010 --> 00:00:49,809 usually sessions at CCC come together because one person or team of people hand 10 00:00:49,809 --> 00:00:55,239 in a topic that they feel they would like to talk about here on one of these stages. 11 00:00:55,239 --> 00:00:59,960 This session came together because several people handed in sessions where they 12 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:04,770 wanted to address how they're trying to build communities or spaces that are 13 00:01:04,770 --> 00:01:09,460 specifically feminist, diverse, and inclusive. And we thought it would be a 14 00:01:09,460 --> 00:01:14,240 great idea to give not just one person who handed in a session, or two people, but 15 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,630 all the people who handed in sessions on this topic the stage. So this is how the 16 00:01:18,630 --> 00:01:21,780 session came together: by us grouping together different submissions on the 17 00:01:21,780 --> 00:01:27,460 topic. And so I'm very happy that we have five very interesting and excellent humans 18 00:01:27,460 --> 00:01:31,390 here to speak on the topic matter and will be presenting their different approaches 19 00:01:31,390 --> 00:01:35,680 and their different strategies to building feminist spaces and communities. And I'd 20 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:41,959 like to welcome them here on stage. So first off we have Hong Phuc who runs FOSS 21 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:46,210 Asia, which is a community in Asia/Southeast Asia for developing 22 00:01:46,210 --> 00:01:50,280 software and hardware specifically open source. Welcome Hong! 23 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:56,700 *applause* 24 00:01:56,700 --> 00:02:01,140 GdB: We have Azam and Sarah from Le RESET, which is a feminist 25 00:02:01,140 --> 00:02:03,461 queer hackerspace. 26 00:02:03,461 --> 00:02:09,670 *applause* 27 00:02:09,670 --> 00:02:15,250 GdB: Welcome! We have Em O'Sullivan former hackerspace and maker fair organizer, now 28 00:02:15,250 --> 00:02:20,180 researching how to improve women and non binary people's engagement in maker a 29 00:02:20,180 --> 00:02:21,860 spaces. Welcome Em! 30 00:02:21,860 --> 00:02:24,940 *applause* 31 00:02:24,940 --> 00:02:30,410 GdB: And last but not least we have Lena Mohr, who is a UX designer from Stuttgart, 32 00:02:30,410 --> 00:02:33,890 started an initiative called Ready to Code, teaching young girls to code. 33 00:02:33,890 --> 00:02:35,688 Welcome Lena. 34 00:02:35,688 --> 00:02:38,590 *applause* 35 00:02:38,590 --> 00:02:43,700 GdB: And as I said, my name is Geraldine de Bastion. I run a community called the 36 00:02:43,700 --> 00:02:47,750 Global Innovation Gathering, which is a network of different maker spaces, hacker 37 00:02:47,750 --> 00:02:52,890 spaces, different kind of innovation, makers and innovators across the world. So 38 00:02:52,890 --> 00:02:56,830 a quick housekeeping note for the session. The format is that we're going to give 39 00:02:56,830 --> 00:03:00,931 each of the teams here on stage the opportunity to present their work to you 40 00:03:00,931 --> 00:03:05,900 in about seven to 10 minutes, and then we'll get to gather here to discuss the 41 00:03:05,900 --> 00:03:10,922 difference and the likenesses in approaches and in perspectives, 42 00:03:10,922 --> 00:03:14,380 experiences and ideas. And then we would like to invite you all to join this 43 00:03:14,380 --> 00:03:20,500 discussion and open the floor. So to kick things off I would invite you first to 44 00:03:20,500 --> 00:03:24,420 share a little bit the story of FOSS Asia and your work at the last 10 years, Hong. 45 00:03:24,420 --> 00:03:31,540 Hong Phuc Dang: Thank you. I did not expect that I would go first, but that's 46 00:03:31,540 --> 00:03:58,850 okay. *shuffling* 47 00:03:58,850 --> 00:04:00,490 There we go. 48 00:04:00,490 --> 00:04:08,310 Hong Phuc Dang: Okay, so hello everyone! My name is Hong Phuc Dang, or HP Dang if 49 00:04:08,310 --> 00:04:14,250 you want to look for me on the web. So today I will talk about how I get involved 50 00:04:14,250 --> 00:04:19,849 in open source community in the first place, and also some highlights of my work 51 00:04:19,849 --> 00:04:26,380 at FOSS Asia during the past 10 years. Before that a little bit about my 52 00:04:26,380 --> 00:04:33,490 background. I was born and grew up in a small town in South Vietnam. It is called 53 00:04:33,490 --> 00:04:37,070 Can Tho, I don't know if any of you have been there before, but it's about 200 54 00:04:37,070 --> 00:04:47,400 kilometers south of Hoh Chi Minh City. This is my first 20 years of my life, so 55 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:54,310 I've been always there, feel like a confusing little girl because I keep 56 00:04:54,310 --> 00:05:00,530 wondering what I really want to achieve in my life. My family, my parents were not 57 00:05:00,530 --> 00:05:06,590 so... were poor at that time. In 1987, most of the families there were poor due 58 00:05:06,590 --> 00:05:11,910 to the war. We just finished the war and then the reform of Vietnam. My parents 59 00:05:11,910 --> 00:05:16,190 been working very hard so that me and my sister could have a better future. And the 60 00:05:16,190 --> 00:05:20,990 only motivation that I have in my life until I was 20: to get a very good job 61 00:05:20,990 --> 00:05:25,620 somewhere after graduation, so that I can earn some money, take care of my parents, 62 00:05:25,620 --> 00:05:32,760 and be able to afford something that I could never have when I was a kid. So this 63 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:37,590 is what I was thinking when I got to 20 years old. I went to school, I studied 64 00:05:37,590 --> 00:05:40,870 super super hard but I never had really interested in school and I also don't 65 00:05:40,870 --> 00:05:45,260 understand so much what I learn and get out of school. I just know that if I study 66 00:05:45,260 --> 00:05:53,360 hard I would have a good future. In 2007 I met Mario Behling who later on became my 67 00:05:53,360 --> 00:06:01,150 mentor and also a partner later on. Not on Tinder, but at a free event, a free 68 00:06:01,150 --> 00:06:05,479 technology event in Hanoi. In 2007 it was the first time I learned about free 69 00:06:05,479 --> 00:06:13,110 software. In the same year, I switched from Windows XP to Ubuntu and started to 70 00:06:13,110 --> 00:06:18,170 use open source. And then so I started to involve with different user groups in the 71 00:06:18,170 --> 00:06:24,229 region, and also contribute small bits, like localization into some software 72 00:06:24,229 --> 00:06:28,830 project. At the same time I also learned how to submit a bug report, make an issue 73 00:06:28,830 --> 00:06:35,480 to different projects. And by involving in the open source community I got to meet so 74 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:40,750 many interesting people that inspire me. So I always have very cool conversation 75 00:06:40,750 --> 00:06:45,810 with people who've been involved in one project for over 15, 20 years. That really 76 00:06:45,810 --> 00:06:49,400 inspired me, how people can be so persistent and continuously work on 77 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:53,290 something for so long. And when they talk about their job, is so positive and 78 00:06:53,290 --> 00:06:58,940 energetic. Even though it keeps repeating, but they're very patient and when I joined 79 00:06:58,940 --> 00:07:03,419 the community it's so good that people always like very patient and took their 80 00:07:03,419 --> 00:07:09,820 time to explain to you when you don't understand something. So two years later 81 00:07:09,820 --> 00:07:18,180 in 2009, Mario and I decided to found the FOSS Asia organization. So FOSS Asia, the 82 00:07:18,180 --> 00:07:23,979 goal of FOSS Asia is to bring together an inspired community across Asia, a lot of 83 00:07:23,979 --> 00:07:29,210 different communities to view a better future with open technologies. Since then 84 00:07:29,210 --> 00:07:33,729 we have developed so many different projects with the FOSS Asia communities. 85 00:07:33,729 --> 00:07:38,710 These are some of the software and also hardware projects that we've been working 86 00:07:38,710 --> 00:07:45,370 on. SUSI.AI is an alternative to Alexa or Google Home, and Pocket Science Lab is our 87 00:07:45,370 --> 00:07:50,430 newly released open hardware project. You can find all the projects on Github of 88 00:07:50,430 --> 00:07:54,400 FOSS Asia actually. Eventyay is an event solution that's similar to what you have 89 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:59,169 here, the*[unclear]*[???], just scheduling and also ticket selling open source did 90 00:07:59,169 --> 00:08:05,770 entirely by the FOSS Asia community. We also organize a lot of events, conferences 91 00:08:05,770 --> 00:08:09,020 and meet-ups throughout our regions. One of our biggest events is the FOSS Asia 92 00:08:09,020 --> 00:08:13,850 Summit, happens every year in March in Singapore. Throughout the year we also 93 00:08:13,850 --> 00:08:18,900 have smaller workshops and events in China, in India, Vietnam, Indonesia, 94 00:08:18,900 --> 00:08:27,830 Malaysia and many other places. Some of the highlights of my last 10 years. In 95 00:08:27,830 --> 00:08:32,270 2010 it was my first time into Europe. It was so difficult to get a visa to come 96 00:08:32,270 --> 00:08:36,159 here. I know, for many of you, but it was a big thing for me to enter Europe for the 97 00:08:36,159 --> 00:08:41,860 first time. I got invited to the Libre Graphics meeting. This is the photo taken 98 00:08:41,860 --> 00:08:46,929 when I was giving a talk. You can see it, I was super nervous at that time. And the 99 00:08:46,929 --> 00:08:50,040 next picture, after the talk I went to dinner with a group of friends, the people 100 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,360 from the Libre Graphics communities. I was the only girl but I did not realize that 101 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,189 until somebody comment on my Facebook, why you was the only girl in the picture. But 102 00:08:58,189 --> 00:09:06,949 it was really cool and very welcoming in the community. 2012 we built a hotel in 103 00:09:06,949 --> 00:09:14,029 our hometown Can Tho, and we labelled it the Open Source hotel. You can look up, 104 00:09:14,029 --> 00:09:19,879 Hotel Xoai is the name of the place. So basically it's built by the Open Source 105 00:09:19,879 --> 00:09:27,059 community member. So we set up the wireless network with OpenWRT. I did 106 00:09:27,059 --> 00:09:31,110 the entire wiring for the telephone myself. I did it for three weeks but I was 107 00:09:31,110 --> 00:09:36,870 very proud of it and we have the declaration inside the hotel is donated to 108 00:09:36,870 --> 00:09:42,170 us by the Libre Graphics community, so by some artists in that community. And in 109 00:09:42,170 --> 00:09:46,959 this space we hosted a lot of workshops and we hosted many open source 110 00:09:46,959 --> 00:09:51,940 contributors in our place. So we have dDebian developers, we have GIMP contributers, we 111 00:09:51,940 --> 00:09:56,610 have people from all over the world to come and stay with us in this space here 112 00:09:56,610 --> 00:10:03,220 in Vietnam. In the same year I also hosted the group of artists and designers that I 113 00:10:03,220 --> 00:10:09,439 met in Brussels in 2010 in Hoh Chi Minh City. So we did an open source design week 114 00:10:09,439 --> 00:10:19,300 in Saigon, and surprisingly more than 40% of the participants are female. So what we 115 00:10:19,300 --> 00:10:24,319 did in this design week, we showed people how to make artwork with free tools, with 116 00:10:24,319 --> 00:10:30,280 free software, and at the end we also made an exhibition, what kind of work that you 117 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:38,550 can do with free software. And 2014 it was my first time attending the CCC, and this 118 00:10:38,550 --> 00:10:44,329 is the first person that I met in the speaker room, who spend several minutes of 119 00:10:44,329 --> 00:10:47,489 his valuable time to explain to me what is the difference between free software and 120 00:10:47,489 --> 00:10:49,099 open source. 121 00:10:49,099 --> 00:10:50,189 *laughter* 122 00:10:50,189 --> 00:10:54,440 Hong Phuc Dang: But I was very happy I was also a speaker at that time, so we got a 123 00:10:54,440 --> 00:11:02,350 photo together. 2016 we launch Code Heat Program, which is an online coding 124 00:11:02,350 --> 00:11:07,350 programme done by the FOSS Asia community. So the goal of this program is to help 125 00:11:07,350 --> 00:11:12,269 young developers and contributors to start to work in open source software and how to 126 00:11:12,269 --> 00:11:17,800 become an active contributor to open source. So we have our FOSS Asia members 127 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,230 to guide them, so everything happenes on GitHub, we have GitHub channels where 128 00:11:21,230 --> 00:11:27,529 people can post questions. And at the end the winners will win a trip to the FOSS 129 00:11:27,529 --> 00:11:32,519 Asia Summit and present about their working experience during the programme. 130 00:11:32,519 --> 00:11:39,800 2018. So we released our Pocket Science Lab to the market. So the project been 131 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:46,239 going on for the past two years and we will finally produce them in China and now 132 00:11:46,239 --> 00:11:52,470 started to distribute them all over the world. So we have a shop in Japan which 133 00:11:52,470 --> 00:11:58,480 has sold out in two days. We also distributed in India, in Singapore, in 134 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:03,259 Europe and it's been piloting in school in Singapore, in India and also in Vietnam. 135 00:12:03,259 --> 00:12:08,569 So basically it's a small device that helps you to make science experiments. 136 00:12:08,569 --> 00:12:14,899 It's an oscilloscope with logic analyzer and many different functions. We have a 137 00:12:14,899 --> 00:12:21,700 workshop here as well at the CCC if you want to find out more. Okay some of my 138 00:12:21,700 --> 00:12:26,769 approach and lesson learned for the question about what strategy that you do 139 00:12:26,769 --> 00:12:31,290 to engage many people in the community and how to rear the communitiy. So what I 140 00:12:31,290 --> 00:12:36,360 learned from the past 10 years: The first thing is to be sincere with whoever you 141 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:42,600 meet. That how my reaction in the community to be sincere with people, and 142 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:47,279 empower the people in the community. Just like when I first joined the community, 143 00:12:47,279 --> 00:12:52,269 the more responsibility to give to people, they feel empower and they, it's also 144 00:12:52,269 --> 00:12:57,160 better to scale up the community. Motivation; in order to work with people 145 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,939 and to find the right approach you need to understand the motivation behind 146 00:13:00,939 --> 00:13:08,790 individuals and it's really important to rear the community. And my philosophy is 147 00:13:08,790 --> 00:13:12,509 it always better by sharing. So we share our knowledge, that what's the reason we 148 00:13:12,509 --> 00:13:19,019 are here – we share our resources and we bring people together. Finally, in the 149 00:13:19,019 --> 00:13:23,899 FOSS Asia community, I made friends. Their friendship is important over the years and 150 00:13:23,899 --> 00:13:27,569 I know that the people I've been working with or engaged with will be friends for 151 00:13:27,569 --> 00:13:34,079 life – so that is a good thing about the free software community. And next year 152 00:13:34,079 --> 00:13:40,069 2009 will be our 10-year milestone of the FOSS Asia organization. We have a big 153 00:13:40,069 --> 00:13:43,929 celebration in Singapore between March 14 and 17. If you happen to be there or you 154 00:13:43,929 --> 00:13:51,249 plan a trip to Asia you are very welcome to join us. The website 2019.fossasia.org. 155 00:13:51,249 --> 00:13:56,239 And here at the CCC we have a group of FOSS Asia member flew in from Singapore, 156 00:13:56,239 --> 00:14:01,639 from France, from Spain and also in Germany. We have a laser cutter here, 157 00:14:01,639 --> 00:14:07,650 built by a FOSS Asia member in Singapore, open source laser cutter. The small 158 00:14:07,650 --> 00:14:12,220 picture here is [???] carrying it and is at our FOSS Asia assembly if you want to 159 00:14:12,220 --> 00:14:18,720 check it out. If you want to get in touch with us, or you want to look for me at the 160 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:24,639 end of the talk, you can search on the navigation app for FOSS Asia and our 161 00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:31,439 number is a 8575. Thank you. 162 00:14:31,439 --> 00:14:36,329 *applause* 163 00:14:36,329 --> 00:14:40,309 GdB: Thank you very much Hong for that introduction into FOSS Asia and your work. 164 00:14:40,309 --> 00:14:44,151 Azam, Sarah, would you like to go next to present Le RESET? 165 00:14:44,151 --> 00:14:52,129 Le Reset speaker (left): Okay so we both come from France. We are part of Le RESET, 166 00:14:52,129 --> 00:15:00,159 which is a feminist and queer hacker space and we're going to explain a little bit 167 00:15:00,159 --> 00:15:10,089 what we are doing, why we're doing it and how. So our hacker space welcomes actively 168 00:15:10,089 --> 00:15:18,439 people who usually do not feel safe or included in many other hacker spaces. So 169 00:15:18,439 --> 00:15:28,429 mostly queer persons and women, because most of straight men feel really entitled 170 00:15:28,429 --> 00:15:36,929 to learn and share what they learn and teach everything. And on the other side 171 00:15:36,929 --> 00:15:43,120 you have queer persons and women who have major imposter syndrome when it comes to 172 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:52,769 technology. We observe these things and also that the solutions to fix all issues 173 00:15:52,769 --> 00:16:02,269 are also designed by straight men so they are not adequate with our issues and that 174 00:16:02,269 --> 00:16:08,660 we have a big lack of transmission in our communities. So as we were to the geeky 175 00:16:08,660 --> 00:16:15,569 ones around queers and queer ones around geeks we did Le RESET to have a space that 176 00:16:15,569 --> 00:16:21,699 is the intersection of queer and geek people. So it takes place in a queer bar 177 00:16:21,699 --> 00:16:37,449 in Paris every Sunday. And I'm really scared, I'm sorry. We started in 2016 and 178 00:16:37,449 --> 00:16:44,970 we speak directly to women and queers so that they feel welcome and included and 179 00:16:44,970 --> 00:16:52,419 would come to our space. We built a code of conduct that we may discuss further, 180 00:16:52,419 --> 00:17:07,020 that we embody so we endorse it and not just write it somewhere. So our basis are 181 00:17:07,020 --> 00:17:14,199 feminist ethics based on the "Ethics of Care" by Joan Tronto. We do workshops for 182 00:17:14,199 --> 00:17:22,150 beginners every session and we really insist on the things for beginners. The 183 00:17:22,150 --> 00:17:28,170 workshops are mainly hosted by queer or women and we do not treat differently 184 00:17:28,170 --> 00:17:36,990 infosec, coding, gaming, crafts, care practice and all the things we do not make 185 00:17:36,990 --> 00:17:45,280 a hierarchy. We analyzed the board dynamics with material feminism and 186 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:50,370 most of our projects are cyber feminists. Le Reset speaker (right): So I'm going to 187 00:17:50,370 --> 00:17:54,870 talk a little more about some projects that we have at Le Reset, what is it, so I 188 00:17:54,870 --> 00:18:00,290 took three different examples. The best example is the crypto bar. So it's 189 00:18:00,290 --> 00:18:07,390 basically a one on one crypto party with just one person as they were launched by 190 00:18:07,390 --> 00:18:14,380 Asher Wolf and those security talks, they are menu oriented toward cyber harassment 191 00:18:14,380 --> 00:18:20,890 because women and queer people usually ask us about security issues when they have 192 00:18:20,890 --> 00:18:25,020 trouble with cyber harassment. And so we have identified it to be the main threat 193 00:18:25,020 --> 00:18:32,130 model for us, and not like the NSA or something else. Another example of a 194 00:18:32,130 --> 00:18:38,420 project that we have is "everything about health reappropriation". So as women and 195 00:18:38,420 --> 00:18:44,010 queers our health is often in the hands of doctors that don't explain stuff to us or 196 00:18:44,010 --> 00:18:48,020 that don't do what we want them to do with our health because they have norms that 197 00:18:48,020 --> 00:18:54,520 we're supposed to follow. And so we work around. We work with transgender people 198 00:18:54,520 --> 00:19:01,640 around hormones and also with trans people and women around gynecology. And so we 199 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:09,290 have a partnership with women doing self gynecology workshops. So we create zines 200 00:19:09,290 --> 00:19:14,500 and we share knowledge and practices about those and we also have a lab project that 201 00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:19,330 is inspired by the je ne peine club from Calafou and also by 202 00:19:19,330 --> 00:19:23,690 the Open Source estrogen project by Mary Maggic that was presented in the CCC last 203 00:19:23,690 --> 00:19:27,030 year [https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9036-ope n_source_estrogen]. And so the goal of 204 00:19:27,030 --> 00:19:31,120 this lab project is to take and analyze our own cervical smear so that we can do 205 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:37,390 an our own analysis with it. And the third project I wanted to talk about was "the 206 00:19:37,390 --> 00:19:41,130 queer games". So the queer games is an artistic and political movement that was 207 00:19:41,130 --> 00:19:45,510 initiated by an Entrepeneur Mattie Brice. So the idea is that they're using 208 00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:49,890 game design as a tool to criticize oppression systems. And so we're doing 209 00:19:49,890 --> 00:19:56,160 monthly queer games workshops in order to empower queer people. We empower them 210 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,690 through rendering our own narratives visible through video games and also by 211 00:19:59,690 --> 00:20:04,751 learning skills to make our own video games, even though most people who come 212 00:20:04,751 --> 00:20:12,190 don't have any idea of how to code, so we also learn coding through it. 213 00:20:12,190 --> 00:20:22,350 GdB: Thank you very much *applause* 214 00:20:22,350 --> 00:20:25,522 GdB: Thank you for that introduction into your work. I think a lot of points raised 215 00:20:25,522 --> 00:20:30,212 that we're gonna debate also in a minute. Em, can I ask you to go next. 216 00:20:36,292 --> 00:20:40,850 Em O'Sullivan: I didn't have any slides but I do have some notes and my story is 217 00:20:40,850 --> 00:20:45,231 maybe a bit different to my other panelists because I don't come from a 218 00:20:45,231 --> 00:20:50,920 specifically feminist organization. I live in Brighton in the UK and our hackerspace 219 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:56,310 is called Build Brighton. It started in 2009 so it was a fairly early hackerspace 220 00:20:56,310 --> 00:21:02,370 in the UK. It grew out of an existing meetup that was focused on robotics and 221 00:21:02,370 --> 00:21:06,620 some of the people involved in that group decided to set up their own hackerspace. 222 00:21:06,620 --> 00:21:12,630 So it began fairly organically. It was inspired largely by the early U.S. hacker 223 00:21:12,630 --> 00:21:18,610 spaces in particular Mitch Altman visited the robotics meetup when he was in 224 00:21:18,610 --> 00:21:22,420 Brighton and basically said, "hey you look like the kind of group who should start a 225 00:21:22,420 --> 00:21:28,450 hackerspace" and that kind of triggered the idea to go and set one up. So, it 226 00:21:28,450 --> 00:21:33,750 followed the same kind of ad hoc kind of democracy structure. It had some informal 227 00:21:33,750 --> 00:21:40,170 leaders but things were kind of largely decided by group consensus. For example 228 00:21:40,170 --> 00:21:45,390 when we first moved into our own dedicated space, we spent the first couple of years 229 00:21:45,390 --> 00:21:50,030 meeting once a week in a coworking space and then in 2011 had an opportunity to get 230 00:21:50,030 --> 00:21:53,871 our own workshop and the decision about whether to do that was put to the entire 231 00:21:53,871 --> 00:21:57,630 membership around whether we wanted to take on that responsibility, those extra 232 00:21:57,630 --> 00:22:01,840 costs and that decision was passed by consensus and that's kind of how things 233 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:07,250 have typically been done. In terms of activities there's a lot of electronics 234 00:22:07,250 --> 00:22:12,280 projects typically, especially with it going out to robotics group. The laser 235 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,380 cutter has always been really popular and was one of the first tools that was bought 236 00:22:15,380 --> 00:22:19,450 by the group. And we've recently had lots of wood work workers coming in because we 237 00:22:19,450 --> 00:22:24,770 do have a fairly well-developed wood working shop. In terms of gender diversity 238 00:22:24,770 --> 00:22:30,500 is also a fairly typical hackerspace. There's currently 115 members of which 239 00:22:30,500 --> 00:22:36,670 around 10 to 15 percent are women or femme presenting people and the aim of that 240 00:22:36,670 --> 00:22:40,890 statistic isn't to point out like how low this representation is in this particular 241 00:22:40,890 --> 00:22:47,690 space. It's to highlight that this is a typical number for a hackerspace. For me 242 00:22:47,690 --> 00:22:53,060 personally, a bit like Hong Phuc said, I'm used to being in masculine spaces like I 243 00:22:53,060 --> 00:22:58,940 trained in media production originally which is very male dominated. Then when I 244 00:22:58,940 --> 00:23:04,970 went to work in IT it was normal for me to be at events that were mainly men and I 245 00:23:04,970 --> 00:23:10,680 suppose I just got used to this and it became invisible to me. At the time I was 246 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,720 working for a software development company in Brighton and the company had two 247 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:19,750 offices one for the technical team and one for the rest of the staff. So like admin 248 00:23:19,750 --> 00:23:25,770 team, production team, HR, finance and so on. My desk was in the tech room and I 249 00:23:25,770 --> 00:23:29,520 looked up one day and realized that I was the only femme presenting person in a room 250 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:36,470 of 20 men. It took that to kind of dropped me back into realizing how weird the 251 00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:41,820 situation was and I also realized that "Build Brighton", my hackspace, was a 252 00:23:41,820 --> 00:23:47,620 similar environments as well. And I became really interested in why this was 253 00:23:47,620 --> 00:23:52,710 happening, because hacker spaces they are theoretically open environments, like our 254 00:23:52,710 --> 00:23:58,300 space anyone can join. Membership is on a pay what you can basis from five pounds a 255 00:23:58,300 --> 00:24:03,790 month. So the financial cost to entry are very low. But we are still seeing the same 256 00:24:03,790 --> 00:24:08,860 issues as in other technology environments and that's women and femme people were 257 00:24:08,860 --> 00:24:16,430 very underrepresented. I saw this as a useful opportunity to look at the cultural 258 00:24:16,430 --> 00:24:21,860 issues that continue to prevent women's engagement in technology spaces even when 259 00:24:21,860 --> 00:24:27,460 some of those structural and financial barriers have been removed. And the reason 260 00:24:27,460 --> 00:24:31,830 this was really important to me as a topic was because like for me personally joining 261 00:24:31,830 --> 00:24:36,960 my hackerspace was an extremely empowering experience. I didn't have much experience 262 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,700 before with DIY, with hardware, with working with materials, and joining that 263 00:24:41,700 --> 00:24:46,000 community and having access to those tools and that knowledge had a huge impact on 264 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:51,140 how I see the world around me, on my confidence to fix and adapt things when I 265 00:24:51,140 --> 00:24:56,160 need to and I really want more people to have access to that empowerment. 266 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:01,080 Especially people who don't necessarily have existing experience with technology. 267 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:07,770 So in 2016 I began my PhD looking at how some hacker spaces and maker spaces have 268 00:25:07,770 --> 00:25:11,880 been more successful than others in engaging women and femme people. I'm 269 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,950 currently still in the data collection phase of my research, but I visited 270 00:25:15,950 --> 00:25:20,360 various hacker spaces and maker spaces around Europe and the US, spoken to lots 271 00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:25,720 of people from these spaces and seen a wide range of approaches to dealing with 272 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:33,360 gender diversity, ranging from acute hostility towards any suggestion of 273 00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:37,350 specifically trying to engage women, right through to spaces that have made this a 274 00:25:37,350 --> 00:25:42,711 core part of that group culture. So I hope that range of perspectives can come in 275 00:25:42,711 --> 00:25:48,190 useful to discussion today. And I'm also currently putting together a zine with 276 00:25:48,190 --> 00:25:52,540 contributions from hacker spaces and maker spaces that have developed inclusive 277 00:25:52,540 --> 00:25:57,210 practices, not necessarily focused on gender but also on engaging other 278 00:25:57,210 --> 00:26:02,150 underrepresented groups like people of color, people with disabilities, people 279 00:26:02,150 --> 00:26:07,350 with lower socio economic statuses because I think it's really important that those 280 00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:11,510 practices are publicized as widely as possible so that other spaces can learn 281 00:26:11,510 --> 00:26:15,400 from them. So if any of you have any suggestions about spaces that should be 282 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:22,450 included in that zine please do email me. My contact details are on the Fahrplan and 283 00:26:22,450 --> 00:26:32,890 I would love to hear about any spaces that you could recommend. 284 00:26:32,890 --> 00:26:42,550 GdB: Thank you! And last but not least Lena. Lena Mohr: I'm Lena, I'm one of the three 285 00:26:42,550 --> 00:26:47,390 founders of "ready to code". We are an organization based based in Stuttgart in 286 00:26:47,390 --> 00:26:56,500 the south of Germany. Our story started... so know first what we do is we inspire 287 00:26:56,500 --> 00:27:01,220 women and girls to learn how to code and to work in tech and support each other. 288 00:27:01,220 --> 00:27:06,821 There are two main reasons why we do what we do. I think the first one is quite 289 00:27:06,821 --> 00:27:12,340 obvious that there are not enough women who work in tech, and the second one is 290 00:27:12,340 --> 00:27:17,010 more personal because I am a user experience designer, and part of my 291 00:27:17,010 --> 00:27:21,440 studies was learning how to code and I found it extremely difficult because I had 292 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:27,440 all these biases and pictures in my head and I just knew that I was going to fail 293 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:34,270 at coding before I ever wrote my first line of code. I was not alone with this. I 294 00:27:34,270 --> 00:27:42,130 saw this and a lot of my friends and a lot of the girls who studied with me. And the 295 00:27:42,130 --> 00:27:47,150 good news is that we had to pass the exam so we sort of had to learn it. and I also 296 00:27:47,150 --> 00:27:54,030 had really great and really patient friends who not only taught me to code and 297 00:27:54,030 --> 00:27:59,809 taught me the facts but also convinced me that I was able to do that. And the moment 298 00:27:59,809 --> 00:28:04,630 when you clicked like you said that was a really empowering moment, because I felt 299 00:28:04,630 --> 00:28:10,540 like the not only the knowledge opened a whole new world of opportunities, but also 300 00:28:10,540 --> 00:28:15,309 the self-confidence that I gained through that. And that is what we also want to 301 00:28:15,309 --> 00:28:23,130 share with other women and girls. So what we do is we run workshops for women and 302 00:28:23,130 --> 00:28:30,710 for girls and like Le Reset we make sure that they are for a beginner so everyone 303 00:28:30,710 --> 00:28:34,610 can participate, and I think we're probably going to talk about that as well 304 00:28:34,610 --> 00:28:41,300 a little bit further. And we also have a networking event that's called cocktails 305 00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:48,550 and code where women in tech can meet and connect and share their experiences and we 306 00:28:48,550 --> 00:28:52,540 organize lightning talks from female speakers so yeah people who are new to 307 00:28:52,540 --> 00:28:59,830 tech can come and it's fairly low level and everyone can participate. And we also 308 00:28:59,830 --> 00:29:03,910 organize different events. For example a couple of weeks ago we organized a social 309 00:29:03,910 --> 00:29:10,180 hackathon on and I think what we do a little bit different is that one of our 310 00:29:10,180 --> 00:29:18,290 founders is a guy, a straight cis guy. So a lot of the volunteers that are working 311 00:29:18,290 --> 00:29:25,970 for us are also male and we had a lot of good experiences with this because we 312 00:29:25,970 --> 00:29:30,011 think it's important to include everyone. But we talked a little bit before and I 313 00:29:30,011 --> 00:29:34,350 think we're going to have a discussion about that afterwards as well, that a lot 314 00:29:34,350 --> 00:29:41,010 of women who come to us are also looking for females only space, so they really 315 00:29:41,010 --> 00:29:46,290 appreciate a safer space where they can just be around other women. 316 00:29:46,290 --> 00:29:59,350 GdB: Thank you very much, Lena. So as you've heard we have very different work 317 00:29:59,350 --> 00:30:03,920 rounds that say very different rooms of experiences. And we'd like to just jump 318 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,630 right into discussion. We're going to take about 15, 20 minutes to discuss a little 319 00:30:07,630 --> 00:30:12,710 bit amongst ourselves before opening and including all of you in the debate. So 320 00:30:12,710 --> 00:30:18,490 let's pick up straight the point that you closed with and I'd like you to join in 321 00:30:18,490 --> 00:30:24,380 but I think I'll direct the question at you first. Sometimes we have to, or it 322 00:30:24,380 --> 00:30:29,721 seems that way, we'd have to be exclusive in order to increase inclusion or 323 00:30:29,721 --> 00:30:33,670 fairness. And if I understood you correctly you've created a space that 324 00:30:33,670 --> 00:30:39,772 doesn't necessarily exclude anybody but it doesn't put straight men in the focus. Can 325 00:30:39,772 --> 00:30:43,480 you explain a little bit exactly how you try to shape that community that you're 326 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,480 working with and where you're where you drew the line of inclusion and exclusion 327 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:55,210 in your approach. Le Reset speaker (right): So we have a 328 00:30:55,210 --> 00:30:59,580 code of conduct. Everybody is welcome to come into hackerspace as long as they 329 00:30:59,580 --> 00:31:07,030 apply to the code of conduct. So we are open to everyone but everything that we 330 00:31:07,030 --> 00:31:12,050 organize is directed to queer people and women. So our communication is oriented 331 00:31:12,050 --> 00:31:18,580 towards them. The workshops organized also by queer people and women. So basically we 332 00:31:18,580 --> 00:31:21,870 just don't care about straight men. Gdb: But they can come. 333 00:31:21,870 --> 00:31:31,864 Le Reset speaker (right): They can come. (laughter and applause) 334 00:31:31,864 --> 00:31:32,970 Gdb: Lena you said one of your founders is 335 00:31:32,970 --> 00:31:38,240 a straight man, so that's something that you do that you do differently. 336 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,500 Lena: We just started a year ago so we are also still trying our different 337 00:31:42,500 --> 00:31:48,270 approaches. And I like what you said that, I think you mentioned that they are 338 00:31:48,270 --> 00:31:57,250 invited if they want to come but you're not marketing for them. You saw our logo. 339 00:31:57,250 --> 00:32:03,720 And in the first workshop that we ran for kids we said it's only for girls. And the 340 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,620 second one we said we have reserving a number of seats for girls because we want 341 00:32:07,620 --> 00:32:13,380 to increase diversity and no boy signed up. So from now on we're not even putting 342 00:32:13,380 --> 00:32:19,710 it's only for girls on our flyers but because it looks so girly no boys 343 00:32:19,710 --> 00:32:23,820 interested in joining us apparently and I think that's interesting because usually 344 00:32:23,820 --> 00:32:29,400 it works the other way around so probably subconsciously or unconsciously it's 345 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:37,210 posters or websites look like they're made for boys or for guys and women don't feel 346 00:32:37,210 --> 00:32:43,020 attrackted to it. And we do it the other way around and it works quite well. But 347 00:32:43,020 --> 00:32:47,610 yeah. But we also have men that are asking us like "Oh we we also like cocktails and 348 00:32:47,610 --> 00:32:53,999 code, Why can't we join?" And it's like yeah of course you can. You're welcome. We 349 00:32:53,999 --> 00:32:56,740 didn't have any negative experience with it so far. 350 00:32:56,740 --> 00:33:01,490 GdB [to Em O'Sullivan]: you're going to be our academic sounding board at this panel. 351 00:33:01,490 --> 00:33:05,830 In the research that you've conducted, do you see certain kinds of trends emerging 352 00:33:05,830 --> 00:33:13,370 or sort of maybe perhaps as a strength of certain strategies of those hacker spaces 353 00:33:13,370 --> 00:33:20,230 or communities or programs that try to specifically target not straight men but 354 00:33:20,230 --> 00:33:25,400 other communities. On the question of "how exclusive do you have to be, to be 355 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,380 inclusive". Em O'Sullivan: So, I've been to spaces 356 00:33:30,380 --> 00:33:34,140 that are women only or women and non binary people only, and they're really 357 00:33:34,140 --> 00:33:39,890 important for getting over the question of "is it just that women aren't interested" 358 00:33:39,890 --> 00:33:43,510 which is something that I've encountered in a few spaces. It's like well you know 359 00:33:43,510 --> 00:33:46,670 we're not excluding women they just don't seem to be interested. They're not coming 360 00:33:46,670 --> 00:33:50,270 here. And then when you provide a women only space and women go there, then you 361 00:33:50,270 --> 00:33:53,390 can point to that and go: Well okay that's just not true. That must be something 362 00:33:53,390 --> 00:33:57,940 about these other spaces that isn't including them. But then the next step is 363 00:33:57,940 --> 00:34:03,000 how do you get that inclusion to work in an all gender space. Because, we live in 364 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,770 an all gender world. And how do you it take out of those safe spaces and take it 365 00:34:07,770 --> 00:34:15,899 into other environments and that there does need to be a specific aim to be 366 00:34:15,899 --> 00:34:22,220 inclusive. It's interesting that you say it's like, we don't exclude men. We just 367 00:34:22,220 --> 00:34:28,961 kind of don't focus stuff on them. And that seems to be the approach of maker 368 00:34:28,961 --> 00:34:32,730 spaces, and hacker spaces in general. Except there's no recognition of that. 369 00:34:32,730 --> 00:34:35,549 There's that, well, we don't exclude women. You know, they're just not here. 370 00:34:35,549 --> 00:34:39,279 Like, they could come here and there's not the recognition that all of their 371 00:34:39,279 --> 00:34:43,329 presentation, like all of the their culture, from the outside looks like it's 372 00:34:43,329 --> 00:34:46,659 geared towards men. And so of course that's the kind of people that they 373 00:34:46,659 --> 00:34:50,519 attract. But yeah, they haven't made that decision, it's just what they're doing and 374 00:34:50,519 --> 00:34:55,519 there's no recognition of it. So yeah, to change that there does have to be a 375 00:34:55,519 --> 00:34:59,089 recognition that if you want to attract people from different groups then you do 376 00:34:59,089 --> 00:35:03,799 need to reach out and specifically engage them. it's not going to just happen by 377 00:35:03,799 --> 00:35:07,280 itself. GdB: Thank you. Hong, how has it been for 378 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:13,920 you in the last 10 years of managing FOSS Asia? Because, there's another level that 379 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,869 comes in. You do this across different cultures and across different countries 380 00:35:17,869 --> 00:35:23,829 within Southeast Asia. How do you find that it's developed over the last 10 381 00:35:23,829 --> 00:35:29,680 years, and how much do you have to put an emphasis on trying to bring in not just 382 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,489 women, but perhaps also people from different backgrounds into your community. 383 00:35:33,489 --> 00:35:39,410 Hong Phuc Dang: So, if you look at Southeast Asia, and I look at and FOSS 384 00:35:39,410 --> 00:35:44,960 Asian community we find diverse and inclusive. It would take forever to talk 385 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,960 about of different cultures from Singapore, Malaysia. It's also related to 386 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:55,660 the religions and the culture of each country. But, could I ask the Le RESET 387 00:35:55,660 --> 00:36:01,440 hackerspace a question? I was curious. I kind of have the same opinion with Em. I 388 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:07,470 was curious, was there any experience in the past that motivated you to create a 389 00:36:07,470 --> 00:36:13,740 base that or focus more on women instead of men. Is there any bad experience, an 390 00:36:13,740 --> 00:36:20,159 incident that occurred to you? Le Reset speaker: Yes, of course. 391 00:36:20,159 --> 00:36:23,539 Hong Phuc Dang: Could you share a little bit about it? Because, I always say I, 392 00:36:23,539 --> 00:36:28,230 fought it passive, you know that maybe I was lucky, because in our community I 393 00:36:28,230 --> 00:36:34,329 haven't experienced that much of a kind of incident that make me feel that I need a 394 00:36:34,329 --> 00:36:39,280 space for myself. Because when I joined the open source community, I feel that 395 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:44,670 everyone's very welcome, and also people don't look at you as who you are. People 396 00:36:44,670 --> 00:36:47,983 always look at your work and your contribution to the community. So, 397 00:36:47,983 --> 00:36:51,140 sometimes you're in a conversation and you don't even realize that you are with a 398 00:36:51,140 --> 00:36:56,940 bunch of other people from Europe or men. You focus on the topic, and the work that 399 00:36:56,940 --> 00:37:02,384 you do. So I'm curious to learn about the incident that you had before. 400 00:37:02,384 --> 00:37:07,270 Le Reset speaker (left): I have a few examples if you want, but I think it's not 401 00:37:07,270 --> 00:37:12,091 about what you can do or not, that it's about coming in the space and you feeling 402 00:37:12,091 --> 00:37:19,880 that you can come here and stay and be well welcomed. So, as a woman actually... 403 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:30,569 I'm sorry I'm a little sick. The people were asking if I came with my boyfriend, 404 00:37:30,569 --> 00:37:37,319 where he was. So, they were wondering what I was doing here, because I was a woman. 405 00:37:37,319 --> 00:37:42,499 So, sorry, I don't have any boyfriend, will never have one, but many girlfriends. 406 00:37:42,499 --> 00:37:53,559 So, no. And also, I was waiting to do lock picking and waiting in the line to do 407 00:37:53,559 --> 00:37:57,820 that. When I came to the tools the guy said: Oh sorry, you have to leave the 408 00:37:57,820 --> 00:38:04,716 place for the guy, because I was just here to look not to try. Many things like that. 409 00:38:04,716 --> 00:38:06,400 Hong Phuc Dang: Did that lock picking happen here at a congress? 410 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,319 Le Reset speaker (left): Yeah, I know. Hong Phuc Dang: Okay, so now we know what 411 00:38:09,319 --> 00:38:14,160 prevent women from joining the tech community. So maybe it wasn't intentional? 412 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,200 GdB (to Hong Phuc Dang): So you, I mean I think it's really interesting what you 413 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,060 said, when in your community and experience you have you see the code and 414 00:38:21,060 --> 00:38:25,770 not the gender. I think a lot of people here in the room. I'm guessing it came to 415 00:38:25,770 --> 00:38:28,809 the session but also on the panel have had really different experiences, but of 416 00:38:28,809 --> 00:38:33,619 course this is really positive here. Maybe even a little bit surprising to hear, 417 00:38:33,619 --> 00:38:40,480 because perhaps that would have been maybe a stereotypical perception that in some 418 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,559 other societies which are part of South/Southeast Asia the very traditional 419 00:38:44,559 --> 00:38:50,200 and it's maybe not so typical for women to be or people of different backgrounds. 420 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,890 Maybe, like I said not just women but also people of different educational 421 00:38:52,890 --> 00:38:55,960 backgrounds of different cultural backgrounds to be part of this community. 422 00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:01,589 But of course it's very nice to hear that you've had a very different experience. 423 00:39:01,589 --> 00:39:06,480 That's I think a keyword that we've heard from many of you and you also mentioned 424 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:11,499 your core values is empowerment and creating empowerment empowering 425 00:39:11,499 --> 00:39:17,140 experiences for others. You've already said a little bit about how you try to do 426 00:39:17,140 --> 00:39:21,200 that and giving people space to create their own narratives. Do you want to share 427 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,000 a little bit more, what have been like successes for you were you noticed this 428 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:34,791 has been working for your commu nity. Lena Mohr: Maybe I could start? 429 00:39:34,791 --> 00:39:39,440 Le Reset speaker(right): Go on. Lena Mohr: I think one of the women who 430 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:44,119 came to our meetup afterwards. She came to us and she was really happy and she said 431 00:39:44,119 --> 00:39:49,009 like: "Ok, I have a place where I can be among my geek friends and talk about geeky 432 00:39:49,009 --> 00:39:52,930 stuff and I have my feminist friends to whom I can come and talk about feminist 433 00:39:52,930 --> 00:39:58,190 stuff and but I never had both." So I have friends and I think it's also important 434 00:39:58,190 --> 00:40:01,450 that you mentioned that it wasn't it probably wasn't intentional, when someone 435 00:40:01,450 --> 00:40:04,950 asks you like: "Hey where's your boyfriend?". Maybe it was trying to start 436 00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:06,940 a conversation, but that doesn't make it any better. 437 00:40:06,940 --> 00:40:09,380 Le Reset speaker (left): I'm not sure, but... 438 00:40:09,380 --> 00:40:13,589 Lena Mohr: Ok, that's even... GdB: Yeah, I mean I can also say like I 439 00:40:13,589 --> 00:40:17,940 have the same experience regularly and it's an... Even in spaces where I've been 440 00:40:17,940 --> 00:40:25,500 member for years and that I really love dearly and I think you know you sort of at 441 00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:32,020 least me, past me I never try to take offense, but of course it is offensive and 442 00:40:32,020 --> 00:40:36,019 this is something we had a quick chat about your level of tolerance for this. 443 00:40:36,019 --> 00:40:42,820 The threshold of acceptance is for me at least becomes less and less and I think we 444 00:40:42,820 --> 00:40:47,390 had a quick conversation and one of the keywords was patience. So, when you have 445 00:40:47,390 --> 00:40:52,869 tried to sort of, yeah, already create spaces that are different for communities 446 00:40:52,869 --> 00:40:57,460 like all of ours that are different you want... You know, you expect more 447 00:40:57,460 --> 00:41:02,871 basically. Expect people to be better at this game and things to change faster. So 448 00:41:02,871 --> 00:41:05,420 I think the sort of level of frustration that builds up when you find it is not 449 00:41:05,420 --> 00:41:10,529 changing as you know just as you said in your talk. It's shocking to hear that that 450 00:41:10,529 --> 00:41:14,069 level of apprehension of including women and doing things to actually really 451 00:41:14,069 --> 00:41:18,920 support women coming in and making sure all parts of society are equally 452 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:24,060 represented is still that strong. Do you... Have you looked into like the "why" 453 00:41:24,060 --> 00:41:26,650 a little bit in your research. Em O'Sullivan: Like something that's 454 00:41:26,650 --> 00:41:32,829 really interesting is that, in the absence of groups like people with disabilities is 455 00:41:32,829 --> 00:41:41,680 more readily seen as something that can be helped by changing the space by 456 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:48,729 introducing kind of ramps, wheelchair access technologies and rearranging the 457 00:41:48,729 --> 00:41:52,650 space, so that it's more accessible. But then when it comes to cultural aspects, 458 00:41:52,650 --> 00:41:56,749 such as including women, that seen as something that's unchangeable. So spaces 459 00:41:56,749 --> 00:42:01,460 are often willing to change to be more diverse, but they have kind of a mental 460 00:42:01,460 --> 00:42:06,279 block on being able to include people like women or people of color, who they see as 461 00:42:06,279 --> 00:42:10,696 more kind of. There's no way that these groups can come and join us. They're just 462 00:42:10,696 --> 00:42:14,160 not interested and so like that's a very unusual thing to see. 463 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:20,460 GdB: So you mentioned earlier, that you have a code of conduct. And... and I think 464 00:42:20,460 --> 00:42:24,290 that's, I'd love to hear like, how did you develop this code of conduct for your 465 00:42:24,290 --> 00:42:27,799 community? And is this sort of a living thing? Did you come up with this in the 466 00:42:27,799 --> 00:42:31,410 beginning and it's been set like that or is it something that you revise and how do 467 00:42:31,410 --> 00:42:35,299 you implement it? Le Reset speaker (left): Actually it's a 468 00:42:35,299 --> 00:42:42,519 really simple code of conduct with 10 phrases and sentences and it says not to 469 00:42:42,519 --> 00:42:48,999 discriminate anybody and to respect boundaries and things that are making us 470 00:42:48,999 --> 00:42:57,740 all live together well. That's the important thing is that we endorse it 471 00:42:57,740 --> 00:43:08,200 really, so we put it on the walls. We talk about it and we observe the dynamics into 472 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:16,999 the hackerspace. What do people do. How do they feel we welcome them. We apply ethics 473 00:43:16,999 --> 00:43:25,729 of care that do the things I was talking about. We help people, but we do not do 474 00:43:25,729 --> 00:43:30,809 things on their behalf. We do not speak for the persons, but we are here to 475 00:43:30,809 --> 00:43:34,680 support, if they need. That's how it works. 476 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,569 GdB: So are there many cases, where you find, you need to mediate or have you had 477 00:43:38,569 --> 00:43:42,599 cases where you've had to exclude people based on your code of conduct? 478 00:43:42,599 --> 00:43:47,940 Le Reset speaker (right): We haven't excluded many people, but we feel totally 479 00:43:47,940 --> 00:43:54,190 fine with having to exclude someone, we're not afraid of it. But usually we try to 480 00:43:54,190 --> 00:44:00,660 talk to the person before we have to get them out and remind them of the code of 481 00:44:00,660 --> 00:44:08,819 conduct. Our code of conduct is something that we have to apply, but it's also full 482 00:44:08,819 --> 00:44:14,359 of keywords and so the idea is that every time we're saying that organizing a 483 00:44:14,359 --> 00:44:18,050 workshop or doing your conference we talk about it and we tell people to read it 484 00:44:18,050 --> 00:44:22,900 before they come. So that they also can google the words that they don't know, so 485 00:44:22,900 --> 00:44:28,380 that they come into hackerspace and they know what it means to actually respect 486 00:44:28,380 --> 00:44:35,420 somebodies pronouns or things like this. GdB: So. How would you all balance sort of 487 00:44:35,420 --> 00:44:40,539 the mission of what your space is about to do and what your communities are there to 488 00:44:40,539 --> 00:44:46,320 do in terms of creating safe space for the people that you have as part of your 489 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:53,150 community and educating the rest of the world. 490 00:44:53,150 --> 00:45:03,900 Hong Phuc Dang: I can say something. So code of conduct is a good way to ensure 491 00:45:03,900 --> 00:45:10,050 that safe space for people. And in terms of inclusiveness, so there, so I think 492 00:45:10,050 --> 00:45:14,500 that in order to solve this problems at first, is a good way that we bring people 493 00:45:14,500 --> 00:45:19,509 together who can talk about the challenges and incidents; that they had in the past 494 00:45:19,509 --> 00:45:24,839 so that the people in the audience also aware that they might not intentionally 495 00:45:24,839 --> 00:45:29,819 raise this question. But now people aware of what could be offense do to another 496 00:45:29,819 --> 00:45:33,359 members. But I think one of the bigger challenge is that the people in the 497 00:45:33,359 --> 00:45:40,059 community sometimes people are not aware of the level the difference of background 498 00:45:40,059 --> 00:45:45,309 of different people in the community. For instance, I want to give one example. So, 499 00:45:45,309 --> 00:45:50,759 when you visit one of the hackersspace in Singapore. Normally when you come in even 500 00:45:50,759 --> 00:45:56,160 though this is your first time entered a hackerspace, nobody would come and talk to 501 00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:00,239 you, try to introduce to you to the space, what other equipment is, because they 502 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,249 assumed that you already have the knowledge. If you enter this, there's got 503 00:46:03,249 --> 00:46:08,900 to be good you know everything. And sometime I found a little bit intimidated 504 00:46:08,900 --> 00:46:14,071 that I did not understand some joke that make by my male colleagues, because they 505 00:46:14,071 --> 00:46:19,210 have different kind of knowledge coming from the west from Europe or America. So 506 00:46:19,210 --> 00:46:22,700 it's very important that we are aware that people coming from different backgrounds. 507 00:46:22,700 --> 00:46:25,920 So something that you think that is so obvious to you that might not be obvious 508 00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:31,950 to people. And it might raise some kind of conflict and misunderstanding. Something 509 00:46:31,950 --> 00:46:36,779 if we are all aware, that piece of knowledge we have might not be relevant to 510 00:46:36,779 --> 00:46:45,460 another person and always be aware and be more flexible, then that could be less 511 00:46:45,460 --> 00:46:50,580 complex in the community in my opinion. GdB: So again like I said 512 00:46:50,580 --> 00:46:56,429 (applause) GdB: you're free to applaud. 513 00:46:56,429 --> 00:47:03,799 GdB: How do you try to balance that? Le Reset speaker (right): We welcome 514 00:47:03,799 --> 00:47:08,430 everybody that comes into this space. We're here every Sunday, so we usually 515 00:47:08,430 --> 00:47:12,630 know who has come before and who hasn't. And every time we see a new person there 516 00:47:12,630 --> 00:47:16,990 is always someone who comes and explain the code of conduct, but also like: what 517 00:47:16,990 --> 00:47:23,200 is this space, where you can find the stickers, where is the workshop. So we 518 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,910 explain everything. GdB: I think that sounds really nice. I 519 00:47:26,910 --> 00:47:30,619 think from what you've explained there's a lot of magic in that very personal 520 00:47:30,619 --> 00:47:37,119 approach. You know, it's not that you're like take them into your space when they 521 00:47:37,119 --> 00:47:40,990 come in, but it's like this taking care of each other and looking out for one 522 00:47:40,990 --> 00:47:45,130 another, which should be part of respectful human conduct. No matter what 523 00:47:45,130 --> 00:47:51,650 kind of human you are. Right. Maybe one last topic on the panel before we open up 524 00:47:51,650 --> 00:47:56,390 a little bit or maybe wanted to. I thought it was really interesting to read on one 525 00:47:56,390 --> 00:48:02,660 of the little things on your slide. I really like the one that said, I was writing 526 00:48:02,660 --> 00:48:07,950 too fast now I can't read my own writing: "It is just privileged people's choice."? 527 00:48:07,950 --> 00:48:18,900 So in my experience very often we create spaces like yours or like community, or 528 00:48:18,900 --> 00:48:24,339 creating the mind of creating. Bringing in new people and giving people, who maybe 529 00:48:24,339 --> 00:48:30,869 haven't had sort of their typical tech career, a chance to explore and see that 530 00:48:30,869 --> 00:48:35,059 they can be the creators of technology themselves. But we end up also creating 531 00:48:35,059 --> 00:48:40,249 kind of bubbles and usually attracting people with a certain background, usually 532 00:48:40,249 --> 00:48:46,009 creating spaces with people. We live in Europe, we're like, you know, middle class 533 00:48:46,009 --> 00:48:51,119 white communities. And that's also, perhaps, not the level of playing fields, 534 00:48:51,119 --> 00:48:54,569 when it comes to creating inclusive technology. Is that something that you 535 00:48:54,569 --> 00:48:58,530 address in your spaces? I'm not looking at you specifically because it's a little bit 536 00:48:58,530 --> 00:49:03,770 of a different intercultural setting that you have with FOSS Asia. But how does 537 00:49:03,770 --> 00:49:07,960 that come into play, when we talk about diversity in your experiences? 538 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:15,339 Le Reset speaker (left): Actually we are located in a queer bar. So the people that 539 00:49:15,339 --> 00:49:23,719 are used to come to this bar to party and date - they also come on Sundays, so we 540 00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:31,420 have people that would never enter a hacker space, you know, in other times. So we 541 00:49:31,420 --> 00:49:42,920 have, actually, met many women, many trans people and queer people. One time we had 542 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:47,619 this girl, who never touched a computer. We have people who have never played video 543 00:49:47,619 --> 00:49:54,870 games and so on. So we have really diverse public. 544 00:49:54,870 --> 00:49:57,550 GdB: I think that's also interesting as that was mentioned before the setting of 545 00:49:57,550 --> 00:50:01,499 where your space actually is, which is a really important fact of how to make 546 00:50:01,499 --> 00:50:06,840 spaces accessible to different communities as well. How's that for the space that you 547 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,650 have out there? Em: So this is such a tricky question and 548 00:50:09,650 --> 00:50:14,260 particularly with the volunteer one spaces. You have a limited amount of time 549 00:50:14,260 --> 00:50:19,660 and energy and do you spend that on educating people, or do you spend it on 550 00:50:19,660 --> 00:50:26,239 engaging with people, who can use your resources. And I lean towards the 551 00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:31,650 engagement. I feel that it's important to kind of get people in and to share what we 552 00:50:31,650 --> 00:50:36,839 already have with other groups. There are resources out there, where people can 553 00:50:36,839 --> 00:50:41,299 educate themselves - like people in technology communities, like very 554 00:50:41,299 --> 00:50:45,349 intelligent people, like they are more than capable of kind of finding other 555 00:50:45,349 --> 00:50:52,950 resources and educating themselves. And if the group has the capacity, for example, 556 00:50:52,950 --> 00:50:58,650 to run workshops around specific issues, around consents, around kind of 557 00:50:58,650 --> 00:51:03,239 introductions to feminism and other topics - then that's great. And that can be a 558 00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:09,009 great way of educating our own community and also taking those ideas into the 559 00:51:09,009 --> 00:51:16,249 outside community. But I think if it was... if time was limited then I would 560 00:51:16,249 --> 00:51:21,330 definitely want to dedicate more to engagement rather than educating people 561 00:51:21,330 --> 00:51:25,529 who are capable of educating themselves. Le Reset speaker (right): About that 562 00:51:25,529 --> 00:51:29,930 education. Our hackerspace has been invited to give feminism 101 talks 563 00:51:29,930 --> 00:51:36,829 like a lot. And so we answered yes to those invitation and then we did not do 564 00:51:36,829 --> 00:51:40,940 feminism 101, because we believe that there has been enough talks about 565 00:51:40,940 --> 00:51:45,359 feminism 101 already and there is plenty of things available on the 566 00:51:45,359 --> 00:51:53,920 Internet. So we make usually talks about ethics of care or cyber feminism. And 567 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:59,969 every time we go somewhere we have a wiki page about it with all the links about 568 00:51:59,969 --> 00:52:07,730 four lines definition on Wikipedia or 40 pages PDF that you can download, or 569 00:52:07,730 --> 00:52:12,270 podcasts, so all the feminism 101 and all the education has already been 570 00:52:12,270 --> 00:52:17,440 done. So we are making sure that it's accessible and then we are moving on, 571 00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:21,650 because as you said we don't have this energy to do again and again what other 572 00:52:21,650 --> 00:52:32,209 have done before us. *applause* 573 00:52:32,209 --> 00:52:35,799 Lena: I think you've mentioned it already. And I think you're also working 574 00:52:35,799 --> 00:52:41,329 voluntarily or a lot of volunteers come and so, do they have the time and energy? 575 00:52:41,329 --> 00:52:46,589 As for me it's also sometimes... I'm just not in the mood to explain everything 576 00:52:46,589 --> 00:52:53,140 again, like the really 101 stuff. But other times, when I feel like someone 577 00:52:53,140 --> 00:52:58,299 is really curious and really wants to learn something, and is respectful, and is 578 00:52:58,299 --> 00:53:06,079 not trying to provoke a discussion just to have a discussion - because then, yeah, I 579 00:53:06,079 --> 00:53:10,190 don't know... With some persons I feel like: okay, for him it might be a fun 580 00:53:10,190 --> 00:53:13,920 discussion just to, I don't know, just to test the borders and see how far you can 581 00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:19,310 go. But for me it's like: okay I'm talking if I have the right to be here as a woman 582 00:53:19,310 --> 00:53:22,690 and I don't always feel like I want to discuss that. 583 00:53:22,690 --> 00:53:28,969 GdB: Your patience level is going down as well. Hong Phuc, how is it for you, how do 584 00:53:28,969 --> 00:53:33,880 you try to engage people in open source communities that perhaps wouldn't normally 585 00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:42,219 walk into a hackerspace? Or don't yet know about the work that you do. 586 00:53:42,219 --> 00:53:53,569 Hong Phuc Dang: Yeah. So I found FOSS Asia. And then for me it was quite lucky, 587 00:53:53,569 --> 00:53:59,239 because the founder of the organization is a female. So it also help make other 588 00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:04,250 people feel more comfortable to engage with the open source community. But I 589 00:54:04,250 --> 00:54:14,359 think as Em and Lena also said that the number of women, who work in the tech 590 00:54:14,359 --> 00:54:23,390 community, is very small. And I think it's important to understand that when you talk 591 00:54:23,390 --> 00:54:26,630 about technology - it's not only about coding, because there are so many 592 00:54:26,630 --> 00:54:33,089 different responsibilities and a possibility that you could engage the 593 00:54:33,089 --> 00:54:39,339 woman or other community members in the community. So it's important to have the 594 00:54:39,339 --> 00:54:44,109 guide lines to help people, a lot of good documentation. To show people that by 595 00:54:44,109 --> 00:54:49,619 joining the community the first step you did not have to fix a bug or write a line of 596 00:54:49,619 --> 00:54:53,469 code in order to join the community. You can do a translation, you can do design, 597 00:54:53,469 --> 00:54:59,380 localization - many things that any single one of us can be involved in, can 598 00:54:59,380 --> 00:55:06,239 contribute as our space. So I think that is one step to lower the barriers to enter 599 00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,369 the community. GdB:Thank you. 600 00:55:09,369 --> 00:55:16,309 *applause* GdB: I'd like to start opening up the 601 00:55:16,309 --> 00:55:20,960 questions and comments. We have I think two microphones here in the center of the 602 00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:29,569 room and... you're first. Mic: Hello. First of all thank you girls 603 00:55:29,569 --> 00:55:34,200 very much for this session. I kind of relate to that, we're so to say from the 604 00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:42,680 same club. I came from Estonia and there I'm the organizer of the conference women 605 00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:50,509 in cybersecurity and also head of Google women tech makers in Estonia. And I can 606 00:55:50,509 --> 00:55:55,880 rely to a lot of things, which you have mentioned. But what I am really interested 607 00:55:55,880 --> 00:56:03,069 because you're from different countries is... Ms Dong has answered this question 608 00:56:03,069 --> 00:56:09,229 partially, but I'm interested in other answers. How do you actually attract more 609 00:56:09,229 --> 00:56:14,039 women into IT? Not from the marketing perspective, but from the perspective for 610 00:56:14,039 --> 00:56:22,069 your mission of your hacker space or your community. And how do you make those 611 00:56:22,069 --> 00:56:26,720 people stay and come to the events or, if not come to the events, how do you make 612 00:56:26,720 --> 00:56:33,150 them thinking of that and continue studying? Yeah. And the success story that 613 00:56:33,150 --> 00:56:38,420 is something what we all would be really interested in hearing. Because, for 614 00:56:38,420 --> 00:56:43,359 example, from Ms. Dong's story we can see the open source projects I guess still a 615 00:56:43,359 --> 00:56:48,160 lot of girls might have been involved there; and the hotel and other projects. 616 00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:52,289 But what about the Europe? Tell us, that's very curious. Thank you. 617 00:56:52,289 --> 00:56:57,329 GdB: Thank you very much. So we collect a couple and then go around or how would you 618 00:56:57,329 --> 00:57:01,829 like to do it? Mic: I can remind the questions if needed. 619 00:57:01,829 --> 00:57:08,240 How do you attract, how do you keep people and how do you... the success stories. 620 00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:13,180 GdB: Thank you. So let's do that. Do you have your community, is it very 621 00:57:13,180 --> 00:57:16,910 fluctuating? Or do you have a kind of stable group of people? Do you ever have a 622 00:57:16,910 --> 00:57:19,980 problem of connecting them back to your space? 623 00:57:19,980 --> 00:57:26,779 Mic: Just before we start from the answer for ladies - there is something else I 624 00:57:26,779 --> 00:57:28,960 wanted to mention. I also come not from a.... 625 00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:33,059 GdB: There is a long queue behind you, and we've already collected a couple of 626 00:57:33,059 --> 00:57:34,059 questions, so maybe just one more sentence. 627 00:57:34,059 --> 00:57:37,589 Mic: Of course. Yeah. Thank you... No, then go ahead for the answer. 628 00:57:37,589 --> 00:57:43,540 GdB: Okay. Thank you. How long time is your community, how much does it 629 00:57:43,540 --> 00:57:47,430 fluctuate, how do you sort of keep people? Le Reset speaker (right): We have people 630 00:57:47,430 --> 00:57:52,819 that come like every Sunday and we have people, who come just for one workshop, 631 00:57:52,819 --> 00:57:57,920 because they've been interested in that topic. What we do to attract people is 632 00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:04,089 that every Sunday we have a workshop, at least one workshops, so people are usually 633 00:58:04,089 --> 00:58:09,069 interested in the topic or just interested in meeting new people. But they always 634 00:58:09,069 --> 00:58:13,799 know that they won't just stand there and have nobody to talk to. There is a 635 00:58:13,799 --> 00:58:19,749 workshop, like they have a purpose for being here. And because the topics are 636 00:58:19,749 --> 00:58:25,940 always oriented towards women and queer we don't have any issue attracting women and 637 00:58:25,940 --> 00:58:30,640 queers in the hackerspace. We've never had a majority of straight men in the 638 00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:36,589 hackerspace that has never happened. GdB: Thank you. So Em, and your 639 00:58:36,589 --> 00:58:40,029 experience? Em: Well, I mean it's a huge question how 640 00:58:40,029 --> 00:58:46,890 do you attract women into IT and retain shortthem. Just to keep my answer fairly sure: 641 00:58:46,890 --> 00:58:53,279 one particular tip I have is to get a bit academic for a second, kind of focus on 642 00:58:53,279 --> 00:58:57,309 developing like the social bonds within your community rather than necessarily the 643 00:58:57,309 --> 00:59:02,569 tech aspects. Like when people have friends and people they care about in this 644 00:59:02,569 --> 00:59:07,959 community - they're much more likely to join it and want to stay there and to get 645 00:59:07,959 --> 00:59:14,519 more out of it. So sometimes focusing on things that seem quite tangential like 646 00:59:14,519 --> 00:59:18,980 socializing and people spending time together, like outside of the physical 647 00:59:18,980 --> 00:59:24,380 space and kind of doing like fun non tech things together, like can actually do that 648 00:59:24,380 --> 00:59:27,369 job of bringing more women than and femme people in and helping them to feel 649 00:59:27,369 --> 00:59:31,920 comfortable and welcome there. GdB: I think there's a challenge maybe the 650 00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:37,759 other way around too. In my experience it's for many people spaces, like the ones 651 00:59:37,759 --> 00:59:43,440 that you create, become a home and so sort of keeping people, having people want to 652 00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:48,589 be part of that home is not so hard. But making sure that you remain open for new 653 00:59:48,589 --> 00:59:53,440 people to sort of join that family and feel as equally welcome can sometimes be 654 00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:59,739 an even bigger challenge than attracting people and keeping them in the beginning. 655 00:59:59,739 --> 01:00:04,930 Next question. Mic: So my question will mostly be related 656 01:00:04,930 --> 01:00:10,709 to this mergery of the feminist hacker spaces and the male hacker spaces. So I 657 01:00:10,709 --> 01:00:17,690 see that you are making spaces for women and for a queer to get creative, but 658 01:00:17,690 --> 01:00:21,599 making these separate from other hacker spaces in a bit of an isolation and I 659 01:00:21,599 --> 01:00:29,269 guess this would be a next step to merge these kind of societies. So from a male 660 01:00:29,269 --> 01:00:33,539 perspective it's sometimes hard to understand what female don't find 661 01:00:33,539 --> 01:00:40,770 attractive or find distracting about joining male societies, because feminist 662 01:00:40,770 --> 01:00:48,410 activism usually do not target male to express what the problem is. So what do 663 01:00:48,410 --> 01:00:54,680 you think that could be done towards this mergery? So to make women try to get 664 01:00:54,680 --> 01:01:04,470 involved in male hacker spaces and to make men more acceptive to female. So this 665 01:01:04,470 --> 01:01:11,509 mergery to get involved together. I hope my question was on this... 666 01:01:11,509 --> 01:01:17,660 *laughing* GdB: You can all feel free 667 01:01:17,660 --> 01:01:26,886 Le Reset speaker (right): I don't think our goal is to merge our hacker spaces. We 668 01:01:26,886 --> 01:01:30,420 are creating hacker spaces around our issues, if you want to come you're 669 01:01:30,420 --> 01:01:35,789 welcome. But what you will find here is things that concerns us. But of course 670 01:01:35,789 --> 01:01:43,730 you're welcome. And... *applause* 671 01:01:43,730 --> 01:01:46,160 Le Reset speaker (right): We don't have any interest in your issues so we're not 672 01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:50,169 coming to your hacker spaces. But... *applause* 673 01:01:50,169 --> 01:01:57,160 Mic: Yeah. I understand this. And I don't think that what you do is wrong. I just 674 01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:01,320 think that this is a sort of isolation between two different kinds of creative 675 01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:03,320 energy. GdB: Let's... 676 01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:07,079 Le Reset speaker (right): I think you've been in isolation much more longer than 677 01:02:07,079 --> 01:02:09,079 us. *applause* 678 01:02:09,079 --> 01:02:11,449 Mic: I mean probably separation, not isolation. 679 01:02:11,449 --> 01:02:17,579 GdB: Let's.. Again I'm gonna say, there are many people queuing behind you, so we 680 01:02:17,579 --> 01:02:20,239 do want to get in a conversation with everyone, but we want to give everybody 681 01:02:20,239 --> 01:02:26,119 the chance to speak as well. I think I'm gonna rephrase your question if I may, 682 01:02:26,119 --> 01:02:31,759 when it comes to the actual creation of technology. Because I think that... let's 683 01:02:31,759 --> 01:02:34,119 see if there are two separate things or not: the one thing is that you have a 684 01:02:34,119 --> 01:02:37,640 community and you have a space for that community, and you want to prioritize the 685 01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:42,489 issues of your community. The other question is when we create technology and 686 01:02:42,489 --> 01:02:45,999 we create technology for the general public. How do we ensure that that 687 01:02:45,999 --> 01:02:51,529 technology is created by the public as in all members of that public and then 688 01:02:51,529 --> 01:02:56,180 reflects all of our values equally. Le Reset speaker (right): I don't believe 689 01:02:56,180 --> 01:02:58,180 in the general public. GdB: Sorry? 690 01:02:58,180 --> 01:03:00,949 Le Reset speaker (right): I don't believe in the general public. 691 01:03:00,949 --> 01:03:09,069 *applause* Hong Phuc Dang: So I could answer your 692 01:03:09,069 --> 01:03:14,240 question. I also don't want to give comment about if we merging the two 693 01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:19,089 groups. But if you want to make your space, any hacker space, more welcome to 694 01:03:19,089 --> 01:03:23,769 woman or any member, the first thing: just like in a normal context - if you have a 695 01:03:23,769 --> 01:03:27,930 new guest coming to your home, the first thing is that to show the guest around. 696 01:03:27,930 --> 01:03:35,169 Like to interact with a person and to be patient, and show them what they can do. 697 01:03:35,169 --> 01:03:38,650 And also one thing that I mentioned earlier: because people have different 698 01:03:38,650 --> 01:03:42,469 background knowledge so it's more important that you find out what is their 699 01:03:42,469 --> 01:03:47,859 motivation, to get to know the people better. So make this more like the women 700 01:03:47,859 --> 01:03:52,630 feel more comfortable to come you to your space instead of asking them to merge 701 01:03:52,630 --> 01:03:56,390 together with another space. Just create a more friendly environment in your space. 702 01:03:56,390 --> 01:04:00,099 By just approaching the people, the newcomers and welcome them. 703 01:04:00,099 --> 01:04:07,079 *applause* GdB: Next person please. 704 01:04:07,079 --> 01:04:15,730 Mic: So I have some more of experience to share than the question. I organize events 705 01:04:15,730 --> 01:04:24,740 for geeks and they are very male heavy, let's say. And what I found is when it 706 01:04:24,740 --> 01:04:32,150 comes to disabled people and that the community is more likely to actually 707 01:04:32,150 --> 01:04:37,489 change is because then they change environment and they don't have to change 708 01:04:37,489 --> 01:04:39,489 themselves. *applause* 709 01:04:39,489 --> 01:04:44,819 Mic: The huge problem usually is that the male populated hacker space are generally 710 01:04:44,819 --> 01:04:54,210 community in general, feel that when they have to open to female presence or a gay 711 01:04:54,210 --> 01:05:00,289 presence, etc. they have to change their own behavior. And that it's not something 712 01:05:00,289 --> 01:05:04,630 they are willing to do. Sadly enough. Thanks. 713 01:05:04,630 --> 01:05:10,179 GdB: Thank you. Was that question in there you just wanted to share. Okay good. Thank 714 01:05:10,179 --> 01:05:12,709 you. There's an online question we'd like to take next please. 715 01:05:12,709 --> 01:05:16,680 Signal Angel: The question was answered. GdB: Oh... 716 01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:20,604 *laughing* GdB: Okay then. In that case. 717 01:05:20,604 --> 01:05:25,589 Mic: Hello. Thank you. First of all thank you for all of your great work. I just 718 01:05:25,589 --> 01:05:29,940 want to have a question about something that maybe a little bit missed in this 719 01:05:29,940 --> 01:05:34,309 conversation. And so we talked about all of the communities and the hacker spaces 720 01:05:34,309 --> 01:05:41,480 that focused on a woman and non binaries. But imagine a scenario that there is a 721 01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:47,170 company or there's like a startup and there is not much diversity and we want to 722 01:05:47,170 --> 01:05:55,140 improve like representation of people of marginalized group or anyway. How 723 01:05:55,140 --> 01:06:00,569 we can achieve that? There are lots of suggestions like hire people who are like 724 01:06:00,569 --> 01:06:07,569 visible to others, to be very open about this and try to attract more people. But 725 01:06:07,569 --> 01:06:13,359 is there any sort of way to talk to get these successful stories about to improve 726 01:06:13,359 --> 01:06:19,930 the diversity of companies and startups and other types of communities? 727 01:06:19,930 --> 01:06:28,470 GdB: Thank you. Lena: I think it's often you have biases 728 01:06:28,470 --> 01:06:34,209 sometimes in the hiring process, so maybe you go through different CVs of different 729 01:06:34,209 --> 01:06:39,959 persons and then you... I only know examples from Germany, but I guess it's 730 01:06:39,959 --> 01:06:45,569 the same everywhere. If you read a CV with a name that sounds foreign to you, you 731 01:06:45,569 --> 01:06:49,700 might put it to the side or might automatically think: okay maybe this 732 01:06:49,700 --> 01:06:58,900 person is not equally capable. Even if the skills are the same. And also in your job 733 01:06:58,900 --> 01:07:04,180 descriptions you can make sure that it's more inclusive so you don't say like: okay 734 01:07:04,180 --> 01:07:12,890 the perfect person "he" should have this and that's, put "he and she". And I think 735 01:07:12,890 --> 01:07:18,829 a lot of times it's about really really subtle changes and small things. And like 736 01:07:18,829 --> 01:07:21,369 you said it's a change of the mindset. So it's... 737 01:07:21,369 --> 01:07:24,771 GdB: Yeah, please. Le Reset speaker (left): Actually, you 738 01:07:24,771 --> 01:07:30,239 know, in Le Reset we do not value success stories at all. We don't care. We value 739 01:07:30,239 --> 01:07:35,630 partnership. Partnership and being well together, and that's what works actually. 740 01:07:35,630 --> 01:07:41,920 We do many things, but not by pushing things. To be a woman or queer, or 741 01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:47,709 whatever... we do what we want to do, what we like and that works. That's just that. 742 01:07:47,709 --> 01:07:50,189 Mic: Thank you. GdB: Thank you. 743 01:07:50,189 --> 01:07:55,819 *applause* GdB: Maybe we can exchange after this. Oh 744 01:07:55,819 --> 01:07:59,779 there's a lot of great written walks already out there that give advice to 745 01:07:59,779 --> 01:08:03,819 companies and startups that want be more inclusive. But like the the simplest thing 746 01:08:03,819 --> 01:08:08,599 if, like you said it yourself, if you want to be inclusive - have an inclusive team. 747 01:08:08,599 --> 01:08:14,279 You cannot have an inclusive or diverse startup if your team are all men and the 748 01:08:14,279 --> 01:08:18,820 excuse that you didn't find the right people out there doesn't really go. Either 749 01:08:18,820 --> 01:08:22,580 because, like you said, then maybe you're looking the wrong way. And if you 750 01:08:22,580 --> 01:08:26,350 seriously can't find anybody with a skillset you're looking for - then help 751 01:08:26,350 --> 01:08:31,500 people build that skillset. So there are always ways to actually do that in your 752 01:08:31,500 --> 01:08:40,440 team. Please. Mic: Hi. Six of you proposed talks. We got 753 01:08:40,440 --> 01:08:45,600 one talk. Yes you are six awesome women. It's an awesome topic. We've got an 754 01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:50,569 audience of roughly 50/50. It's one of the most balanced audiences I've seen that 755 01:08:50,569 --> 01:08:55,870 this entire event, but I'm pretty certain that the men in here are majority male 756 01:08:55,870 --> 01:09:01,170 allies. The women you're preaching to the perverted here, why is it that we have 757 01:09:01,170 --> 01:09:07,650 allowed ourselves to be gerrymandered in this way. Why do we have only one session. 758 01:09:07,650 --> 01:09:22,620 Why do we not have six sessions. *applause* 759 01:09:22,620 --> 01:09:31,600 Mic: Adams, Borg, Clark, Dijkstra. The meeting rooms are named after men! Women 760 01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:36,520 are 50/50 of the population. Why are we allowing this to happen. I appreciate. I'm 761 01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:40,447 looking you in the eye and I'm guilty here of preaching to perverted too. But 762 01:09:40,447 --> 01:09:45,060 why are we allowing it. Why is it happening. It's 2018. It's soon to be 763 01:09:45,060 --> 01:09:57,960 2019. We deserve better. *applause* 764 01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:02,959 Hong Phuc Dang: Thank you. Thank you very much for your concern. But I think that... 765 01:10:02,959 --> 01:10:06,590 don't you think that is good to bring people together because, of course like we 766 01:10:06,590 --> 01:10:11,980 can have separate section, but it also very good to have everyone come together 767 01:10:11,980 --> 01:10:14,980 and share their opinions so we can have a conversation, in which we can learn for 768 01:10:14,980 --> 01:10:19,240 each other. So again that the congress is very busy. Not everyone can come to every 769 01:10:19,240 --> 01:10:24,400 single talk. Maybe we'll not be able to attend always our friends who are the 770 01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:28,350 panelists here. But it's good that we can come all together. So are always pro and 771 01:10:28,350 --> 01:10:31,710 con. But thank you very much for your concern. 772 01:10:31,710 --> 01:10:34,480 *applause* GdB: We have exactly time for one last 773 01:10:34,480 --> 01:10:37,210 question/intervention and that shall be you. 774 01:10:37,210 --> 01:10:42,730 Mic: Thank you. Thank you for the talk and thank you for this opportunity. I'm 775 01:10:42,730 --> 01:10:49,100 probably in the category of a straight male engineer. But I also more or less... 776 01:10:49,100 --> 01:10:55,290 but I also have, I'm running a coworking space in Copenhagen and I'm specifically 777 01:10:55,290 --> 01:11:00,620 focusing on making it inclusive. So I'll be trying to find an information and tips 778 01:11:00,620 --> 01:11:08,860 on how to do that. But I have two other questions then. What would be your top 779 01:11:08,860 --> 01:11:17,340 three action points on ending the digital gender divide? It's a big topic, I know. 780 01:11:17,340 --> 01:11:21,400 *laughing* GdB: There's a small question for the end 781 01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:22,990 of session. Mic: Yeah. 782 01:11:22,990 --> 01:11:26,120 GdB: And you had a second one even. Mic: Yeah. The second one was... 783 01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:30,120 *laughing* Mic: I guess that's, I mean, I really see 784 01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:36,370 the points being raised about designing. I mean just down to the level of design: 785 01:11:36,370 --> 01:11:40,730 designing a website targeted to a male audience versus targeted to a female 786 01:11:40,730 --> 01:12:02,230 audience. And the second question was... What was that... The FOSS Asia. In Asia I 787 01:12:02,230 --> 01:12:08,440 read an article lately from after access magazine about Internet usage throughout 788 01:12:08,440 --> 01:12:14,730 the global south. And it's thus in Asia you have like 20 percent of the population 789 01:12:14,730 --> 01:12:20,960 on the Internet. Do you see that as a problem? And what do you think could be 790 01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:23,980 done about it? GdB: Okay so how do we close the digital 791 01:12:23,980 --> 01:12:30,480 divide as such and how to close the gender divide. Specifically. Okay. Thank you. 792 01:12:30,480 --> 01:12:36,270 Hong Phuc Dang: And I don't want to announce that I am suggested we have a 793 01:12:36,270 --> 01:12:42,470 after panel discussion, so we hosted a follow up discussion at the FOSS Asia 794 01:12:42,470 --> 01:12:45,890 assembly after this. If you have more questions and you want to continue the 795 01:12:45,890 --> 01:12:53,150 conversation we can meet there at 8:15? GdB: 8:15 to 9:15. We're not dodging your 796 01:12:53,150 --> 01:12:59,500 question or we're just going to move it to that meetup. I hope that's okay. As we 797 01:12:59,500 --> 01:13:02,530 have run over time. But I would like to end maybe with a little bit of a closing 798 01:13:02,530 --> 01:13:08,941 round, because I think this came out of a number of statements that you made, on 799 01:13:08,941 --> 01:13:14,700 your specific and of course work as a leader of the open source community, which 800 01:13:14,700 --> 01:13:18,940 is on shared resources. So you mentioned that a lot of times you're putting your 801 01:13:18,940 --> 01:13:23,500 resources out there and they're out there for other people to share and learn from. 802 01:13:23,500 --> 01:13:28,460 I'd be interested and a little bit of closing round of either recommendations, 803 01:13:28,460 --> 01:13:32,770 reading recommendations, places to go look for further information, maybe places 804 01:13:32,770 --> 01:13:36,480 where you can be publishing your research. But although the question of connecting 805 01:13:36,480 --> 01:13:40,060 like how do we strengthen each other's work. Not just by coming together at 806 01:13:40,060 --> 01:13:44,580 conferences like this but by making our knowledge open and sharing it and perhaps 807 01:13:44,580 --> 01:13:48,980 also exchanging experiences with one another. So if maybe you want to leave 808 01:13:48,980 --> 01:13:53,630 with an idea or a recommendation, or a point of inspiration, or question on that 809 01:13:53,630 --> 01:13:56,900 issue. Let's do a quick round. You want to start? 810 01:13:56,900 --> 01:14:02,190 Em: So we're quite lucky in the UK that we have the UK Hackspace Foundation which is 811 01:14:02,190 --> 01:14:07,460 a kind of Umbrella group for the [not understandable] hackerspaces in the UK and 812 01:14:07,460 --> 01:14:12,500 these kind of organisations can be great for raising discussions about these 813 01:14:12,500 --> 01:14:17,920 topics. I'm really pushing to have more of focus on inclusivity and diversity in the 814 01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:21,270 UK Hackspace Foundation at the moment and that can be a way of kind of funnelling 815 01:14:21,270 --> 01:14:25,040 best practices out through all of the member organizations. 816 01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:29,900 GdB: Thank you. Lena: I think for us it's we really focus 817 01:14:29,900 --> 01:14:35,330 on, like you mentioned as well, the personal connection. So yeah we would of 818 01:14:35,330 --> 01:14:38,250 course prefer that you visit us for coctails and code, and I think there are a 819 01:14:38,250 --> 01:14:46,001 lot of almost.. I think in the bigger cities you will find of feminist or women 820 01:14:46,001 --> 01:14:51,100 only or women and non binary people only spaces. And if there is none, maybe then 821 01:14:51,100 --> 01:14:55,420 you should found one. Because I think it's really important and I think it happens a 822 01:14:55,420 --> 01:14:59,030 lot through personal connections. GdB: Thank you, Lena. 823 01:14:59,030 --> 01:15:03,080 Hong Phuc Dang: Yeah. So it is something you all are welcome at our open source 824 01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:08,580 hotel in Vietnam now if you ever want to visit and welcome at any FOSS Asia events. 825 01:15:08,580 --> 01:15:16,150 At the same time I think that we could share our best practices and the 826 01:15:16,150 --> 01:15:20,270 successful story on our website. So whatever the FOSS Asia developed and what 827 01:15:20,270 --> 01:15:23,980 we do we publish everything. I think that is a good way to share resources with 828 01:15:23,980 --> 01:15:29,260 other communities. And a panel discussion is always good to learn and to continue 829 01:15:29,260 --> 01:15:32,190 the conversation. GdB: It's definitely good moment with you 830 01:15:32,190 --> 01:15:35,190 guys. Sarah. Le Reset speaker (right): There is only 831 01:15:35,190 --> 01:15:39,170 one thing to do is to go to our Wiki. We have all the resources that you need, in 832 01:15:39,170 --> 01:15:41,170 French. *laughing* 833 01:15:41,170 --> 01:15:50,490 Hong Phug Dang: Our website is in English *laughing**applause* 834 01:15:50,490 --> 01:15:55,540 Le Reset speaker (right): So yeah, we will try. As after this conference and this as 835 01:15:55,540 --> 01:16:00,020 I say we will try to put the video on our Wiki with a page with all the references 836 01:16:00,020 --> 01:16:04,450 as we do usually in French and so we will do it in English this time. So you should 837 01:16:04,450 --> 01:16:11,400 find it in a few days on our Wiki which is Wiki.LeReset.org. 838 01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:15,750 GdB: Excellent. *applause* 839 01:16:15,750 --> 01:16:20,210 GdB: I would like to thank you all for hanging in such great ideas for this event 840 01:16:20,210 --> 01:16:24,740 for sitting on this panel and sharing your thoughts and experiences. Thank you Azam. 841 01:16:24,740 --> 01:16:28,789 Thank you Sarah. Thank you Hong. Thank you Lena. Thank you Em. For being part of the 842 01:16:28,789 --> 01:16:33,360 session. Thank you all for attending and your inputs and ideas as well. And let's 843 01:16:33,360 --> 01:16:36,120 say a big thank you to the stage host and the translators for doing a wonderful job 844 01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:37,660 as well. 845 01:16:37,660 --> 01:16:40,913 *applause* 846 01:16:40,913 --> 01:16:42,920 *35c3 postroll music* 847 01:16:42,920 --> 01:17:05,000 Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de in the year 2020. 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