0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Dear viewer, these subtitles were generated by a machine via the service Trint and therefore are (very) buggy. If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/526 Thanks! 1 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,789 Equador, how an authoritarian government 2 00:00:11,790 --> 00:00:14,279 is fooling the entire world. 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:16,799 We have two speakers, Pedro Noel, 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,769 who is a coeditor at the Associated 5 00:00:19,770 --> 00:00:22,349 Whistleblowing Press, and Bethany Horn, 6 00:00:22,350 --> 00:00:25,079 who is an activist and a writer. 7 00:00:25,080 --> 00:00:27,539 So the question is, is Ecuador 8 00:00:27,540 --> 00:00:30,269 really interested in free speech? 9 00:00:30,270 --> 00:00:32,249 They don't think so, and they will let 10 00:00:32,250 --> 00:00:34,349 you know why. So please welcome with me 11 00:00:34,350 --> 00:00:36,719 on stage Daphne Horne and Pedro Noel. 12 00:00:44,420 --> 00:00:46,609 So how good night, thanks 13 00:00:46,610 --> 00:00:48,859 for, uh, for the CCC, for bringing 14 00:00:48,860 --> 00:00:51,109 us here, accepting our talk and 15 00:00:51,110 --> 00:00:52,549 supporting us being here. 16 00:00:52,550 --> 00:00:54,319 And Pedro Neul, I'm a Brazilian 17 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,079 journalist. I've been since 2010. 18 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,569 Working with leaks means, 19 00:00:59,570 --> 00:01:02,059 uh, restricted materials of public 20 00:01:02,060 --> 00:01:04,219 relevance, uh, both publishing 21 00:01:04,220 --> 00:01:06,289 leaks and analyzing. 22 00:01:06,290 --> 00:01:08,829 Currently, I work as a coeditor 23 00:01:08,830 --> 00:01:11,269 at the Associated Whistleblowing Press, 24 00:01:11,270 --> 00:01:13,459 which is an NGO, 25 00:01:13,460 --> 00:01:15,979 uh, working and implementing running 26 00:01:15,980 --> 00:01:18,499 and operating whistleblowing platforms, 27 00:01:18,500 --> 00:01:20,629 always in a local way, among 28 00:01:20,630 --> 00:01:21,529 other platforms. 29 00:01:21,530 --> 00:01:24,259 We run in Iceland, in Spain, 30 00:01:24,260 --> 00:01:26,359 in sonand in Peru. 31 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,489 I hope, uh, we 32 00:01:28,490 --> 00:01:30,649 also have a platform in Ecuador, 33 00:01:30,650 --> 00:01:32,969 which is called Ecuador Transparent. 34 00:01:32,970 --> 00:01:34,849 I'll talk more about this platform later 35 00:01:34,850 --> 00:01:37,699 on. So now let Button introduce 36 00:01:37,700 --> 00:01:39,109 herself. 37 00:01:39,110 --> 00:01:40,699 Uh, so I'm Bethany Horn. 38 00:01:40,700 --> 00:01:43,370 I grew up in Ecuador, 39 00:01:44,390 --> 00:01:46,729 but I started working as a journalist in 40 00:01:46,730 --> 00:01:47,730 Canada. 41 00:01:48,860 --> 00:01:50,929 I then moved back to Ecuador 42 00:01:50,930 --> 00:01:53,119 and worked at the state newspaper 43 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:54,330 there for 44 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,369 for a little bit, very short, little 45 00:01:58,370 --> 00:02:00,709 bit, and then I went to work 46 00:02:00,710 --> 00:02:02,779 for a academic research 47 00:02:02,780 --> 00:02:05,119 group at a university. 48 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:06,769 The academic research group was run by 49 00:02:06,770 --> 00:02:10,219 hackers, and we were researching 50 00:02:10,220 --> 00:02:12,529 copyright and other policy issues 51 00:02:12,530 --> 00:02:14,089 to advise the Ecuadorian government. 52 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:18,619 The first thing that I want to say and 53 00:02:18,620 --> 00:02:20,839 that I need to say 54 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,179 is that I recognize 55 00:02:23,180 --> 00:02:26,119 that Ecuador has to 56 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,249 has to be praised and thanked 57 00:02:28,250 --> 00:02:30,769 for the very brave act 58 00:02:30,770 --> 00:02:33,079 of giving asylum to Julian 59 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:34,309 Assange. 60 00:02:34,310 --> 00:02:36,649 I'm glad that my adopted country 61 00:02:36,650 --> 00:02:38,839 has taken on this role in the world 62 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,179 and stands up to the United States 63 00:02:41,180 --> 00:02:42,620 on this one issue. 64 00:02:43,820 --> 00:02:46,399 Defending WikiLeaks is right to publish 65 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,619 and exist is a human rights 66 00:02:48,620 --> 00:02:49,620 issue. 67 00:02:51,830 --> 00:02:54,139 I think that Julian Assange is in danger 68 00:02:54,140 --> 00:02:55,140 of extradition. 69 00:02:56,130 --> 00:02:58,409 And the Ecuadorian embassy in London 70 00:02:58,410 --> 00:03:00,110 is the only thing keeping him safe, 71 00:03:01,290 --> 00:03:03,419 but it would be a mistake to assume that 72 00:03:03,420 --> 00:03:05,819 this portion of Ecuador's foreign policy 73 00:03:05,820 --> 00:03:09,059 has any effect on their domestic policy. 74 00:03:09,060 --> 00:03:10,109 It doesn't. 75 00:03:10,110 --> 00:03:12,479 Governments are made up of people. 76 00:03:14,010 --> 00:03:15,959 And inside the Ecuadorian government, 77 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,719 like inside many governments, there 78 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:20,490 is a war between factions, 79 00:03:22,530 --> 00:03:23,669 some good, some bad. 80 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:26,959 This is a government that has been in 81 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:28,519 power for eight years now, and they 82 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,439 intend to stay in power for many more. 83 00:03:31,910 --> 00:03:34,159 President Rafael Correa 84 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,519 and the political party that he started 85 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,709 are concerned with power. 86 00:03:39,710 --> 00:03:41,089 They'll change the rules that they 87 00:03:41,090 --> 00:03:43,279 themselves created in order to 88 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:44,319 keep power. 89 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:45,680 An example of this. 90 00:03:47,610 --> 00:03:49,529 Is a recent. 91 00:03:49,530 --> 00:03:52,079 Well, this has been going on for a while, 92 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,209 but in 2008, they wrote 93 00:03:54,210 --> 00:03:56,550 a new constitution that said. 94 00:03:57,690 --> 00:03:59,129 Limits term limits. 95 00:04:00,810 --> 00:04:02,849 Recently, they've grown so worried about 96 00:04:02,850 --> 00:04:04,769 whether they can win another election 97 00:04:04,770 --> 00:04:07,049 without Rafael Correa that 98 00:04:07,050 --> 00:04:09,419 there was two years of discussion 99 00:04:09,420 --> 00:04:12,119 about changing the Constitution so that 100 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,309 they could reelect Rafael Correa for 101 00:04:14,310 --> 00:04:16,229 a third or maybe fourth term 102 00:04:16,230 --> 00:04:17,230 indefinitely. 103 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:19,379 They didn't end up doing that. 104 00:04:19,380 --> 00:04:21,569 They did change the Constitution. 105 00:04:22,580 --> 00:04:24,419 But Rafael Correa decided he didn't want 106 00:04:24,420 --> 00:04:26,549 to run anyway, so they didn't change it 107 00:04:26,550 --> 00:04:27,839 to make it friendly to him. 108 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:32,909 But this is just an example that I wanted 109 00:04:32,910 --> 00:04:33,910 to give of 110 00:04:35,250 --> 00:04:37,259 of one of the tactics that the Ecuadorian 111 00:04:37,260 --> 00:04:39,599 government has for maintaining 112 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,029 control, and that is 113 00:04:42,030 --> 00:04:43,030 the laws. 114 00:04:49,610 --> 00:04:52,129 And I want to talk about some of the laws 115 00:04:52,130 --> 00:04:54,079 that they've brought in that deal with 116 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,389 communications especially, and how this 117 00:04:56,390 --> 00:04:59,089 affects democratic freedoms, journalism 118 00:04:59,090 --> 00:05:00,499 and free speech. 119 00:05:00,500 --> 00:05:02,749 But there's a second more worrying way 120 00:05:02,750 --> 00:05:05,029 that the current government in Ecuador is 121 00:05:05,030 --> 00:05:07,129 exercising control, and that's through 122 00:05:07,130 --> 00:05:08,130 illegal means. 123 00:05:10,190 --> 00:05:12,319 Pedro has published documents via 124 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,019 his whistleblowing platform that 125 00:05:15,020 --> 00:05:16,699 illustrate this, and he'll talk about 126 00:05:16,700 --> 00:05:17,700 them. 127 00:05:18,420 --> 00:05:20,869 Ecuador's constitution protects citizens' 128 00:05:20,870 --> 00:05:22,429 right to intimacy. 129 00:05:22,430 --> 00:05:24,499 So we consider certain 130 00:05:24,500 --> 00:05:26,659 kinds like the spying that is 131 00:05:26,660 --> 00:05:28,999 revealed in the documents 132 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:30,000 to be illegal. 133 00:05:31,050 --> 00:05:32,939 There are other illegal tactics popping 134 00:05:32,940 --> 00:05:35,249 up in Ecuador, stuff like 135 00:05:35,250 --> 00:05:36,870 threats of violence, censorship. 136 00:05:39,330 --> 00:05:41,189 Not all of it can be linked directly to 137 00:05:41,190 --> 00:05:42,749 the government, but we'll talk about it 138 00:05:42,750 --> 00:05:43,750 to. 139 00:05:44,780 --> 00:05:46,669 Ecuador's intelligence services are 140 00:05:46,670 --> 00:05:48,349 heavily implicated, especially in the 141 00:05:48,350 --> 00:05:50,689 illegal stuff that we see going on, 142 00:05:50,690 --> 00:05:52,369 the intelligence agency in Ecuador is 143 00:05:52,370 --> 00:05:54,319 called the sending the secretary of 144 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:55,699 National Intelligence. 145 00:05:55,700 --> 00:05:58,549 It also has another 146 00:05:58,550 --> 00:05:59,660 short form seen. 147 00:06:00,870 --> 00:06:03,959 And it's it's Ecuador's biggest problem, 148 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,029 but the government's 149 00:06:06,030 --> 00:06:08,219 other institutions, the presidency, 150 00:06:08,220 --> 00:06:10,409 the National Assembly and 151 00:06:10,410 --> 00:06:13,559 the super powerful Communications 152 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,499 Secretariat, they all benefit from 153 00:06:16,500 --> 00:06:19,439 the intelligence that's gathered by 154 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:20,440 by the Senate. 155 00:06:21,630 --> 00:06:23,489 They're benefiting, benefiting from it, 156 00:06:23,490 --> 00:06:25,020 and they're not challenging it. 157 00:06:26,310 --> 00:06:28,619 So laws need to change in Ecuador, but 158 00:06:28,620 --> 00:06:30,839 also its institutions need to be made 159 00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:32,189 to follow the law. 160 00:06:32,190 --> 00:06:34,349 International pressure helps, which is 161 00:06:34,350 --> 00:06:35,399 why we are here. 162 00:06:38,100 --> 00:06:40,289 So after at 163 00:06:40,290 --> 00:06:41,879 the end of our talk, we'll deliver a 164 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,429 message to Korea because 165 00:06:44,430 --> 00:06:46,649 we know that he listens and 166 00:06:46,650 --> 00:06:49,919 we know that he listens because, 167 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,219 well, I found my picture in the Senate 168 00:06:52,220 --> 00:06:54,329 leaks, so I know 169 00:06:54,330 --> 00:06:56,399 I have a certain amount 170 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:57,400 of. 171 00:06:57,900 --> 00:06:58,900 Caché, 172 00:07:00,090 --> 00:07:02,100 we know he listens because he responds, 173 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:04,240 he 174 00:07:05,460 --> 00:07:07,619 he's very vocal, he 175 00:07:07,620 --> 00:07:09,179 does his own Twitter feed. 176 00:07:09,180 --> 00:07:10,949 Last time I wrote about Ecuador, he 177 00:07:10,950 --> 00:07:13,799 responded to me on national television 178 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,220 for 14 minutes, which was fun. 179 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:20,850 His his account will get there. 180 00:07:23,580 --> 00:07:25,649 I want to I want to first give, like, 181 00:07:25,650 --> 00:07:27,209 a picture. 182 00:07:27,210 --> 00:07:29,369 The key to understanding him is, 183 00:07:29,370 --> 00:07:31,559 is understanding that he craves 184 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:32,849 control. 185 00:07:32,850 --> 00:07:34,919 We had a video that we were going 186 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:36,779 to play now, but it didn't work. 187 00:07:36,780 --> 00:07:37,780 I. 188 00:07:38,410 --> 00:07:40,509 Believe that I linked to it on 189 00:07:40,510 --> 00:07:42,939 my blog, Bellhorn horn dot com, 190 00:07:42,940 --> 00:07:45,129 if you want to see the video later, I 191 00:07:45,130 --> 00:07:46,360 will I will put it up there. 192 00:07:48,850 --> 00:07:49,989 He creates control. 193 00:07:49,990 --> 00:07:52,269 He had such high approval ratings for 194 00:07:52,270 --> 00:07:54,159 a really long time because to a certain 195 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,379 degree, Ecuadoreans agreed 196 00:07:56,380 --> 00:07:58,149 that keeping stuff under control was 197 00:07:58,150 --> 00:07:59,199 important. 198 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,269 To understand why control is the key 199 00:08:01,270 --> 00:08:03,849 word, I want to give a brief outline 200 00:08:03,850 --> 00:08:06,129 of the ten years in Ecuador before 201 00:08:06,130 --> 00:08:08,049 Correa came to power. 202 00:08:08,050 --> 00:08:09,050 So. 203 00:08:11,710 --> 00:08:13,839 The first character 204 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:15,459 in this story, oops. 205 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,139 Is this guy he was elected 206 00:08:21,140 --> 00:08:23,539 in 1996, his name is Abdala Bucaram, 207 00:08:23,540 --> 00:08:25,039 he was elected despite the Hitler 208 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:26,040 mustache. 209 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:29,040 He was a. 210 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:31,089 Populist. 211 00:08:32,350 --> 00:08:34,149 Kind of unpredictable. 212 00:08:34,150 --> 00:08:36,249 His nickname was a local 213 00:08:36,250 --> 00:08:39,339 the crazy guy, and he really 214 00:08:39,340 --> 00:08:40,989 was insane. 215 00:08:40,990 --> 00:08:43,269 He would go on TV and sing songs 216 00:08:46,210 --> 00:08:49,149 and he embezzled a whole lot of money. 217 00:08:49,150 --> 00:08:51,699 Congress declared him mentally unfit 218 00:08:51,700 --> 00:08:54,309 to serve as president. 219 00:08:54,310 --> 00:08:55,929 There was a Congress made up of his 220 00:08:55,930 --> 00:08:57,369 political enemies. 221 00:08:57,370 --> 00:08:59,109 They had to go against the Constitution 222 00:08:59,110 --> 00:09:01,299 in order to do this, in order to 223 00:09:01,300 --> 00:09:03,019 name his replacement. 224 00:09:03,020 --> 00:09:05,229 But he was he 225 00:09:05,230 --> 00:09:07,479 was kicked out of office after 226 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,609 two million Ecuadorians took to the 227 00:09:09,610 --> 00:09:11,709 streets for weeks and 228 00:09:11,710 --> 00:09:13,390 shut down the country, basically. 229 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,159 So this is the first of three 230 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,229 soft coups in the 10 years 231 00:09:20,230 --> 00:09:21,490 that came before Korea. 232 00:09:23,230 --> 00:09:25,179 His presidency was very short, it ended 233 00:09:25,180 --> 00:09:26,230 in 1997. 234 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,209 Congress appointed an interim leader 235 00:09:30,210 --> 00:09:32,759 and then the next guy that's elected 236 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,009 is what he's sort 237 00:09:35,010 --> 00:09:37,139 of the opposite of Abdulahi, who's very 238 00:09:37,140 --> 00:09:38,730 smart and. 239 00:09:39,970 --> 00:09:41,679 He was a known political actor. 240 00:09:41,680 --> 00:09:44,439 He'd been the mayor of the capital city. 241 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:45,460 He was right wing 242 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:48,680 and 243 00:09:49,780 --> 00:09:51,729 governed pretty predictably. 244 00:09:51,730 --> 00:09:53,859 He during his presidency, Ecuador 245 00:09:53,860 --> 00:09:56,649 was hit with the worst financial 246 00:09:56,650 --> 00:09:59,049 crisis in generations, 247 00:09:59,050 --> 00:10:01,209 70 percent of the banks in the country 248 00:10:01,210 --> 00:10:02,210 closed. 249 00:10:04,570 --> 00:10:06,820 Thousands of families lost their savings. 250 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,309 Families were split up because people had 251 00:10:10,310 --> 00:10:12,529 to migrate to Italy 252 00:10:12,530 --> 00:10:14,129 and Spain and the U.S. 253 00:10:14,130 --> 00:10:15,200 in order to find work. 254 00:10:17,900 --> 00:10:20,149 He doloris the economy because inflation 255 00:10:20,150 --> 00:10:22,189 got so bad that Ecuador lost its currency 256 00:10:22,190 --> 00:10:24,439 during his presidency. 257 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,569 And again, people took to 258 00:10:26,570 --> 00:10:28,669 the streets, shut down Quito, shut 259 00:10:28,670 --> 00:10:31,249 down the highways, protested. 260 00:10:32,870 --> 00:10:34,999 And an army general refused 261 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:36,799 to stop the protesters from taking over 262 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:37,789 the presidential palace. 263 00:10:37,790 --> 00:10:39,889 And again, he had to 264 00:10:39,890 --> 00:10:40,939 leave. 265 00:10:40,940 --> 00:10:43,249 His vice president took over, finished 266 00:10:43,250 --> 00:10:45,019 or finished up his presidency. 267 00:10:45,020 --> 00:10:47,299 This is the second soft coup. 268 00:10:48,530 --> 00:10:50,419 And this was in. 269 00:10:50,420 --> 00:10:51,420 When was it? 270 00:10:52,390 --> 00:10:53,799 Um, 2000. 271 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,329 One, yeah, 272 00:10:58,330 --> 00:10:59,669 uh, anyway. 273 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,829 So next is this guy, 274 00:11:03,830 --> 00:11:05,359 he was actually the army general who 275 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,879 didn't stop the protests 276 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,699 from taking over the presidential palace. 277 00:11:10,700 --> 00:11:13,129 This is Lucio Gutierrez. 278 00:11:13,130 --> 00:11:15,379 He's another populist who 279 00:11:15,380 --> 00:11:17,749 was close to 280 00:11:17,750 --> 00:11:19,849 left and indigenous movements at 281 00:11:19,850 --> 00:11:21,739 the beginning when he ran similar to 282 00:11:21,740 --> 00:11:22,939 Abdullah. 283 00:11:22,940 --> 00:11:25,099 But he quickly lost that 284 00:11:25,100 --> 00:11:27,379 support because he governed 285 00:11:27,380 --> 00:11:28,380 like a neoliberal. 286 00:11:31,870 --> 00:11:33,669 And by this point, people just knew, 287 00:11:33,670 --> 00:11:36,099 like, OK, we can get rid of him, so they 288 00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:38,469 took to the streets, protested, 289 00:11:38,470 --> 00:11:40,749 and he was gone. 290 00:11:41,890 --> 00:11:42,890 Uh. 291 00:11:44,180 --> 00:11:46,309 So by the end of this, I 292 00:11:46,310 --> 00:11:47,989 mean, Ecuador has a young democracy, they 293 00:11:47,990 --> 00:11:50,119 had a military dictatorship for 294 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:51,379 a while. 295 00:11:51,380 --> 00:11:52,400 By the end of this, 296 00:11:53,780 --> 00:11:56,689 people were pretty demoralized about 297 00:11:56,690 --> 00:11:58,129 it was bad for business. 298 00:11:58,130 --> 00:12:00,779 All the coups were bad for business. 299 00:12:00,780 --> 00:12:03,169 Oops, I skipped a slide. 300 00:12:04,740 --> 00:12:08,189 And and 301 00:12:08,190 --> 00:12:10,379 people were ready for something else, so 302 00:12:10,380 --> 00:12:13,259 2006, Rafael Correa 303 00:12:13,260 --> 00:12:15,599 runs a campaign with a totally 304 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:16,600 new party. 305 00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:20,279 He promises that he's going to disband 306 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,589 Congress and. 307 00:12:23,590 --> 00:12:25,809 Call new elections to 308 00:12:25,810 --> 00:12:27,879 rewrite the constitution after he 309 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:29,740 wins and he wins. 310 00:12:32,930 --> 00:12:35,359 He got a lot of support by promising 311 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:36,360 to be different. 312 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:40,469 And he started out really well and a lot 313 00:12:40,470 --> 00:12:42,809 of us, myself included, were excited 314 00:12:42,810 --> 00:12:44,609 by his first year in office and we liked 315 00:12:44,610 --> 00:12:47,279 his we liked his constitution. 316 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,039 But in 2010, he lost control. 317 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,109 And as you remember, 318 00:12:52,110 --> 00:12:54,689 control is very important to him. 319 00:12:54,690 --> 00:12:57,029 There was a protest by the police 320 00:12:57,030 --> 00:12:59,249 union that shut down 321 00:12:59,250 --> 00:13:00,569 streets and people were getting 322 00:13:00,570 --> 00:13:01,859 flashbacks to 323 00:13:03,630 --> 00:13:06,149 to 1997, 2001 and 324 00:13:06,150 --> 00:13:07,500 and 2003. 325 00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:12,349 The police cornered him, he 326 00:13:12,350 --> 00:13:14,329 needed the military to rescue him from a 327 00:13:14,330 --> 00:13:16,609 hospital, there was a shootout, people 328 00:13:16,610 --> 00:13:19,129 died. He calls it a coup attempt. 329 00:13:19,130 --> 00:13:21,199 And I don't call it a coup 330 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,569 attempt. I think it's debatable. 331 00:13:23,570 --> 00:13:25,699 And that's a debate we can 332 00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:27,589 talk about another time. 333 00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:29,779 But what was true is that it really 334 00:13:29,780 --> 00:13:30,949 scared him. 335 00:13:30,950 --> 00:13:32,870 And after 2010, 336 00:13:34,550 --> 00:13:36,649 the need for control started to clash 337 00:13:36,650 --> 00:13:39,619 with his original promise of democracy. 338 00:13:39,620 --> 00:13:41,359 And it's this clash with democracy that 339 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,519 is my problem and our problem as 340 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,079 people interested in universal human 341 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:46,219 rights. 342 00:13:46,220 --> 00:13:47,809 So I want to talk about the laws, the 343 00:13:47,810 --> 00:13:49,189 legal stuff that's been going on in 344 00:13:49,190 --> 00:13:51,289 Ecuador, that threatening speech and 345 00:13:51,290 --> 00:13:53,809 publishing and 346 00:13:53,810 --> 00:13:55,039 dissent. 347 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,589 So the first one was the Constitution 348 00:13:57,590 --> 00:13:58,640 of 2008, 349 00:13:59,900 --> 00:14:01,759 which, as I said, had a lot of 350 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,829 progressive and good 351 00:14:03,830 --> 00:14:04,909 innovations in it. 352 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,139 It affected the media because it 353 00:14:09,140 --> 00:14:11,269 it legislated 354 00:14:11,270 --> 00:14:12,650 the separation between. 355 00:14:15,110 --> 00:14:17,539 People owning media and other businesses, 356 00:14:17,540 --> 00:14:19,639 so a lot of bankers got their 357 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:21,709 newspapers and TV stations 358 00:14:21,710 --> 00:14:24,019 expropriated by the government, 359 00:14:24,020 --> 00:14:25,819 which people supported, they didn't want 360 00:14:25,820 --> 00:14:28,069 bankers having that much power 361 00:14:28,070 --> 00:14:29,070 over the media. 362 00:14:30,290 --> 00:14:32,209 But it led to concentration of a 363 00:14:32,210 --> 00:14:35,029 different sort, the state 364 00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:37,999 never sold those media outlets 365 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,909 and the state went from owning nine 366 00:14:40,910 --> 00:14:44,149 public media outlets to owning 42. 367 00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:45,829 And this concentration trend is 368 00:14:45,830 --> 00:14:46,830 continuing 369 00:14:48,290 --> 00:14:49,290 its papers. 370 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,679 Fold and get one 371 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,779 just recently got bought by the 372 00:14:54,780 --> 00:14:57,149 state newspaper and another 373 00:14:57,150 --> 00:14:59,339 one closed last year, the second law 374 00:14:59,340 --> 00:15:01,439 is the communications law in 375 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:02,440 2013, 376 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:05,039 which was really 377 00:15:06,270 --> 00:15:08,699 which was sort of a wish of 378 00:15:08,700 --> 00:15:10,559 Korea to bring in earlier. 379 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,119 But he didn't have support in the 380 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,149 assembly and 381 00:15:15,150 --> 00:15:16,150 in it. 382 00:15:17,270 --> 00:15:19,639 There it creates the crime 383 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,219 of media lynching, which it describes 384 00:15:22,220 --> 00:15:24,619 as a Kornet coordinated dissemination 385 00:15:24,620 --> 00:15:26,689 of information, which sounds 386 00:15:26,690 --> 00:15:27,890 a lot like journalism 387 00:15:29,510 --> 00:15:31,219 with the purpose of discrediting or 388 00:15:31,220 --> 00:15:33,349 harming the reputation of a natural or 389 00:15:33,350 --> 00:15:34,369 legal person. 390 00:15:34,370 --> 00:15:36,169 It doesn't say if that information is 391 00:15:36,170 --> 00:15:39,259 false, if it harms the reputation 392 00:15:39,260 --> 00:15:40,939 of a natural legal person and it's a 393 00:15:40,940 --> 00:15:42,979 coordinated publication, then 394 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,069 you could be in trouble. 395 00:15:46,070 --> 00:15:47,839 This law also makes media outlets 396 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,819 responsible for online comments. 397 00:15:49,820 --> 00:15:51,589 A lot of newspapers shut down their 398 00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:53,929 comment sections after it, and it creates 399 00:15:53,930 --> 00:15:56,269 regulatory agencies to enforce 400 00:15:56,270 --> 00:15:57,829 the murky law. 401 00:15:57,830 --> 00:15:59,440 The biggest one is the super com. 402 00:16:00,780 --> 00:16:02,939 Which forces 403 00:16:02,940 --> 00:16:05,159 corrections and I want to show. 404 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,969 So this is a cartoon 405 00:16:09,970 --> 00:16:12,069 of a police raid on a 406 00:16:12,070 --> 00:16:14,649 journalist's house two years ago. 407 00:16:14,650 --> 00:16:16,779 It was done by a guy who 408 00:16:16,780 --> 00:16:18,429 is one of the country's biggest 409 00:16:18,430 --> 00:16:20,169 cartoonists. The government didn't like 410 00:16:20,170 --> 00:16:22,389 it. They said that he had to issue 411 00:16:22,390 --> 00:16:24,490 a correction on his cartoon 412 00:16:25,540 --> 00:16:27,519 because it showed the police being too 413 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:28,589 violent, I guess. 414 00:16:29,650 --> 00:16:31,479 So he drew a correction, which shows the 415 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,699 police knocking very politely 416 00:16:33,700 --> 00:16:36,369 and asking 417 00:16:36,370 --> 00:16:38,649 kindly to take the journalist's 418 00:16:38,650 --> 00:16:41,529 computer with them and 419 00:16:43,510 --> 00:16:45,579 will keep it in a closed 420 00:16:45,580 --> 00:16:48,969 envelope to preserve chain of custody 421 00:16:48,970 --> 00:16:51,129 and have a happy 422 00:16:51,130 --> 00:16:52,389 Christmas. 423 00:16:52,390 --> 00:16:53,390 So 424 00:16:54,490 --> 00:16:56,019 cartoonists have a little bit of fun with 425 00:16:56,020 --> 00:16:56,439 it. 426 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:58,599 This is another one that I 427 00:16:58,600 --> 00:16:59,600 like. 428 00:17:02,250 --> 00:17:04,318 They asked this magazine 429 00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:06,419 to issue a correction of its front page 430 00:17:06,420 --> 00:17:08,608 image because they thought that 431 00:17:08,609 --> 00:17:11,189 the wrecking ball destroying 432 00:17:11,190 --> 00:17:13,649 the logo of the social service 433 00:17:13,650 --> 00:17:16,108 agency was not accurate 434 00:17:16,109 --> 00:17:17,640 and they just. 435 00:17:19,329 --> 00:17:21,549 That was their correction, so 436 00:17:21,550 --> 00:17:23,740 it's a little it's a little boring, 437 00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:27,519 there's a lot of fines that come along 438 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:29,199 with this communication law. 439 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,209 They've now issued two hundred thousand 440 00:17:31,210 --> 00:17:33,009 dollars in fines, at least in the past 441 00:17:33,010 --> 00:17:35,469 two years, to journalists 442 00:17:35,470 --> 00:17:37,539 and self-censorship because journalists 443 00:17:37,540 --> 00:17:38,469 don't want to get fined. 444 00:17:38,470 --> 00:17:40,809 So there's that kind of way. 445 00:17:40,810 --> 00:17:43,119 How much they can say and not go against 446 00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:44,120 the communications are. 447 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,209 And the third law is just within 448 00:17:56,210 --> 00:17:57,649 the past month, they changed the 449 00:17:57,650 --> 00:17:59,749 Constitution, as I said, and 450 00:17:59,750 --> 00:18:01,879 they made communication, public 451 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,739 service, and nobody really knows what 452 00:18:03,740 --> 00:18:05,089 they mean by this, 453 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:08,719 whether it means that communication 454 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,519 passes to be a responsibility of the 455 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:12,919 state like water 456 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:14,179 and electricity. 457 00:18:14,180 --> 00:18:16,459 But this is what journalists are afraid 458 00:18:16,460 --> 00:18:18,379 of and they don't really see the trend 459 00:18:18,380 --> 00:18:20,089 going in a good way. 460 00:18:20,090 --> 00:18:22,399 So they were opposed 461 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:23,929 to this. 462 00:18:23,930 --> 00:18:25,909 To this, there are other difficulties 463 00:18:25,910 --> 00:18:27,229 doing journalism in Ecuador, I 464 00:18:27,230 --> 00:18:28,520 experienced some 465 00:18:30,860 --> 00:18:33,389 and others have experienced others, 466 00:18:33,390 --> 00:18:34,670 you can ask me about it later. 467 00:18:39,130 --> 00:18:41,229 And then so 468 00:18:41,230 --> 00:18:43,389 the legal framework for control 469 00:18:43,390 --> 00:18:45,699 that that 470 00:18:45,700 --> 00:18:48,249 that goes hand in hand with this 471 00:18:48,250 --> 00:18:49,250 legal one. 472 00:18:51,530 --> 00:18:53,659 Ecuador sort of was a star of the 473 00:18:53,660 --> 00:18:54,660 hacking team. 474 00:18:55,550 --> 00:18:57,799 Info dump, there was a lot 475 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,989 of evidence in the 476 00:18:59,990 --> 00:19:02,359 documents released by WikiLeaks, 477 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,529 published by WikiLeaks, released by some 478 00:19:06,530 --> 00:19:07,530 friendly hacker 479 00:19:09,410 --> 00:19:12,139 that Ecuador is a client of hacking team. 480 00:19:12,140 --> 00:19:14,299 This was the receipt, 481 00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:15,300 I believe. 482 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,709 With a with the contractor Thiola 483 00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:21,710 in Belize. 484 00:19:24,860 --> 00:19:25,910 Based on Malaysia. 485 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,169 So the government denied 486 00:19:31,170 --> 00:19:32,549 after this information came out, they 487 00:19:32,550 --> 00:19:34,049 denied that they had any relationship 488 00:19:34,050 --> 00:19:35,249 with hacking team. Of course, they don't 489 00:19:35,250 --> 00:19:36,749 have a contractual relationship with 490 00:19:36,750 --> 00:19:38,189 hacking team. They have a contractual 491 00:19:38,190 --> 00:19:40,410 relationship with the intermediaries. 492 00:19:41,490 --> 00:19:44,159 And I'm going to 493 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,499 talk about what 494 00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:48,839 his documents show about the about 495 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:49,840 sending. 496 00:19:54,070 --> 00:19:56,349 Can you hear me? Yeah, yeah, 497 00:19:56,350 --> 00:19:57,350 OK, yeah. 498 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,379 So, um, I was just make a very 499 00:20:00,380 --> 00:20:02,809 practical example, uh, regarding 500 00:20:02,810 --> 00:20:05,629 to two publications, my organization did 501 00:20:05,630 --> 00:20:07,519 related to illegal surveillance in 502 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,619 Ecuador and the platform 503 00:20:09,620 --> 00:20:11,929 who did that was Ecuador Transparent, 504 00:20:11,930 --> 00:20:14,479 which is, uh, a local 505 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,919 platform, uh, for whistleblowing 506 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,250 use, uh, free software, uh, globally. 507 00:20:20,450 --> 00:20:23,119 And, um, yeah. 508 00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:24,169 First publication. 509 00:20:24,170 --> 00:20:27,109 It's from August, uh, 510 00:20:27,110 --> 00:20:29,299 it's published 31 pieces 511 00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:31,369 of the Ecuador intelligence, 512 00:20:31,370 --> 00:20:32,989 which were stating that they. 513 00:20:34,180 --> 00:20:37,239 Constantly surveyed 514 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:38,240 journalists. 515 00:20:39,390 --> 00:20:40,579 Um. 516 00:20:41,820 --> 00:20:45,239 Human rights actors, ecology, 517 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,699 ecological groups and politicians, 518 00:20:47,700 --> 00:20:50,159 right? They did it in two ways. 519 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,289 First. Uh, they did in 520 00:20:52,290 --> 00:20:54,239 a physical way. In a digital way. 521 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,309 This, for example, is a 522 00:20:56,310 --> 00:20:59,229 collection of 523 00:20:59,230 --> 00:21:01,349 of records like any records 524 00:21:01,350 --> 00:21:02,759 of the government. It's not public 525 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,019 information, but it's information that 526 00:21:04,020 --> 00:21:05,909 the government can get. 527 00:21:05,910 --> 00:21:08,039 So they were building profiles over 528 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:09,839 people. So this profile, for example, is 529 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,239 a profile of the cartoonist that Bethany 530 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,279 just mentioned it that were in the 531 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,379 cartoon sorry, the journalist in 532 00:21:16,380 --> 00:21:17,579 the cartoon. Exactly. 533 00:21:17,580 --> 00:21:19,289 The trellising in the cartoon. 534 00:21:19,290 --> 00:21:20,459 Ah, no, it is the cartoonist. 535 00:21:20,460 --> 00:21:22,069 Yeah, it's the cartoonist. But, you know, 536 00:21:23,460 --> 00:21:25,589 so it's a profile made up 537 00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:27,719 of him based on like all his 538 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,179 travels, like which countries the 539 00:21:30,180 --> 00:21:31,919 for which countries he was going and 540 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,109 which dates and time, how much money 541 00:21:34,110 --> 00:21:36,239 he has on his accounts, how many cars you 542 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:37,470 have, how many 543 00:21:38,490 --> 00:21:39,929 houses he have. 544 00:21:39,930 --> 00:21:42,299 Oh this is, this 545 00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:44,879 is you could say that it's legal 546 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,039 because they are using public like 547 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,439 inor records of the government. 548 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,029 Then you have also digital 549 00:21:52,050 --> 00:21:54,539 surveillance based on 550 00:21:54,540 --> 00:21:56,939 active surveillance, which 551 00:21:56,940 --> 00:21:57,940 is um. 552 00:21:59,010 --> 00:22:00,899 Surveillance based on metadata 553 00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:03,119 collection, we don't know how yet they 554 00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:05,189 got this these things, we 555 00:22:05,190 --> 00:22:07,559 suspect that it was in compliance with 556 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,689 an Internet, Internet service providers 557 00:22:09,690 --> 00:22:11,729 and communication service providers. 558 00:22:11,730 --> 00:22:14,009 So there are between these Gretz 559 00:22:14,010 --> 00:22:16,529 based on far whom people were calling 560 00:22:16,530 --> 00:22:18,749 for whom people were sending e-mails from 561 00:22:18,750 --> 00:22:20,699 whom they were receiving calls from whom 562 00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:23,219 they were receiving mails and then 563 00:22:23,220 --> 00:22:25,769 building this like detailed reports 564 00:22:25,770 --> 00:22:27,899 like this woman, for example, is a 565 00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:29,999 journalist for the one of the biggest 566 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,469 television channels in Ecuador. 567 00:22:33,330 --> 00:22:36,239 Physical surveillance, this is even more 568 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,699 like this is a proof 569 00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:40,349 that they were really following and 570 00:22:40,350 --> 00:22:42,449 infiltrating in advance in 571 00:22:42,450 --> 00:22:44,849 life events of the major of the capital 572 00:22:44,850 --> 00:22:45,920 city, Quito. 573 00:22:47,550 --> 00:22:49,349 So after publishing it, we were really 574 00:22:49,350 --> 00:22:51,599 asking for an answer from the government. 575 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,029 But the answer they did actually was. 576 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,329 They say the embassy sent a letter to our 577 00:22:57,330 --> 00:22:59,039 media partner for this publication in 578 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:00,209 Germany, and that's politics, for 579 00:23:00,210 --> 00:23:02,729 example, saying that 580 00:23:02,730 --> 00:23:04,949 the documents should be 581 00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:08,009 taken out the website and that 582 00:23:08,010 --> 00:23:10,199 the journalist that that's politic was 583 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,569 performing was not good quality 584 00:23:12,570 --> 00:23:13,919 journalism. 585 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,079 Then they sent a letter to our ISP 586 00:23:17,250 --> 00:23:18,250 saying that, 587 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,529 accusing us of far things, first of it, 588 00:23:22,530 --> 00:23:25,019 first of them, copyright infringement, 589 00:23:25,020 --> 00:23:26,519 because actually in the documents we 590 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,529 publish said there were logos from the 591 00:23:28,530 --> 00:23:29,530 government. 592 00:23:32,460 --> 00:23:34,259 Then they also accused, which is more 593 00:23:34,260 --> 00:23:37,679 serious, that we were infringing 594 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,359 five articles from the penal code, 595 00:23:40,470 --> 00:23:42,569 one of them perceive of 596 00:23:42,570 --> 00:23:43,619 indefinite detention. 597 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,039 So thanks for both greenhouse and 598 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,779 that's politic for sticking with the 599 00:23:48,780 --> 00:23:50,789 materials online and telling us that they 600 00:23:50,790 --> 00:23:52,649 received this material and for publishing 601 00:23:52,650 --> 00:23:54,059 this material, I think actually that's 602 00:23:54,060 --> 00:23:55,139 Politicked publisher, the letter they 603 00:23:55,140 --> 00:23:56,140 received. 604 00:23:56,970 --> 00:23:59,369 Uh, so now 605 00:23:59,370 --> 00:24:01,599 I will make sure I don't 606 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:02,999 think we have too much time, so make a 607 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,309 very fast publication. 608 00:24:05,310 --> 00:24:06,859 You are the first ones to see this files. 609 00:24:06,860 --> 00:24:09,479 Actually, I'm just we just upload 610 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:10,979 15 minutes ago. 611 00:24:10,980 --> 00:24:13,199 It's an analysis of the risk factors for 612 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:14,430 Ecuadorian democracy 613 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:17,829 made up by the intelligence service. 614 00:24:17,830 --> 00:24:19,889 OK, so you can 615 00:24:19,890 --> 00:24:22,409 see what they consider risk factors 616 00:24:22,410 --> 00:24:24,539 for Democratico stability 617 00:24:24,540 --> 00:24:26,789 and what they consider to be 618 00:24:26,790 --> 00:24:28,919 events of risk for 619 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:30,209 Democratico stability. 620 00:24:30,210 --> 00:24:32,399 So you can see in the middle of 621 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,819 everything, it's it's media 622 00:24:34,820 --> 00:24:36,929 militarization of factors of critical 623 00:24:36,930 --> 00:24:39,029 factors. So for them, what is most 624 00:24:39,030 --> 00:24:41,159 important and one of the most dangerous 625 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,799 things is that they have media covering 626 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,690 critical points in their society. 627 00:24:47,390 --> 00:24:49,999 Then, for example, they have graphics 628 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,490 like relating events with media coverage. 629 00:24:55,570 --> 00:24:57,729 Then here they have an analysis 630 00:24:57,730 --> 00:24:59,039 of an event of risk, 631 00:25:00,220 --> 00:25:02,199 so they were this event of risks is 632 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:03,879 concerned to the change of laws that 633 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,379 Bethany said. 634 00:25:05,380 --> 00:25:06,849 So they were preventing that changing the 635 00:25:06,850 --> 00:25:09,129 laws would make that civil society 636 00:25:09,130 --> 00:25:12,459 and citizens would be 637 00:25:12,460 --> 00:25:14,649 enraged and feel that 638 00:25:14,650 --> 00:25:16,659 their basic rights were harmed. 639 00:25:16,660 --> 00:25:19,179 And if media would cover this 640 00:25:19,180 --> 00:25:21,130 like big protests, skewed outcome. 641 00:25:23,060 --> 00:25:25,129 Uh, so I don't have 642 00:25:25,130 --> 00:25:27,199 too much time so you can search this in 643 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:28,460 data. AWP. 644 00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:31,439 Yes, that's she put it. 645 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,579 Yes, but it's I guess, um. 646 00:25:35,620 --> 00:25:37,149 So you can just check it, I don't have 647 00:25:37,150 --> 00:25:39,549 too much time to develop on this now, so 648 00:25:39,550 --> 00:25:42,309 we have some conclusions, which is, uh, 649 00:25:42,310 --> 00:25:44,079 like complex problems and complex 650 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,329 solutions. So, for example, is 651 00:25:46,330 --> 00:25:48,489 Ecuador helping the cause of free speech 652 00:25:48,490 --> 00:25:50,979 by providing asylum to Julian Assange? 653 00:25:50,980 --> 00:25:53,170 Of course it is, of course. 654 00:25:54,290 --> 00:25:57,019 But is it really interested 655 00:25:57,020 --> 00:25:59,179 in providing freedom of speech 656 00:25:59,180 --> 00:26:00,799 inside the country? 657 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:01,800 No. 658 00:26:02,570 --> 00:26:04,999 So you can perfectly criticize Ecuadorian 659 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,369 policies regarding surveillance 660 00:26:07,370 --> 00:26:09,619 and also support WikiLeaks, 661 00:26:09,620 --> 00:26:11,059 actually, if you follow in these 662 00:26:11,060 --> 00:26:12,589 arguments that you can't criticize 663 00:26:12,590 --> 00:26:14,119 Ecuador because they are providing asylum 664 00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:15,389 to WikiLeaks. 665 00:26:15,390 --> 00:26:17,539 You're exactly following the argument 666 00:26:17,540 --> 00:26:19,789 that the Ecuadorian government wants. 667 00:26:19,790 --> 00:26:22,099 You will be able to, which is to avoid 668 00:26:22,100 --> 00:26:23,510 external criticism. 669 00:26:26,470 --> 00:26:28,599 Uh, I 670 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,759 want to address actually two 671 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,099 messages, first of all, this one is 672 00:26:33,100 --> 00:26:35,759 for you, like international community. 673 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,219 Which is split self-support 674 00:26:38,220 --> 00:26:40,439 and spread all that information, because 675 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,839 we don't have enough coverage about 676 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,939 it, like most of the coverage which 677 00:26:44,940 --> 00:26:47,159 criticizes Equador, unfortunately, 678 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,229 is biased by an anti 679 00:26:49,230 --> 00:26:51,269 anti WikiLeaks feeling. 680 00:26:51,270 --> 00:26:53,369 But actually, this is like really, truly 681 00:26:53,370 --> 00:26:55,499 something. That's both me and Mazzone. 682 00:26:55,500 --> 00:26:57,749 We saw and experimented as journalists 683 00:26:57,750 --> 00:26:58,750 in Ecuador. 684 00:27:00,090 --> 00:27:02,519 So if you can spread this message, 685 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,169 share this information in your channels 686 00:27:04,170 --> 00:27:06,329 or being in person or in 687 00:27:06,330 --> 00:27:08,249 an institutional way, we are very 688 00:27:08,250 --> 00:27:09,250 welcome. 689 00:27:09,630 --> 00:27:11,549 You can also keep sending us links. 690 00:27:11,550 --> 00:27:14,219 We are we promise they're going to 691 00:27:14,220 --> 00:27:15,769 keep publishing it. 692 00:27:15,770 --> 00:27:18,289 Then to finish, we had just, 693 00:27:18,290 --> 00:27:20,509 um, well, actually, this is we 694 00:27:20,510 --> 00:27:22,579 can start with, uh, the 695 00:27:22,580 --> 00:27:24,739 president, because Bethanie is 696 00:27:24,740 --> 00:27:27,619 blocked because they were after, uh, 697 00:27:27,620 --> 00:27:29,569 a pretty harsh conversation on Twitter so 698 00:27:29,570 --> 00:27:31,849 she can access the president's profile. 699 00:27:31,850 --> 00:27:33,199 But you can tweet him. 700 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:34,280 It's mashie Rafael. 701 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,839 So so that the second message 702 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,419 is exactly to him, which is 703 00:27:41,420 --> 00:27:43,429 this address said to the Mr. Rafael 704 00:27:43,430 --> 00:27:45,799 Correa, the president of the Republic 705 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,299 of Ecuador. 706 00:27:47,300 --> 00:27:50,389 So we are kindly asking him 707 00:27:50,390 --> 00:27:53,389 to implement oversight mechanisms 708 00:27:53,390 --> 00:27:55,549 in his intelligence service, 709 00:27:55,550 --> 00:27:56,550 which could allow. 710 00:27:59,020 --> 00:28:01,089 Senning to be accountable 711 00:28:01,090 --> 00:28:03,039 for what they do, because so far they've 712 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,739 been acting with total impunity. 713 00:28:05,740 --> 00:28:07,869 They are not even obligated to go 714 00:28:07,870 --> 00:28:10,389 to the National Assembly to ask 715 00:28:10,390 --> 00:28:12,909 questions from the assemblies. 716 00:28:12,910 --> 00:28:14,499 They can just deny or miss the 717 00:28:14,500 --> 00:28:16,239 appointments as they did the last time. 718 00:28:17,260 --> 00:28:18,849 They said they were going there and said, 719 00:28:18,850 --> 00:28:20,589 oh, no, we could not go and nothing 720 00:28:20,590 --> 00:28:22,929 happened. And so so far, CNN is working 721 00:28:22,930 --> 00:28:24,150 in total impunity. 722 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,159 Second thing we are going to ask him is 723 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,159 Rafael Correa, president of the Republic 724 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,289 of Ecuador, is 725 00:28:31,290 --> 00:28:33,419 to refactor the inner mechanisms 726 00:28:33,420 --> 00:28:35,909 of sinning in order to establish 727 00:28:35,910 --> 00:28:38,519 really basic standards 728 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,009 of transparency and accountability inside 729 00:28:41,010 --> 00:28:42,010 Sinem. 730 00:28:44,790 --> 00:28:46,949 Until he does, he doesn't do it. 731 00:28:46,950 --> 00:28:48,809 We will continue leaking and we continue 732 00:28:48,810 --> 00:28:50,939 exposing and we will not be afraid of 733 00:28:50,940 --> 00:28:53,519 harassment. We are not to be afraid 734 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,059 of legal para legal or illegal 735 00:28:57,060 --> 00:28:59,309 surveillance or pressure. 736 00:28:59,310 --> 00:29:00,310 He must know that. 737 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:12,919 Then there's like the last thing we ask 738 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,209 him is Rafael Correa, president 739 00:29:15,210 --> 00:29:17,429 of the Republic of Ecuador, is 740 00:29:17,430 --> 00:29:19,559 to grant its citizens and all 741 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,629 the foreigners which are working or 742 00:29:21,630 --> 00:29:23,729 living in Ecuador with 743 00:29:23,730 --> 00:29:25,589 one of the most basic rights of the 744 00:29:25,590 --> 00:29:27,299 people, which is the right to communicate 745 00:29:27,300 --> 00:29:29,489 freely without any interference 746 00:29:29,490 --> 00:29:31,269 by any means. 747 00:29:31,270 --> 00:29:32,270 I think. 748 00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:38,659 What do you think? 749 00:29:38,660 --> 00:29:39,660 Do we have. 750 00:29:42,550 --> 00:29:44,619 OK, so thanks very much for the talk. 751 00:29:44,620 --> 00:29:46,479 As you can see, we have a little over 752 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,369 time, so if you want to leave the room, 753 00:29:48,370 --> 00:29:50,529 please do so, but quietly. 754 00:29:50,530 --> 00:29:52,779 So if you have any questions, please line 755 00:29:52,780 --> 00:29:55,479 up at the microphones so that 756 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,809 Pedro and, um. 757 00:29:57,810 --> 00:29:59,219 Can answer them. 758 00:29:59,220 --> 00:30:01,379 Yeah, so we've got the first question 759 00:30:01,380 --> 00:30:03,599 at Mike number two. 760 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,789 All right. Um, so I actually work 761 00:30:05,790 --> 00:30:07,349 for Grinnell's with this. 762 00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:09,569 So we host Bedrolls website, and 763 00:30:09,570 --> 00:30:11,189 we wanted to say that we didn't get a 764 00:30:11,190 --> 00:30:13,109 warrant, so we didn't actually remove any 765 00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:15,419 data. We actually forwarded the request 766 00:30:15,420 --> 00:30:17,069 because it wasn't legal. 767 00:30:17,070 --> 00:30:19,599 So I just wanted to make that clear. 768 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,299 Yeah. Thank you for seeking. 769 00:30:27,910 --> 00:30:29,409 OK, another question from Mike. 770 00:30:29,410 --> 00:30:31,569 Number two, I 771 00:30:31,570 --> 00:30:32,570 wanted to ask 772 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,429 if there has been 773 00:30:36,430 --> 00:30:38,559 a reaction by the 774 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,719 government in all legal means 775 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,059 or, I don't know, with the 776 00:30:43,060 --> 00:30:45,549 blackmailing or something similar. 777 00:30:45,550 --> 00:30:46,599 I mean, us 778 00:30:47,650 --> 00:30:50,289 like it's nothing that we can prove. 779 00:30:50,290 --> 00:30:52,209 Like Batman just told about legal things 780 00:30:52,210 --> 00:30:54,279 they did with other people with us. 781 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,439 We just not said that they were really 782 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,499 pressuring our potential sources. 783 00:30:59,620 --> 00:31:02,079 And yes, in the airports, 784 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,359 it's always, always shit to leave 785 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,549 a or Ecuador. 786 00:31:06,550 --> 00:31:08,649 Yeah, but more than 787 00:31:08,650 --> 00:31:10,689 one that's like nothing. 788 00:31:10,690 --> 00:31:13,089 And then these letters of pressure 789 00:31:13,090 --> 00:31:14,499 and stuff. 790 00:31:14,500 --> 00:31:16,479 But so far, we think that maybe there is 791 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:17,859 some investigations going on. 792 00:31:17,860 --> 00:31:19,459 But so far. 793 00:31:19,460 --> 00:31:21,549 It's just pure fear and pressure. 794 00:31:23,900 --> 00:31:25,969 OK, next question, Mike, number six, 795 00:31:25,970 --> 00:31:26,970 please. 796 00:31:27,970 --> 00:31:30,069 Hey, thanks for the talk. 797 00:31:30,070 --> 00:31:32,439 I just wanted to know, 798 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,570 I think on the presidents 799 00:31:35,650 --> 00:31:37,779 thing here, it's Nippo, they're my 800 00:31:37,780 --> 00:31:40,329 power. What is that about 801 00:31:40,330 --> 00:31:42,609 people that in our Constitution. 802 00:31:42,610 --> 00:31:44,769 OK, so my power 803 00:31:44,770 --> 00:31:47,649 through the Constitution, which 804 00:31:47,650 --> 00:31:48,650 would change it. 805 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,639 OK, so next question would be Mike number 806 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,889 three, I was just 807 00:31:56,890 --> 00:31:59,049 wondering what other types of digital 808 00:31:59,050 --> 00:32:01,149 tools or technologies 809 00:32:01,150 --> 00:32:03,219 besides global leaks or green 810 00:32:03,220 --> 00:32:05,709 hosted services might be helpful to 811 00:32:06,790 --> 00:32:09,099 journalists and Ecuador? 812 00:32:09,100 --> 00:32:11,559 Well, all the ones that you 813 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,359 would recommend to journalists in 814 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,579 general, you have more experience 815 00:32:15,580 --> 00:32:17,499 than I do trying to train journalists in 816 00:32:17,500 --> 00:32:20,049 Ecuador, how to use secure technologies. 817 00:32:20,050 --> 00:32:21,369 It's an uphill battle. 818 00:32:25,540 --> 00:32:26,439 What do you think? 819 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,089 Well, I mean, there are a lot of tools 820 00:32:28,090 --> 00:32:30,429 that not only in Ecuador but in all over 821 00:32:30,430 --> 00:32:32,259 the globe journalists can use, but I 822 00:32:32,260 --> 00:32:34,329 think I'm not the best person to talk 823 00:32:34,330 --> 00:32:36,669 about it. But you can search for like 824 00:32:36,670 --> 00:32:38,679 any, like, store or things. 825 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,469 I wish I wish the journalists in Ecuador 826 00:32:41,470 --> 00:32:42,819 used to. 827 00:32:42,820 --> 00:32:44,949 I wish that journalists in Ecuador 828 00:32:44,950 --> 00:32:46,809 used Otar. 829 00:32:46,810 --> 00:32:48,699 I wish that journalists in Ecuador used 830 00:32:48,700 --> 00:32:51,099 signal. And I wish that they encrypted 831 00:32:51,100 --> 00:32:53,169 their hard drives because as we see, 832 00:32:53,170 --> 00:32:55,179 there are raids. 833 00:32:55,180 --> 00:32:56,180 There's danger. 834 00:32:58,190 --> 00:33:00,529 It's not just journalists, a 835 00:33:00,530 --> 00:33:02,089 tweeter who tweeted, 836 00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:06,199 what was he tweeting she or he was 837 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,509 tweeting about 838 00:33:08,510 --> 00:33:10,579 nepotism in the ministry and one 839 00:33:10,580 --> 00:33:12,409 of the ministries, and he got sent to 840 00:33:12,410 --> 00:33:14,629 jail for two weeks, not for 841 00:33:14,630 --> 00:33:17,119 publishing any incorrect information 842 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:18,170 just because 843 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,829 it was considered libelous that 844 00:33:21,830 --> 00:33:24,019 he accused the minister of 845 00:33:24,020 --> 00:33:25,129 of nepotism. 846 00:33:25,130 --> 00:33:27,529 So regular people are vulnerable, 847 00:33:27,530 --> 00:33:29,719 too, and people should 848 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:30,799 be protecting their 849 00:33:31,910 --> 00:33:33,739 their home drives and their their 850 00:33:33,740 --> 00:33:35,569 communications because there's a lot 851 00:33:35,570 --> 00:33:37,759 that's going on and it's only 852 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:38,760 getting worse. 853 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,969 OK, next question from Mike, number one, 854 00:33:41,970 --> 00:33:43,139 please. 855 00:33:43,140 --> 00:33:45,749 Uh, so I have actually two questions. 856 00:33:45,750 --> 00:33:48,329 The first is, how has the judicial 857 00:33:48,330 --> 00:33:50,519 system responded to these 858 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,859 new laws that regard 859 00:33:52,860 --> 00:33:54,929 the freedom of expression, as you 860 00:33:54,930 --> 00:33:56,909 put it? And the second question is, 861 00:33:56,910 --> 00:33:58,679 according to your point of view, what is 862 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,199 the state of Internet freedom, 863 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,419 especially of Internet censorship in 864 00:34:03,420 --> 00:34:04,859 Ecuador? Thank you. 865 00:34:04,860 --> 00:34:06,989 Well, I think the first one, Bethany, can 866 00:34:06,990 --> 00:34:09,059 reply maybe because 867 00:34:09,060 --> 00:34:11,579 there was a whole, uh, renewal 868 00:34:11,580 --> 00:34:13,829 of the jurisdictional system. 869 00:34:13,830 --> 00:34:16,169 Second one is that the state of 870 00:34:16,170 --> 00:34:18,269 Internet freedom is actually we 871 00:34:18,270 --> 00:34:19,589 were going to publish another thing 872 00:34:19,590 --> 00:34:20,590 today. 873 00:34:21,090 --> 00:34:22,919 Maybe we can publish tomorrow. 874 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,109 So B, which is this 875 00:34:25,110 --> 00:34:27,178 like they said, they they really we 876 00:34:27,179 --> 00:34:29,339 have evidence that they have 877 00:34:29,340 --> 00:34:31,710 blocked both Twitter and Google. 878 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,019 During some days, because 879 00:34:36,020 --> 00:34:38,629 an anonymous group, anonymous 880 00:34:38,630 --> 00:34:40,789 group had published documents of 881 00:34:40,790 --> 00:34:42,979 the Senate in two years ago, so we have 882 00:34:42,980 --> 00:34:44,569 evidence that they actually blocked 883 00:34:44,570 --> 00:34:46,759 Twitter and YouTube, not 884 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,599 sorry, YouTube and Google. 885 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,899 And so I think the 886 00:34:50,900 --> 00:34:52,519 the state of Internet freedom is very 887 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:53,089 poor. 888 00:34:53,090 --> 00:34:55,339 Well, I I 889 00:34:55,340 --> 00:34:56,869 think it's actually really interesting 890 00:34:56,870 --> 00:34:58,429 what's going on in Ecuador, because you 891 00:34:58,430 --> 00:35:01,009 see the use of tactics 892 00:35:01,010 --> 00:35:04,549 of softer tactics like DMCA 893 00:35:04,550 --> 00:35:06,469 takedown notices through YouTube and 894 00:35:06,470 --> 00:35:09,379 Twitter and Facebook to 895 00:35:09,380 --> 00:35:11,929 get accounts shut down, to get videos 896 00:35:11,930 --> 00:35:12,930 taken down. 897 00:35:13,970 --> 00:35:16,249 And there's a massive investment 898 00:35:16,250 --> 00:35:17,300 in propaganda. 899 00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:20,739 There has been there have been 900 00:35:20,740 --> 00:35:23,139 publications saying that the government 901 00:35:23,140 --> 00:35:25,329 hires armies of trolls and 902 00:35:25,330 --> 00:35:27,489 puts them in an office and they flood 903 00:35:27,490 --> 00:35:30,489 social media with with messages 904 00:35:30,490 --> 00:35:33,429 to sort of move the conversation 905 00:35:33,430 --> 00:35:35,949 in in the direction that 906 00:35:35,950 --> 00:35:37,839 they're that they want. 907 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:39,789 And so it's kind of interesting. 908 00:35:39,790 --> 00:35:42,189 I don't see a lot of those shutdowns 909 00:35:42,190 --> 00:35:44,889 or blockages, but but definitely 910 00:35:44,890 --> 00:35:47,079 attempts to influence 911 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,239 what what what is said and what is read. 912 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:54,559 Did you did you have another question? 913 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:55,560 No. 914 00:35:56,230 --> 00:35:57,039 Thank you. 915 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:58,089 You're welcome. 916 00:35:58,090 --> 00:35:59,829 So, Mike, number three, please. 917 00:35:59,830 --> 00:36:02,230 I am so first of all, 918 00:36:03,460 --> 00:36:05,139 I agree completely that there is a bunch 919 00:36:05,140 --> 00:36:06,879 of really problematic stuff going on. 920 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,309 And I really especially appreciate Pedros 921 00:36:09,310 --> 00:36:11,529 list of actions and questions, 922 00:36:11,530 --> 00:36:13,629 I think sunniness extremely problematic. 923 00:36:13,630 --> 00:36:14,889 I have two small questions. 924 00:36:14,890 --> 00:36:17,169 The first one is the use 925 00:36:17,170 --> 00:36:19,479 of your word, the word in a title 926 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:20,480 authoritarian. 927 00:36:22,750 --> 00:36:24,369 The reason why I'm asking about is 928 00:36:24,370 --> 00:36:26,529 because focusing on Alianza payees, not 929 00:36:26,530 --> 00:36:27,699 not Rafael Correa. 930 00:36:27,700 --> 00:36:29,199 I mean, they still have an approval 931 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,329 rating of between 60 and 80 percent, 932 00:36:31,330 --> 00:36:32,469 depending on how you look. Do they? 933 00:36:32,470 --> 00:36:34,209 When was the last time you read that? 934 00:36:36,250 --> 00:36:38,559 Half a year ago. So but 935 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:39,459 it doesn't really matter. 936 00:36:39,460 --> 00:36:40,809 I mean, at the end of the day, it's still 937 00:36:40,810 --> 00:36:42,909 a popular like 938 00:36:42,910 --> 00:36:45,069 it's an election system that seems 939 00:36:45,070 --> 00:36:46,689 to work. I haven't heard any allegations 940 00:36:46,690 --> 00:36:48,309 of voter fraud of any kind. 941 00:36:48,310 --> 00:36:50,709 Right. So I guess, like for 942 00:36:50,710 --> 00:36:52,779 democracy, even though there are 943 00:36:52,780 --> 00:36:54,249 these bad things going on, is that 944 00:36:54,250 --> 00:36:55,749 actually authoritarian? 945 00:36:55,750 --> 00:36:57,789 And the second question comes with your 946 00:36:57,790 --> 00:36:59,859 specific history, because you 947 00:36:59,860 --> 00:37:01,029 work with the society. 948 00:37:01,030 --> 00:37:03,099 Right, which was funded by the 949 00:37:03,100 --> 00:37:05,439 government in order to investigate issues 950 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,089 of copyright and intellectual property 951 00:37:07,090 --> 00:37:08,319 and freedom of speech and many of these 952 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,479 things in order to actually make for 953 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,249 better regulation. 954 00:37:12,250 --> 00:37:14,409 So it seems to me I mean, 955 00:37:14,410 --> 00:37:16,149 from my perspective, this is a 956 00:37:16,150 --> 00:37:17,049 complicated issue. 957 00:37:17,050 --> 00:37:18,969 But we have a big government that is 958 00:37:18,970 --> 00:37:20,679 pulling in a lot of different directions. 959 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:22,749 It's very clear that the A and some parts 960 00:37:22,750 --> 00:37:24,669 of the presidency are pulling in both 961 00:37:24,670 --> 00:37:26,439 directions. But there also seems to be a 962 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,569 lot of areas of the government that 963 00:37:28,570 --> 00:37:30,879 are trying really hard to a lot 964 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,799 in other directions. 965 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,139 I think that there are less and less, 966 00:37:35,140 --> 00:37:37,179 and I think that there were a lot of 967 00:37:37,180 --> 00:37:38,709 people pulling in good directions. 968 00:37:38,710 --> 00:37:40,989 And you sort of you see them leaving 969 00:37:40,990 --> 00:37:43,599 as it becomes 970 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,449 more clear how hard it is to 971 00:37:46,450 --> 00:37:48,129 have a progressive agenda. 972 00:37:48,130 --> 00:37:50,319 Your first question about 973 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:51,729 the word authoritarian? 974 00:37:51,730 --> 00:37:53,139 Yeah, I can. 975 00:37:53,140 --> 00:37:55,299 Well, let's talk about 976 00:37:55,300 --> 00:37:58,329 well, regarding democracy. 977 00:37:58,330 --> 00:38:00,759 The party actually lost 978 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,469 the last election that happened in 979 00:38:02,470 --> 00:38:05,439 Ecuador. They lost the mayor 980 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,599 elections and prefect elections 981 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,759 and a lot of cities. And that that 982 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:11,949 was the last election and 983 00:38:11,950 --> 00:38:14,799 it was widely considered to be a rebuke 984 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,319 of their leadership. 985 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,959 And the next elections are in two years 986 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,599 and it's not really looking good 987 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,669 for them. I, I wouldn't 988 00:38:24,670 --> 00:38:25,670 bet on them. 989 00:38:26,470 --> 00:38:29,049 But you're right. It is a democracy and. 990 00:38:31,990 --> 00:38:33,999 So I don't think that early on suffice 991 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,189 loses. Do you think the right 992 00:38:36,190 --> 00:38:37,569 wing opposition is going to be better for 993 00:38:37,570 --> 00:38:38,529 the country? 994 00:38:38,530 --> 00:38:40,809 It depends who the opposition 995 00:38:40,810 --> 00:38:42,939 who is, I think comes 996 00:38:42,940 --> 00:38:43,859 next. 997 00:38:43,860 --> 00:38:45,249 It's it's not a democracy. 998 00:38:45,250 --> 00:38:46,809 It's not just because people vote that 999 00:38:46,810 --> 00:38:47,739 it's a democracy. 1000 00:38:47,740 --> 00:38:49,419 Like, if people don't have information 1001 00:38:49,420 --> 00:38:51,729 enough to choose for whom they're voting 1002 00:38:51,730 --> 00:38:53,379 and who are their leaders and what their 1003 00:38:53,380 --> 00:38:55,629 leaders are doing, it's not a democracy. 1004 00:38:55,630 --> 00:38:57,999 So that's why I put on the title 1005 00:38:58,000 --> 00:38:59,739 authoritarian, because people they don't 1006 00:38:59,740 --> 00:39:01,269 have information enough to judge by 1007 00:39:01,270 --> 00:39:03,459 themselves what their leaders are doing. 1008 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:06,349 Are there any democracies then? 1009 00:39:12,210 --> 00:39:14,369 Well, we all know 1010 00:39:14,370 --> 00:39:15,370 the answer. 1011 00:39:16,350 --> 00:39:18,209 OK, so another question from Mike number 1012 00:39:18,210 --> 00:39:18,989 three. 1013 00:39:18,990 --> 00:39:19,979 Hi. 1014 00:39:19,980 --> 00:39:21,509 So I really appreciated your talk. 1015 00:39:21,510 --> 00:39:23,609 And as Peter, we've never 1016 00:39:23,610 --> 00:39:24,989 talked, but I talked with Bethany a lot 1017 00:39:24,990 --> 00:39:26,009 before the talk. 1018 00:39:26,010 --> 00:39:27,719 And it was really actually glad to see 1019 00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:29,729 that there was a separation between the 1020 00:39:29,730 --> 00:39:31,859 idea of a uniformed state 1021 00:39:31,860 --> 00:39:33,509 and the intelligence service. 1022 00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:35,940 And I think the only mistake in your talk 1023 00:39:37,020 --> 00:39:39,689 is the idea that there's a uniform state. 1024 00:39:39,690 --> 00:39:41,579 So when you say Ecuador is for the world, 1025 00:39:41,580 --> 00:39:43,169 I think that there are elements of the 1026 00:39:43,170 --> 00:39:45,329 Ecuadorian government who actually 1027 00:39:45,330 --> 00:39:46,379 do care about WikiLeaks. 1028 00:39:46,380 --> 00:39:47,849 For example, the Ecuadorian government 1029 00:39:47,850 --> 00:39:49,709 has offered to protect me from the US 1030 00:39:49,710 --> 00:39:51,929 government. And I feel very strongly 1031 00:39:51,930 --> 00:39:54,089 that they would actually back that up. 1032 00:39:54,090 --> 00:39:55,349 And I've been to Ecuador a number of 1033 00:39:55,350 --> 00:39:56,399 times and well, I've been there. 1034 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:57,989 I've had very bad experiences with the 1035 00:39:57,990 --> 00:40:00,119 Senate and the presidency 1036 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:01,289 and the vice presidency actually 1037 00:40:01,290 --> 00:40:03,119 protected me from the Senate and until I 1038 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:04,289 left the country. 1039 00:40:04,290 --> 00:40:05,760 So my experience is this. 1040 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:08,249 I'm sorry to follow in the leftist 1041 00:40:08,250 --> 00:40:10,599 tradition of giving a five minute speech 1042 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:12,599 and then asking yourself answering 1043 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,759 question. But I'm going to do that 1044 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:16,079 and you're going to love it. 1045 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:17,080 So 1046 00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:21,029 they protected me and they let me know 1047 00:40:21,030 --> 00:40:23,189 that this is dangerous and that even 1048 00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:25,019 if you're a guest of the presidency, if 1049 00:40:25,020 --> 00:40:27,239 the Senate doesn't like you, you're going 1050 00:40:27,240 --> 00:40:29,369 to end up in a ditch 1051 00:40:29,370 --> 00:40:30,869 with a bullet in your head. 1052 00:40:30,870 --> 00:40:32,939 So if you can imagine, these are the 1053 00:40:32,940 --> 00:40:34,349 political class of Ecuador that are 1054 00:40:34,350 --> 00:40:36,209 explaining to me that they don't have the 1055 00:40:36,210 --> 00:40:38,309 ability to protect even their guests 1056 00:40:38,310 --> 00:40:40,169 who they, in theory, want to protect. 1057 00:40:40,170 --> 00:40:42,509 So to call that one country 1058 00:40:42,510 --> 00:40:44,159 and to say that the sending in and the 1059 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,589 Ecuadorian political class are the same 1060 00:40:46,590 --> 00:40:48,629 is a hmm. 1061 00:40:48,630 --> 00:40:50,789 I feel like it's a simplification that 1062 00:40:50,790 --> 00:40:53,129 betrays your lack of information 1063 00:40:53,130 --> 00:40:54,809 about how these power structures actually 1064 00:40:54,810 --> 00:40:55,779 exist. 1065 00:40:55,780 --> 00:40:56,869 And I feel like this. 1066 00:40:56,870 --> 00:40:58,499 And in our extremely dangerous and it 1067 00:40:58,500 --> 00:40:59,819 follows a pattern we see all around the 1068 00:40:59,820 --> 00:41:01,079 world, which is that the intelligence 1069 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,059 services of the world are out of control. 1070 00:41:03,060 --> 00:41:04,289 They have total capture of 1071 00:41:04,290 --> 00:41:06,299 telecommunication systems and they 1072 00:41:06,300 --> 00:41:08,069 actually capture the political class 1073 00:41:08,070 --> 00:41:09,209 inside and out. 1074 00:41:09,210 --> 00:41:10,859 I mean, the presidency is very worried 1075 00:41:10,860 --> 00:41:12,209 about the sun and tapping his phone 1076 00:41:12,210 --> 00:41:13,709 calls, for example. 1077 00:41:13,710 --> 00:41:15,719 And there's no way that you can protect 1078 00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:17,339 against an intelligence service of your 1079 00:41:17,340 --> 00:41:18,749 own service. 1080 00:41:18,750 --> 00:41:20,549 And so I think all your criticisms here 1081 00:41:20,550 --> 00:41:22,379 are actually pretty much centered around 1082 00:41:22,380 --> 00:41:24,479 the Senate in and the 1083 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,579 fact that there are external forces that 1084 00:41:26,580 --> 00:41:28,829 are trying to empower dissent and 1085 00:41:28,830 --> 00:41:30,689 to overthrow the Ecuadorian state. 1086 00:41:30,690 --> 00:41:32,789 And I mean, I've met the Department of 1087 00:41:32,790 --> 00:41:35,019 Defense, the minister of defense, 1088 00:41:35,020 --> 00:41:37,079 I've met a former the former minister 1089 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:38,319 of defense, the former. 1090 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,439 It's one of those who has left the 1091 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:41,519 government recently. 1092 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,349 Absolutely. But listen, when I met her, 1093 00:41:43,350 --> 00:41:44,939 one of the things that she was very clear 1094 00:41:44,940 --> 00:41:47,039 about was that there are 1095 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:48,569 elements in the Ecuadorian government, 1096 00:41:48,570 --> 00:41:50,939 especially this morning, who 1097 00:41:50,940 --> 00:41:52,679 are fucking scary and they want to kill 1098 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,679 people like Correa and her. 1099 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:57,809 And I think you can't say that that's the 1100 00:41:57,810 --> 00:41:59,369 same. There's an internal political 1101 00:41:59,370 --> 00:42:01,559 struggle and there are really good people 1102 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,149 who put their life on the line, some of 1103 00:42:03,150 --> 00:42:04,829 whom have actually been killed, some 1104 00:42:04,830 --> 00:42:06,299 people who have died. 1105 00:42:06,300 --> 00:42:08,429 And there's also elements of the CIA 1106 00:42:08,430 --> 00:42:09,779 in that country. I met the head of 1107 00:42:09,780 --> 00:42:11,129 counterintelligence. I had dinner with 1108 00:42:11,130 --> 00:42:12,869 him. That was fucking awkward. 1109 00:42:12,870 --> 00:42:14,279 Let me tell you. 1110 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:15,599 Do you want to talk about pressing for 1111 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,159 end to end encryption and not getting 1112 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:18,719 anywhere? That was a conversation like 1113 00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:20,819 that and didn't 1114 00:42:20,820 --> 00:42:22,199 give him any drugs. 1115 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,809 And I would have 1116 00:42:24,810 --> 00:42:26,219 just didn't have the opportunity. 1117 00:42:26,220 --> 00:42:28,499 But but the point is 1118 00:42:28,500 --> 00:42:30,599 to to say this as one 1119 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:31,589 thing is the mistake. 1120 00:42:31,590 --> 00:42:33,239 And so I wonder if you can acknowledge 1121 00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:34,379 this is my question. 1122 00:42:34,380 --> 00:42:36,209 Can you acknowledge that the Senate is 1123 00:42:36,210 --> 00:42:38,129 the big, big problem and that they 1124 00:42:38,130 --> 00:42:39,929 actually control the political class and 1125 00:42:39,930 --> 00:42:41,609 the political class is afraid of them and 1126 00:42:41,610 --> 00:42:43,499 not the other way around? 1127 00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:45,569 Yeah. Is that like I think Bettini also 1128 00:42:45,570 --> 00:42:47,339 thought that was a problem. 1129 00:42:47,340 --> 00:42:49,469 We also like I personally think 1130 00:42:49,470 --> 00:42:51,599 that SINNEN is 1131 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,669 part of a bigger problem, which is like, 1132 00:42:53,670 --> 00:42:55,679 as Bethany told, there are a bunch of 1133 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,139 other kind of of legal measures 1134 00:42:58,140 --> 00:43:00,449 which are restricting freedom of speech. 1135 00:43:00,450 --> 00:43:01,409 I agree with that. 1136 00:43:01,410 --> 00:43:03,479 Sending in a certain way is a different 1137 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:04,949 thing from foreign government. 1138 00:43:04,950 --> 00:43:07,109 In some some ways they don't respect 1139 00:43:07,110 --> 00:43:09,869 actually Korea's intentions. 1140 00:43:09,870 --> 00:43:12,209 For example, we have evidence that 1141 00:43:12,210 --> 00:43:14,309 they spy, even identify 1142 00:43:14,310 --> 00:43:16,469 which is which is the Korean spy, 1143 00:43:16,470 --> 00:43:18,569 even though I think 1144 00:43:18,570 --> 00:43:20,159 that Korea has power enough. 1145 00:43:21,540 --> 00:43:24,029 But to change these policies 1146 00:43:24,030 --> 00:43:27,239 and try to change the name from 1147 00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:28,619 yes, from the beginning, let's say 1148 00:43:28,620 --> 00:43:30,749 Restructure Senning, I 1149 00:43:30,750 --> 00:43:32,519 mean, maybe he doesn't want or is not 1150 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,739 political worth it for him to try 1151 00:43:34,740 --> 00:43:36,579 to do it now, especially because 1152 00:43:36,580 --> 00:43:37,580 elections are coming. 1153 00:43:38,580 --> 00:43:41,459 But I think that's that's also 1154 00:43:41,460 --> 00:43:43,559 actually the purpose of 1155 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,509 this dog. We said we are not going to 1156 00:43:45,510 --> 00:43:47,129 just criticize the government, but in the 1157 00:43:47,130 --> 00:43:49,769 end, we will try to demand some 1158 00:43:49,770 --> 00:43:51,959 small two things to Korea, 1159 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,899 which is to implement an oversight 1160 00:43:54,900 --> 00:43:57,099 mechanism for training and restructure 1161 00:43:57,100 --> 00:43:59,189 listening in order for it to have basic 1162 00:43:59,190 --> 00:44:01,679 standards of transparency. 1163 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:03,449 And he has the power to do that. 1164 00:44:03,450 --> 00:44:05,279 And what he's going to say after this 1165 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,439 talk is his career is 1166 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,409 going to go on television and say 1167 00:44:10,410 --> 00:44:12,089 CNN is accountable. 1168 00:44:12,090 --> 00:44:14,879 There are prosecutors 1169 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,039 in their office that approve every 1170 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:18,040 intercept. 1171 00:44:19,620 --> 00:44:21,989 We Korea founded CNN. 1172 00:44:21,990 --> 00:44:24,059 It was his baby in 2009. 1173 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,179 And he's going to say we wrote this 1174 00:44:27,180 --> 00:44:30,089 new plan for national security. 1175 00:44:30,090 --> 00:44:32,999 We got rid of all the old cops and we 1176 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,339 formed our new agency. 1177 00:44:35,340 --> 00:44:37,139 He defends them in public. 1178 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,189 And he's very bad at accepting 1179 00:44:41,190 --> 00:44:44,039 criticism and and and 1180 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,709 taking making reforms. 1181 00:44:46,710 --> 00:44:49,139 And it's one of his biggest his biggest 1182 00:44:49,140 --> 00:44:50,759 downfalls. 1183 00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:51,899 So I don't know. 1184 00:44:51,900 --> 00:44:54,059 I mean, you can at some point 1185 00:44:54,060 --> 00:44:56,369 you have to lay some 1186 00:44:56,370 --> 00:44:58,529 blame on him for 1187 00:44:58,530 --> 00:45:00,239 his handling of them. 1188 00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:02,849 If you want to believe 1189 00:45:02,850 --> 00:45:04,949 that the Senate is so evil that 1190 00:45:04,950 --> 00:45:07,020 the president of the country can't 1191 00:45:08,250 --> 00:45:10,439 reform them or challenge them or make 1192 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,749 any changes, I will 1193 00:45:12,750 --> 00:45:13,979 hold a different view. 1194 00:45:13,980 --> 00:45:16,500 But I agree with you that they. 1195 00:45:17,570 --> 00:45:19,699 Ah, the biggest 1196 00:45:19,700 --> 00:45:20,700 problem. 1197 00:45:23,340 --> 00:45:25,439 I have got one more question from 1198 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:25,769 Mike. 1199 00:45:25,770 --> 00:45:27,899 Number two, I 1200 00:45:27,900 --> 00:45:30,449 was just wondering, in terms of the 1201 00:45:30,450 --> 00:45:32,849 discussion about SINNEN, I think 1202 00:45:32,850 --> 00:45:35,129 that I was wondering actually 1203 00:45:35,130 --> 00:45:37,859 how you view it in an overall context. 1204 00:45:37,860 --> 00:45:40,799 I mean, is I guess 1205 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:42,539 who's the bulldog is? 1206 00:45:42,540 --> 00:45:44,789 It's CNN who sort of has been raised 1207 00:45:44,790 --> 00:45:47,069 and bred by career, who then 1208 00:45:47,070 --> 00:45:48,719 says, well, we're even afraid of this 1209 00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:50,909 thing or is it the 1210 00:45:50,910 --> 00:45:53,039 opposite? Sort of it really is in 1211 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,919 control, able to to 1212 00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,349 do what it wants with Korea, scared 1213 00:45:58,350 --> 00:46:00,149 of it and really unable to move. 1214 00:46:00,150 --> 00:46:02,339 It's more complex. You cannot simply 1215 00:46:02,340 --> 00:46:03,419 find its way. 1216 00:46:03,420 --> 00:46:05,429 But I think what denying for example, for 1217 00:46:05,430 --> 00:46:07,709 me, it's part of a global problem, 1218 00:46:07,710 --> 00:46:09,119 which is a problem of the intelligence 1219 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,489 complex as as Jacob said. 1220 00:46:11,490 --> 00:46:13,649 But in my my feelings, 1221 00:46:13,650 --> 00:46:15,449 that's when I really got out of his 1222 00:46:15,450 --> 00:46:16,450 control. 1223 00:46:17,380 --> 00:46:19,689 And if he can do anything 1224 00:46:19,690 --> 00:46:21,849 now or if he doesn't want 1225 00:46:21,850 --> 00:46:24,069 to do anything, he has 1226 00:46:24,070 --> 00:46:25,070 to accomplice. 1227 00:46:26,980 --> 00:46:29,379 But I think, yeah, it's the two things 1228 00:46:29,380 --> 00:46:31,569 like heat, exercise, some control 1229 00:46:31,570 --> 00:46:33,429 on it, but on the other hand, there are 1230 00:46:33,430 --> 00:46:35,529 some things that CNN does without 1231 00:46:35,530 --> 00:46:37,839 his mother asking him 1232 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:39,900 and he cannot really stop it anymore. 1233 00:46:41,970 --> 00:46:43,619 There's another question from the mike, 1234 00:46:43,620 --> 00:46:44,980 number three again, 1235 00:46:46,380 --> 00:46:48,359 so I mean, I'm glad that you said that 1236 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,669 because I could have just sat down, but 1237 00:46:50,670 --> 00:46:51,899 I'll take this opportunity to just say 1238 00:46:51,900 --> 00:46:53,610 one other thing, which is that 1239 00:46:54,690 --> 00:46:56,729 the Senate in being the primary problem, 1240 00:46:56,730 --> 00:46:58,679 the question that's open to me is how do 1241 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:00,269 we deconstruct the intelligence service? 1242 00:47:00,270 --> 00:47:02,459 I mean, I'm of the eliminate the state 1243 00:47:02,460 --> 00:47:03,769 crypto world. 1244 00:47:03,770 --> 00:47:04,919 You want to get rid of the state. 1245 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:06,359 The state's dangerous, you know. 1246 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:07,679 You know, when you do cryptographic 1247 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:09,179 signatures, for example, or when you 1248 00:47:09,180 --> 00:47:10,349 build laptops or something. 1249 00:47:10,350 --> 00:47:12,089 And in general, maybe we want to also 1250 00:47:12,090 --> 00:47:14,069 take that tactic also for states, real 1251 00:47:14,070 --> 00:47:16,169 states. And so maybe Ecuador would be 1252 00:47:16,170 --> 00:47:18,029 better off if you had a revolution. 1253 00:47:18,030 --> 00:47:20,099 I'm not sure. But maybe but then the 1254 00:47:20,100 --> 00:47:21,209 question is, what about a limited 1255 00:47:21,210 --> 00:47:22,769 revolution? So what are the actual 1256 00:47:22,770 --> 00:47:24,419 practical things that you can do to get 1257 00:47:24,420 --> 00:47:27,569 rid of this in a in like for example, 1258 00:47:27,570 --> 00:47:29,339 the way that people think about states 1259 00:47:29,340 --> 00:47:30,869 with a person in charge of them, for 1260 00:47:30,870 --> 00:47:33,269 example, Obama, is he really responsible 1261 00:47:33,270 --> 00:47:34,679 for every bad thing that happens in 1262 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,869 America? Every time a cop shoots a black 1263 00:47:36,870 --> 00:47:39,039 person, which is every single day, 1264 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,249 I, I feel like we have to think 1265 00:47:41,250 --> 00:47:43,079 about states differently than we think 1266 00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:44,639 about people. Right. 1267 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:46,649 And so in this case, the question is, 1268 00:47:46,650 --> 00:47:49,079 what does the political class of Ecuador 1269 00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:50,579 and what can we as an international 1270 00:47:50,580 --> 00:47:52,889 community do to destroy the intelligence 1271 00:47:52,890 --> 00:47:53,909 service of Ecuador? 1272 00:47:53,910 --> 00:47:55,379 And I feel like that's the question we 1273 00:47:55,380 --> 00:47:57,569 should be asking, because that's 1274 00:47:57,570 --> 00:47:59,219 a thing we can turn into a political 1275 00:47:59,220 --> 00:48:01,409 action plan and a subversive 1276 00:48:01,410 --> 00:48:03,509 kind of revolutionary action plan, 1277 00:48:03,510 --> 00:48:04,649 frankly. Yeah. 1278 00:48:04,650 --> 00:48:06,179 To actually do that. But the question is, 1279 00:48:06,180 --> 00:48:07,709 what do we do? How do we do that? 1280 00:48:07,710 --> 00:48:09,659 And to all of our friends and say, you 1281 00:48:09,660 --> 00:48:10,660 know 1282 00:48:12,030 --> 00:48:14,279 what, you got us, but 1283 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:15,749 what do we do to take that down? 1284 00:48:15,750 --> 00:48:17,039 How do you get rid of an intelligence 1285 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:17,249 service? 1286 00:48:17,250 --> 00:48:18,929 Because if we're going to hold him responsible, 1287 00:48:18,930 --> 00:48:20,759 what is the actual thing we need to do, 1288 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:22,229 like go burn the building down? 1289 00:48:22,230 --> 00:48:23,609 Probably don't do that. That seems like a 1290 00:48:23,610 --> 00:48:25,439 bad idea because, you know, they can just 1291 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,599 move. So, you know, 1292 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:28,709 they have a really nice building. 1293 00:48:28,710 --> 00:48:29,939 They have a pool. 1294 00:48:29,940 --> 00:48:30,940 Yeah. 1295 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:34,249 Probably where they'll find all of our 1296 00:48:34,250 --> 00:48:36,169 bodies the next time we're in know, but 1297 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:38,719 but, hey, you know, you got to die 1298 00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:41,119 someday. So but but what do we actually 1299 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:42,529 what do we actually do? How do we do 1300 00:48:42,530 --> 00:48:44,149 this? Like, for example, we know they do 1301 00:48:44,150 --> 00:48:45,499 mass surveillance. 1302 00:48:45,500 --> 00:48:47,479 They ask me actually to build a mass 1303 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,159 surveillance system to wiretap the entire 1304 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:50,509 country of Ecuador. 1305 00:48:50,510 --> 00:48:51,879 And you said that. 1306 00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:52,939 I know that. 1307 00:48:52,940 --> 00:48:54,559 And I couldn't add it to my talk. 1308 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,209 But have you guys confirming that? 1309 00:48:56,210 --> 00:48:57,349 And so so check it out. 1310 00:48:57,350 --> 00:48:59,239 So I told them to go fuck themselves and 1311 00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:01,879 I reported them to the presidency and 1312 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,639 explained to the presidency that they 1313 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:06,379 had asked me to do this specifically to 1314 00:49:06,380 --> 00:49:08,689 bypass the judicial review 1315 00:49:08,690 --> 00:49:10,279 because they wanted to wiretap judges in 1316 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:11,359 the political class. 1317 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:12,979 And I said, well, you want to wiretap the 1318 00:49:12,980 --> 00:49:14,299 democratically elected leaders? 1319 00:49:14,300 --> 00:49:15,679 And they said, no, no, it's a translation 1320 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,029 problem. And I said, you know, I speak 1321 00:49:17,030 --> 00:49:18,019 enough Spanish. 1322 00:49:18,020 --> 00:49:19,729 And the president's translator actually 1323 00:49:19,730 --> 00:49:21,049 translated it. So I don't think it's a 1324 00:49:21,050 --> 00:49:23,059 problem. I think you're proposing a coup. 1325 00:49:23,060 --> 00:49:25,759 And yeah, like, I have your names, 1326 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,519 and so I just you're fucked. 1327 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:30,739 And so the thing is, what do we do 1328 00:49:30,740 --> 00:49:31,339 to stop that? 1329 00:49:31,340 --> 00:49:33,439 I think the answer is we deploy crypto 1330 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:35,569 and we have political responses 1331 00:49:35,570 --> 00:49:37,239 to that. But what do we really ask from 1332 00:49:37,240 --> 00:49:38,719 Korea? Because when I went to them, they 1333 00:49:38,720 --> 00:49:40,459 said, you know, what do we do? 1334 00:49:40,460 --> 00:49:41,779 And I think it's a big open question 1335 00:49:41,780 --> 00:49:43,939 because you don't take on a 1336 00:49:43,940 --> 00:49:45,920 military or an intelligence service. 1337 00:49:47,580 --> 00:49:49,529 Lately, and when you do, you lose, they 1338 00:49:49,530 --> 00:49:51,569 kill you and these guys, I mean, these 1339 00:49:51,570 --> 00:49:54,059 guys actually told me the CIA followed me 1340 00:49:54,060 --> 00:49:56,039 to Ecuador and they ejected a CIA agent, 1341 00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:57,360 which was very awkward, by the way. 1342 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:00,509 And so, you know, what a fucking 1343 00:50:00,510 --> 00:50:01,409 complex situation. 1344 00:50:01,410 --> 00:50:02,669 So what do we actually do about that? 1345 00:50:02,670 --> 00:50:04,559 For me, I just don't go back to Ecuador, 1346 00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,689 but for people in Ecuador, that's not 1347 00:50:06,690 --> 00:50:08,909 really an option. So what action plan 1348 00:50:08,910 --> 00:50:10,079 do we actually have now? 1349 00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:11,189 I can't believe I told you all those 1350 00:50:11,190 --> 00:50:13,289 things, but fucking light it 1351 00:50:13,290 --> 00:50:14,429 on fire. 1352 00:50:14,430 --> 00:50:16,529 So I can't believe you told us 1353 00:50:16,530 --> 00:50:17,989 all those things either. 1354 00:50:17,990 --> 00:50:19,529 I have a headache now. 1355 00:50:19,530 --> 00:50:21,509 Yeah, well, you know you know, the coffee 1356 00:50:21,510 --> 00:50:23,219 here is great, but the dexamphetamine is 1357 00:50:23,220 --> 00:50:24,220 even better. 1358 00:50:24,870 --> 00:50:26,129 I mean, just kidding. 1359 00:50:26,130 --> 00:50:27,659 First of all, I think like Korea must be 1360 00:50:27,660 --> 00:50:28,920 it must feel responsible. 1361 00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:35,979 OK, I'm sorry for your last question, but 1362 00:50:35,980 --> 00:50:38,319 we can't do an answer to that, so 1363 00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:40,339 I don't think anybody can answer that yet 1364 00:50:40,340 --> 00:50:41,340 again. 1365 00:50:41,650 --> 00:50:43,839 Thanks a lot for the Talk Back. 1366 00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:45,729 All the questions for the conversations 1367 00:50:45,730 --> 00:50:46,730 and.