0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Dear viewer, these subtitles were generated by a machine via the service Trint and therefore are (very) buggy. If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/700 Thanks! 1 00:00:13,290 --> 00:00:15,629 Our guest today is Ingrid Berrington, 2 00:00:15,630 --> 00:00:17,579 I try to find something out about her and 3 00:00:17,580 --> 00:00:19,649 on her website, she really describes her 4 00:00:19,650 --> 00:00:21,209 personality and what she does in a very 5 00:00:21,210 --> 00:00:22,109 fluid way. 6 00:00:22,110 --> 00:00:24,149 So you could say she's an artist, she's 7 00:00:24,150 --> 00:00:25,379 also a writer. 8 00:00:25,380 --> 00:00:27,509 Maybe she could also say 9 00:00:27,510 --> 00:00:30,239 she's a programmer, she's an academic. 10 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:31,919 I feel like it very much depends on the 11 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:33,419 perspective that you have. 12 00:00:33,420 --> 00:00:35,069 If you wanted to describe what it is she 13 00:00:35,070 --> 00:00:36,659 does. And I think that also translates 14 00:00:36,660 --> 00:00:38,999 very well to the talk she's going to give 15 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:39,899 today. 16 00:00:39,900 --> 00:00:41,609 So it's going to be about Internet 17 00:00:41,610 --> 00:00:43,499 infrastructure, which is a rather 18 00:00:43,500 --> 00:00:44,879 abstract concept. 19 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:46,889 And our talk will be about how to think 20 00:00:46,890 --> 00:00:48,719 about abstract concepts and how to 21 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:50,699 visualize them. And I ask you for a very 22 00:00:50,700 --> 00:00:52,949 warm round of applause for Ingrid. 23 00:00:52,950 --> 00:00:54,240 There's a lot of fun. Thank you. 24 00:00:58,980 --> 00:01:00,659 Thank you so much for that introduction. 25 00:01:00,660 --> 00:01:02,579 It's always funny hearing how people 26 00:01:02,580 --> 00:01:04,559 think they know what it is they think you 27 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,109 do when you aren't 28 00:01:07,110 --> 00:01:08,250 entirely sure yourself. 29 00:01:09,300 --> 00:01:11,489 Thank you so much to all of the 30 00:01:11,490 --> 00:01:13,409 staff and volunteers. 31 00:01:13,410 --> 00:01:15,389 This has been fantastic. 32 00:01:15,390 --> 00:01:16,439 And thank you all for coming. 33 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,089 I mean, picking me over interplanetary 34 00:01:18,090 --> 00:01:20,369 colonization is like it's a pretty 35 00:01:20,370 --> 00:01:21,779 bold move. 36 00:01:21,780 --> 00:01:24,329 So my name is Ingrid. 37 00:01:24,330 --> 00:01:26,519 I guess broadly I tend to tell people 38 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:28,079 that I'm an artist and a writer. 39 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,599 And I think the reason that 40 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:32,699 I was invited to give a talk here 41 00:01:32,700 --> 00:01:34,769 is because of this book that I 42 00:01:34,770 --> 00:01:35,969 wrote. 43 00:01:35,970 --> 00:01:37,529 It's called Networks of New York. 44 00:01:37,530 --> 00:01:39,479 This is the cover from an addition that 45 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,909 was released this past summer by 46 00:01:41,910 --> 00:01:44,279 a real press that like has distribution 47 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,769 and things that I don't understand. 48 00:01:46,770 --> 00:01:48,749 The first edition of it, which was self 49 00:01:48,750 --> 00:01:51,059 published book that I made, looked 50 00:01:51,060 --> 00:01:52,199 like this. 51 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,179 I wrote and conceived of a lot of it 52 00:01:54,180 --> 00:01:56,099 while I was a resident at IBM, which is 53 00:01:56,100 --> 00:01:57,959 an art and technology organization in New 54 00:01:57,960 --> 00:01:58,960 York. 55 00:01:59,370 --> 00:02:01,469 And I have a couple of copies of this 56 00:02:01,470 --> 00:02:03,179 with me in case anyone I didn't know if 57 00:02:03,180 --> 00:02:04,559 the trades were a thing at this 58 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:06,659 conference, but if you are into that 59 00:02:06,660 --> 00:02:08,559 sort of thing, maybe not. 60 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:10,739 OK, so I 61 00:02:10,740 --> 00:02:12,119 kind of think of the book is like fairly 62 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:13,019 self-explanatory. 63 00:02:13,020 --> 00:02:14,519 It's a guide to finding the Internet on 64 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,579 the street. And what that means is it's 65 00:02:16,580 --> 00:02:18,839 it's a catalog of illustrations 66 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,389 and short summaries of different kind of 67 00:02:21,390 --> 00:02:23,639 quotidian indicators of 68 00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:25,709 bits of network infrastructure that 69 00:02:25,710 --> 00:02:27,509 you might see in New York City, stuff 70 00:02:27,510 --> 00:02:29,669 that you would probably easily walk past 71 00:02:29,670 --> 00:02:31,109 if you weren't kind of bothering to look 72 00:02:31,110 --> 00:02:33,119 for it. So, you know, in theory, you 73 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,279 could have this book and 74 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,039 see something like this on a sidewalk 75 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:39,569 and pull out your book and say, I wonder 76 00:02:39,570 --> 00:02:41,669 what that is. And oh, well, it appears to 77 00:02:41,670 --> 00:02:43,829 be some fiber optic cables owned by 78 00:02:43,830 --> 00:02:45,719 Level three communications, which is a 79 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:47,309 large telecommunications company. 80 00:02:47,310 --> 00:02:49,649 Now, you know that and I 81 00:02:49,650 --> 00:02:52,229 don't know if I necessarily need 82 00:02:52,230 --> 00:02:54,689 to explain to people who won voluntarily 83 00:02:54,690 --> 00:02:56,189 come to this conference and to 84 00:02:56,190 --> 00:02:58,229 voluntarily came to this talk that 85 00:02:58,230 --> 00:03:00,659 Internet infrastructure is cool as shit. 86 00:03:00,660 --> 00:03:03,239 But I mean, how many people here, like, 87 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:04,859 have gone to see a submarine cable 88 00:03:04,860 --> 00:03:05,909 landing site for fun? 89 00:03:07,150 --> 00:03:09,309 How many people understand 90 00:03:09,310 --> 00:03:10,689 the impulse to do that, 91 00:03:12,140 --> 00:03:14,499 OK, all right, so I'm with my people. 92 00:03:14,500 --> 00:03:16,239 This is great. So I'm not going to go too 93 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,309 deep into, like, why this stuff kind 94 00:03:18,310 --> 00:03:20,020 of is like inherently kind of compelling. 95 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:22,929 The thing that I guess the book does, 96 00:03:22,930 --> 00:03:24,819 maybe aside from maybe getting people who 97 00:03:24,820 --> 00:03:26,889 wouldn't otherwise care to be into it, 98 00:03:26,890 --> 00:03:28,989 is it is sort of this sideways way to 99 00:03:28,990 --> 00:03:30,819 introduce them to a lot of aspects of 100 00:03:30,820 --> 00:03:33,309 sort of the history and political context 101 00:03:33,310 --> 00:03:35,469 of network infrastructure and how that 102 00:03:35,470 --> 00:03:36,879 kind of comes back to the Internet that 103 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:38,139 we use on a day to day basis. 104 00:03:38,140 --> 00:03:39,999 Right. Like, who are all these companies 105 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:41,499 that own all of these cables and 106 00:03:41,500 --> 00:03:43,359 conduits? And what sort of is the 107 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:44,949 bureaucratic process of getting to lay 108 00:03:44,950 --> 00:03:47,079 fiber in New York City 109 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,419 and also some of the network systems 110 00:03:49,420 --> 00:03:51,489 that are part of making a city function 111 00:03:51,490 --> 00:03:53,379 that aren't necessarily thought of as 112 00:03:53,380 --> 00:03:54,489 Internet infrastructure, but are 113 00:03:54,490 --> 00:03:56,499 networked. So surveillance systems kind 114 00:03:56,500 --> 00:03:57,500 of come into play there. 115 00:03:58,750 --> 00:04:00,549 Try and remember, with the next slide is 116 00:04:00,550 --> 00:04:02,559 on this. Oh, I wasn't originally going to 117 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,269 talk about this, but I forgot that I 118 00:04:04,270 --> 00:04:05,689 noted it in my abstract. 119 00:04:05,690 --> 00:04:07,059 So I'm going to try and do it briefly and 120 00:04:07,060 --> 00:04:08,619 then move on. 121 00:04:08,620 --> 00:04:10,299 So I don't know how many how many people 122 00:04:10,300 --> 00:04:12,759 here vaguely familiar with this 123 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:14,499 magazine cover. 124 00:04:14,500 --> 00:04:15,729 All right. Like one or two. 125 00:04:15,730 --> 00:04:18,369 Great. So 20 years ago, in 126 00:04:18,370 --> 00:04:20,439 December of nineteen ninety six, Wired 127 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:21,969 magazine, back when they would do weird 128 00:04:21,970 --> 00:04:24,129 shit, commissioned science 129 00:04:24,130 --> 00:04:26,169 fiction writer Neal Stephenson to write 130 00:04:26,170 --> 00:04:28,149 an essay about fiber optic link around 131 00:04:28,150 --> 00:04:30,219 the globe, which was this kind of 132 00:04:30,220 --> 00:04:32,349 major submarine cable project 133 00:04:32,350 --> 00:04:34,509 that kind of represented a shift 134 00:04:34,510 --> 00:04:36,669 in network infrastructure or 135 00:04:36,670 --> 00:04:38,139 in the building and kind of financing of 136 00:04:38,140 --> 00:04:39,729 network infrastructure kind of related to 137 00:04:39,730 --> 00:04:40,730 the first bubble. 138 00:04:41,710 --> 00:04:43,899 And he wrote a forty two thousand 139 00:04:43,900 --> 00:04:46,239 word essay and they published 140 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:47,139 it in its entirety. 141 00:04:47,140 --> 00:04:49,239 Weirdly, you can't find images of 142 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,669 the actual print spreads online anymore, 143 00:04:51,670 --> 00:04:53,349 which kind of misses the point, like 144 00:04:53,350 --> 00:04:54,669 there was some incredible photography in 145 00:04:54,670 --> 00:04:55,670 it. 146 00:04:56,530 --> 00:04:59,199 And the thing that happens when you 147 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,509 are a nice young lady working 148 00:05:01,510 --> 00:05:02,829 on things related to network 149 00:05:02,830 --> 00:05:04,989 infrastructure and you 150 00:05:04,990 --> 00:05:07,149 tell someone and there may be a man 151 00:05:07,150 --> 00:05:08,169 that you're doing that. 152 00:05:08,170 --> 00:05:09,789 They say, oh, have you read that Neil 153 00:05:09,790 --> 00:05:10,989 Stephenson essay? 154 00:05:10,990 --> 00:05:13,119 And the thing is, like we all have anyone 155 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,009 who is working in this space in the last 156 00:05:15,010 --> 00:05:17,199 five to seven years has hit this. 157 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:18,699 And it's partly because it's incredibly 158 00:05:18,700 --> 00:05:20,379 important and very valuable. 159 00:05:20,380 --> 00:05:22,599 But I wanted to kind of, I guess, mention 160 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,699 it because I think that it's it 161 00:05:24,700 --> 00:05:27,129 has shaped the ways that people 162 00:05:27,130 --> 00:05:28,569 the ways that I think visual culture 163 00:05:28,570 --> 00:05:30,699 thinks about and relates to this stuff in 164 00:05:30,700 --> 00:05:32,259 a way that I always feel a little itchy 165 00:05:32,260 --> 00:05:34,419 about. I think it's a really valuable 166 00:05:34,420 --> 00:05:36,879 and amazing text, 167 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:37,869 but there's something about it that I 168 00:05:37,870 --> 00:05:39,069 never really kind of grokked. 169 00:05:39,070 --> 00:05:40,659 And I think it's partly this idea that 170 00:05:40,660 --> 00:05:42,369 Stevenson evokes a lot called the hacker 171 00:05:42,370 --> 00:05:43,419 tourist. 172 00:05:43,420 --> 00:05:45,489 Right. And his exact definition of what 173 00:05:45,490 --> 00:05:47,889 a hacker tourist is, is 174 00:05:47,890 --> 00:05:49,989 someone who will travel to exotic 175 00:05:49,990 --> 00:05:52,179 locations in search of sites 176 00:05:52,180 --> 00:05:54,039 and sensations that would only be of 177 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:55,040 interest to a geek. 178 00:05:57,550 --> 00:05:59,799 So there's a lot to unpack there 179 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:01,449 because exotic to whom? 180 00:06:01,450 --> 00:06:03,459 Like under what context are we talking 181 00:06:03,460 --> 00:06:05,649 about exoticism or anything and sort 182 00:06:05,650 --> 00:06:07,419 of sights and sounds of interest to a 183 00:06:07,420 --> 00:06:09,189 geek? Sort of. And just to be fair, in 184 00:06:09,190 --> 00:06:10,479 nineteen ninety six, there's kind of a 185 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,099 very particular narrative that he's 186 00:06:12,100 --> 00:06:13,209 looking at in a very particular 187 00:06:13,210 --> 00:06:15,279 subculture. But at this point, I don't 188 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:17,499 know when I when I read a lot 189 00:06:17,500 --> 00:06:19,269 of that text, there's an element of like 190 00:06:19,270 --> 00:06:21,459 the reason that this Neal Stephenson 191 00:06:21,460 --> 00:06:22,359 thinks that you should find this 192 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,849 interesting is because it's stuff that 193 00:06:24,850 --> 00:06:26,619 white people in developed countries don't 194 00:06:26,620 --> 00:06:28,449 have to do the heavy lifting over and 195 00:06:28,450 --> 00:06:30,429 generally can afford to take for granted. 196 00:06:30,430 --> 00:06:32,169 And like, I don't know, there's sort of 197 00:06:32,170 --> 00:06:33,969 like a conquerer braggadocio to the whole 198 00:06:33,970 --> 00:06:36,159 thing, which is kind of, I guess 199 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,129 like cyberpunk in essence. 200 00:06:39,130 --> 00:06:40,839 But it's something that I guess I've been 201 00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:42,159 trying to figure out where to position 202 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:43,779 myself in relation to that, which is the 203 00:06:43,780 --> 00:06:44,859 main reason I guess I bring it up. 204 00:06:44,860 --> 00:06:47,049 I guess I take a very anti heroic 205 00:06:47,050 --> 00:06:48,669 approach to this stuff, giving people the 206 00:06:48,670 --> 00:06:50,319 means to go have adventures of themselves 207 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:51,879 rather than the sort of bold. 208 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,379 I went on an adventure and then I wrote 209 00:06:53,380 --> 00:06:54,789 forty two thousand words about it. 210 00:06:54,790 --> 00:06:57,099 And I, the cleverest boy in the world, 211 00:06:57,100 --> 00:06:58,569 just isn't that compelling to me. 212 00:06:58,570 --> 00:07:00,879 I guess rather than a hacker tourist, 213 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:02,350 I guess I'd rather be a hacker pilgrim. 214 00:07:04,930 --> 00:07:06,849 But I think there's something interesting 215 00:07:06,850 --> 00:07:08,559 about the fact that there has been this 216 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,019 sort of uptick in the last few years 217 00:07:11,020 --> 00:07:12,609 in interest both kind of in the art 218 00:07:12,610 --> 00:07:14,289 world. And I think kind of just in visual 219 00:07:14,290 --> 00:07:16,509 culture, in finding better kind 220 00:07:16,510 --> 00:07:18,639 of images to represent 221 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:20,499 the networked world we live in beyond 222 00:07:20,500 --> 00:07:22,299 sort of like stock photos of ones and 223 00:07:22,300 --> 00:07:23,300 zeros. 224 00:07:23,860 --> 00:07:26,619 And I think some of the appeal 225 00:07:26,620 --> 00:07:29,289 of going to and kind of fetishizing 226 00:07:29,290 --> 00:07:31,209 the data center and fetishizing the 227 00:07:31,210 --> 00:07:33,099 submarine cable landing and these sort of 228 00:07:33,100 --> 00:07:34,899 like big heavy industry projects has to 229 00:07:34,900 --> 00:07:37,269 do partly with the fact it is really 230 00:07:37,270 --> 00:07:39,459 cool, but also because it's part 231 00:07:39,460 --> 00:07:41,499 of there's been sort of this shift in 232 00:07:41,500 --> 00:07:42,789 like. 233 00:07:42,790 --> 00:07:45,099 Power and control over those things and 234 00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:47,229 also the kinds of decisions about who 235 00:07:47,230 --> 00:07:48,699 gets to make those visuals also has to do 236 00:07:48,700 --> 00:07:50,829 with kind of how certain institutions 237 00:07:50,830 --> 00:07:53,079 want to position themselves in history. 238 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,049 I did a project earlier this year 239 00:07:56,050 --> 00:07:58,209 at a gallery in Berlin where I 240 00:07:58,210 --> 00:08:00,909 made large scale lenticular prints 241 00:08:00,910 --> 00:08:01,929 of satellite imagery. 242 00:08:01,930 --> 00:08:03,159 For people who aren't familiar with what 243 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,169 a lenticular print is, it's basically 244 00:08:05,170 --> 00:08:07,329 like a really low fi hologram, like 245 00:08:07,330 --> 00:08:08,709 there's sort of a trick of the light that 246 00:08:08,710 --> 00:08:10,659 you create with slits, scanned images, 247 00:08:10,660 --> 00:08:12,099 and when you flip them, they change. 248 00:08:12,100 --> 00:08:13,839 I brought a couple of tiny ones, but this 249 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:15,219 room is too big to pass them around. 250 00:08:15,220 --> 00:08:16,719 So if you want to see them up close, you 251 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:17,720 can later. 252 00:08:18,580 --> 00:08:20,649 So the images were satellite imagery 253 00:08:20,650 --> 00:08:22,779 of places that were kind of related to 254 00:08:22,780 --> 00:08:24,819 or affected by sort of the satellite 255 00:08:24,820 --> 00:08:26,979 perspective writ large, because the fact 256 00:08:26,980 --> 00:08:29,139 that we can look at the world from space 257 00:08:29,140 --> 00:08:31,419 is really weird, especially 258 00:08:31,420 --> 00:08:33,369 considering that how much of the ability 259 00:08:33,370 --> 00:08:35,769 to do that was classified until really 260 00:08:35,770 --> 00:08:37,749 not that long ago. 261 00:08:37,750 --> 00:08:39,979 One set of prints in this 262 00:08:39,980 --> 00:08:42,308 in this series were of 263 00:08:42,309 --> 00:08:43,509 Google data centers. 264 00:08:43,510 --> 00:08:45,339 And this is to give you an idea of how 265 00:08:45,340 --> 00:08:46,669 the lenticular print effect works. 266 00:08:46,670 --> 00:08:48,129 Do you get it? I assume you get it. 267 00:08:48,130 --> 00:08:50,229 Now, one of 268 00:08:50,230 --> 00:08:52,159 the reasons that Google Data Center 269 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:53,949 seemed relevant to include in this sort 270 00:08:53,950 --> 00:08:56,079 of representation of some of the kind 271 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,209 of landscapes related to this God's 272 00:08:58,210 --> 00:09:00,249 eye view from nowhere is that more than 273 00:09:00,250 --> 00:09:02,529 any other company, Google has sort of 274 00:09:02,530 --> 00:09:05,319 shaped and normalized that perspective. 275 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:06,789 I said that to a friend who used to work 276 00:09:06,790 --> 00:09:08,289 at NASA and he got really mad at me. 277 00:09:08,290 --> 00:09:09,489 And I was like, sorry, dude, they made 278 00:09:09,490 --> 00:09:10,600 the interface. But 279 00:09:11,650 --> 00:09:13,329 I think, you know, the fact that this 280 00:09:13,330 --> 00:09:14,379 stuff is kind of something that you can 281 00:09:14,380 --> 00:09:16,749 just pull up in a browser is largely 282 00:09:16,750 --> 00:09:18,879 their responsibility. 283 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,099 The other reason that I included 284 00:09:21,100 --> 00:09:23,109 Google data centers in this project is 285 00:09:23,110 --> 00:09:25,299 because of a rumor that I have heard 286 00:09:25,300 --> 00:09:27,399 for years from multiple people and that 287 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,369 I don't really know if it's true. 288 00:09:30,370 --> 00:09:32,199 I almost feel like the fact that it could 289 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,419 be true is mostly what I find interesting 290 00:09:34,420 --> 00:09:35,829 about it. And the rumor was basically 291 00:09:35,830 --> 00:09:37,989 that Google removes their 292 00:09:37,990 --> 00:09:39,909 own data centers from their satellite 293 00:09:39,910 --> 00:09:41,769 imagery, and it's totally conceivable 294 00:09:41,770 --> 00:09:43,209 that they could because they remove and 295 00:09:43,210 --> 00:09:45,129 censor and blur out other things all the 296 00:09:45,130 --> 00:09:46,539 time at the request of governments. 297 00:09:46,540 --> 00:09:48,699 Right. This is the only example 298 00:09:48,700 --> 00:09:50,409 I've seen where it seemed like that could 299 00:09:50,410 --> 00:09:52,359 be what was going on. This particular 300 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,549 image is from a series 301 00:09:54,550 --> 00:09:55,989 of screenshots that I kind of tiled 302 00:09:55,990 --> 00:09:57,519 together in twenty sixteen. 303 00:09:58,540 --> 00:10:00,759 And this is from USGS 304 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:02,799 ortho imagery that it's like free and 305 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:04,899 publicly available from twenty fourteen. 306 00:10:04,900 --> 00:10:06,549 So they had like two years to update 307 00:10:06,550 --> 00:10:08,229 their data from the construction of this 308 00:10:08,230 --> 00:10:10,119 particular data center and maybe they 309 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,159 just didn't because like the earth is big 310 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:13,599 and they're really busy because they're 311 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:14,049 Google. 312 00:10:14,050 --> 00:10:15,399 There's lots of reasons. 313 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,649 The only other person I know 314 00:10:17,650 --> 00:10:20,289 who has like specifically mentioned 315 00:10:20,290 --> 00:10:22,179 this or seen and has screenshots that 316 00:10:22,180 --> 00:10:23,739 kind of reflect this point was Andrew 317 00:10:23,740 --> 00:10:25,809 Blum, who's the author of Toobs, 318 00:10:25,810 --> 00:10:27,399 which is another really great book on 319 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:28,779 Internet infrastructure that everyone is 320 00:10:28,780 --> 00:10:29,829 going to tell you to read. 321 00:10:29,830 --> 00:10:31,089 The difference is that Andrew Blum is 322 00:10:31,090 --> 00:10:32,169 actually a really nice guy. 323 00:10:35,350 --> 00:10:36,969 Got someone here probably knows stance 324 00:10:36,970 --> 00:10:37,970 and Christ 325 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:40,440 getting in trouble. 326 00:10:42,370 --> 00:10:44,529 But this other thing that's sort of funny 327 00:10:44,530 --> 00:10:46,750 that's happened is basically 328 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:50,499 Google has kind of gotten ahead of this 329 00:10:50,500 --> 00:10:52,449 in a way like in twenty sixteen, it is 330 00:10:52,450 --> 00:10:54,789 remarkably trivially easy to find 331 00:10:54,790 --> 00:10:57,249 a Google data center on Google Earth, 332 00:10:57,250 --> 00:10:59,709 which as someone who spent a lot of time 333 00:10:59,710 --> 00:11:01,839 a few years ago trying to find this stuff 334 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:03,099 like I'm a little bit angry. 335 00:11:03,100 --> 00:11:05,049 I'm like, you don't know how hard it was. 336 00:11:05,050 --> 00:11:07,269 Back in my day, we walked uphill 337 00:11:07,270 --> 00:11:09,309 in the snow both ways just to find a data 338 00:11:09,310 --> 00:11:10,310 center. 339 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,059 And Google's kind of effort to get 340 00:11:13,060 --> 00:11:14,799 ahead of this narrative, I think has to 341 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:16,929 do with a few things right. 342 00:11:16,930 --> 00:11:20,019 One of them is that around twenty twelve 343 00:11:20,020 --> 00:11:22,059 Greenpeace got really into this campaign 344 00:11:22,060 --> 00:11:24,249 where they were calling out large 345 00:11:24,250 --> 00:11:26,589 cloud companies for using 346 00:11:26,590 --> 00:11:28,899 coal energy, for powering their giant 347 00:11:28,900 --> 00:11:30,189 energy consuming data centers. 348 00:11:30,190 --> 00:11:32,139 And they were kind of challenging them on 349 00:11:32,140 --> 00:11:33,639 sort of their, like, environmental 350 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:35,289 impacts. And it was a fairly effective 351 00:11:35,290 --> 00:11:37,719 campaign. And since then, a lot of 352 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:39,999 at least a very large like 353 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,519 platform. So Amazon, Facebook, 354 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,099 Google, Microsoft have really 355 00:11:45,100 --> 00:11:46,929 made an effort to invest in green energy, 356 00:11:46,930 --> 00:11:48,249 which doesn't really account for, like 357 00:11:48,250 --> 00:11:49,929 all of the like mom and pop normal data 358 00:11:49,930 --> 00:11:52,719 centers or places like Equinix who like 359 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:54,999 aren't household names to most people. 360 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:56,649 They might be the people here, which is 361 00:11:56,650 --> 00:11:57,650 nice. 362 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,129 So I think that one thing was sort of a 363 00:12:00,130 --> 00:12:02,139 PR effort, like you're going to talk 364 00:12:02,140 --> 00:12:03,459 about our data centers, we're going to 365 00:12:03,460 --> 00:12:05,409 get ahead of you and present them on our 366 00:12:05,410 --> 00:12:07,449 terms, and they're going to be great and 367 00:12:07,450 --> 00:12:08,649 they're going to look great and you can't 368 00:12:08,650 --> 00:12:09,650 get mad at us. 369 00:12:10,540 --> 00:12:12,399 Another thing, I think that kind of shape 370 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,499 that was like one did even kind of 371 00:12:14,500 --> 00:12:16,659 get ahead of 372 00:12:16,660 --> 00:12:17,769 the hacker tourists. 373 00:12:17,770 --> 00:12:19,359 Right. Like not wanting to make these 374 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:20,649 things, like making sure that they were 375 00:12:20,650 --> 00:12:22,539 kind of like approachable and like 376 00:12:22,540 --> 00:12:24,199 interesting, like in and of themselves 377 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:25,779 and not something sort of like exotic and 378 00:12:25,780 --> 00:12:26,780 like hidden. Right. 379 00:12:28,030 --> 00:12:29,859 And the thing that I don't know, the 380 00:12:29,860 --> 00:12:32,049 thing that hasn't I feel like I haven't 381 00:12:32,050 --> 00:12:33,849 seen this super well articulated in many 382 00:12:33,850 --> 00:12:35,169 places, but it's been kind of like 383 00:12:35,170 --> 00:12:36,609 gnawing at my brain a lot. 384 00:12:36,610 --> 00:12:37,779 Is that a weird thing? 385 00:12:37,780 --> 00:12:39,669 That is kind of a weird byproduct of 386 00:12:39,670 --> 00:12:42,089 these companies trying to go green. 387 00:12:42,090 --> 00:12:44,459 Is also that they're kind of further 388 00:12:44,460 --> 00:12:46,109 inculcating themselves as parallel 389 00:12:46,110 --> 00:12:47,699 sovereigns, right, like they run their 390 00:12:47,700 --> 00:12:48,869 own power grids. 391 00:12:48,870 --> 00:12:50,669 They don't have to answer to anybody. 392 00:12:50,670 --> 00:12:51,959 Right. If Amazon's building their own 393 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,299 wind farms, like there's something really 394 00:12:54,300 --> 00:12:56,399 literal about building a fiefdom when 395 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:58,589 you have your own fucking wind farm that 396 00:12:58,590 --> 00:12:59,820 I find really fascinating. 397 00:13:01,740 --> 00:13:03,899 And, you know, the software industry has 398 00:13:03,900 --> 00:13:05,159 become a heavy industry. 399 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,289 Right? Like, I don't think 20 years 400 00:13:07,290 --> 00:13:08,909 ago, like 20 years ago, it was like a 401 00:13:08,910 --> 00:13:11,459 surprise when a small upstart telco 402 00:13:11,460 --> 00:13:13,049 wanted to get into the cable business. 403 00:13:13,050 --> 00:13:14,579 I don't think 20 years ago the idea of a 404 00:13:14,580 --> 00:13:16,229 software company getting in on the game 405 00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:18,479 ever would have really been conceivable. 406 00:13:19,590 --> 00:13:21,629 So and I think that this matter is in 407 00:13:21,630 --> 00:13:23,639 part because I think there's a kind of 408 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,889 historical narrative that is being 409 00:13:25,890 --> 00:13:28,019 constructed or that it was 410 00:13:28,020 --> 00:13:29,039 always being constructed. 411 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,289 But in this effort by companies 412 00:13:31,290 --> 00:13:33,839 to kind of dove in and help contribute 413 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,149 to defining that system, something 414 00:13:36,150 --> 00:13:38,069 new is happening and it matters. 415 00:13:38,070 --> 00:13:40,649 Right. Who tells these histories is 416 00:13:40,650 --> 00:13:42,689 the patron saint of cyborg feminism. 417 00:13:42,690 --> 00:13:44,369 Donna Harrower has once put it. 418 00:13:44,370 --> 00:13:46,049 It matters which stories tell stories, 419 00:13:46,050 --> 00:13:48,299 which systems systematize systems. 420 00:13:49,530 --> 00:13:51,719 And I like looking at 421 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,999 the sort of grimy, low 422 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,459 level head like physical parts 423 00:13:56,460 --> 00:13:58,529 of like kind of history and of built 424 00:13:58,530 --> 00:13:59,729 systems, because they're sort of we're 425 00:13:59,730 --> 00:14:01,499 like the loose threads of history and you 426 00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:03,299 kind of tug on them and find something 427 00:14:03,300 --> 00:14:04,199 that you weren't expecting. 428 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:05,489 And it takes you down a path that you 429 00:14:05,490 --> 00:14:07,110 didn't really expect to go on. 430 00:14:08,490 --> 00:14:11,189 And I think that for me, an architectural 431 00:14:11,190 --> 00:14:14,159 and kind of geography based approach 432 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:15,869 is kind of important because technology 433 00:14:15,870 --> 00:14:17,999 itself tends to want to amoore itself 434 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,369 from geography and from history 435 00:14:20,370 --> 00:14:22,139 and as a consequence, kind of also from 436 00:14:22,140 --> 00:14:24,179 politics and accountability. 437 00:14:24,180 --> 00:14:26,399 This is a story that I always have 438 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,019 fun telling a few. 439 00:14:28,020 --> 00:14:30,149 Last year, I went on a tour of 440 00:14:30,150 --> 00:14:31,949 a Facebook data center for a story I 441 00:14:31,950 --> 00:14:33,269 wrote for The Atlantic. 442 00:14:33,270 --> 00:14:35,669 And before they take you into 443 00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:37,829 the room with all the blinky 444 00:14:37,830 --> 00:14:39,569 lights and the servers, they have this 445 00:14:39,570 --> 00:14:41,639 hallway with a timeline of the 446 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:43,599 history of human communications. 447 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,689 And it has these stock photos and these. 448 00:14:45,690 --> 00:14:47,639 And so you can see it starts, you know, 449 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:48,899 there's a tour guide and it starts with 450 00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:50,999 these like handprints on cave 451 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:52,000 walls. 452 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,409 And it ends you can see behind 453 00:14:55,410 --> 00:14:56,849 are very kind tourguide. 454 00:14:56,850 --> 00:14:59,519 It ends with a Facebook like 455 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,249 and this sort of timeline progress bar 456 00:15:02,250 --> 00:15:04,649 that is suddenly going up very 457 00:15:04,650 --> 00:15:05,650 sharply. 458 00:15:06,300 --> 00:15:09,179 And I remember we were leaving 459 00:15:09,180 --> 00:15:11,279 Sam Chronixx, the my friend who was 460 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,589 my photographer for this project. 461 00:15:13,590 --> 00:15:15,959 And I was like, well, you know, I guess 462 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,209 I guess caves were kind of like the first 463 00:15:18,210 --> 00:15:19,230 Facebook walls. 464 00:15:21,100 --> 00:15:23,159 And like, you could think 465 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:25,049 that if you wanted to. 466 00:15:25,050 --> 00:15:27,269 And I think if you kind 467 00:15:27,270 --> 00:15:28,949 of need to believe that if you're going 468 00:15:28,950 --> 00:15:30,839 to be building Facebook, like if you want 469 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:32,399 to be able to sleep at night, maybe you 470 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:33,749 just kind of have to convince yourself 471 00:15:33,750 --> 00:15:35,039 that you're literally building the 472 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,379 apotheosis of human communication. 473 00:15:38,970 --> 00:15:40,619 And I don't think to be fair, like I 474 00:15:40,620 --> 00:15:42,929 don't know, it's not entirely Facebook's 475 00:15:42,930 --> 00:15:44,039 fault that this is sort of how they're 476 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:45,629 approaching history. Another funny thing 477 00:15:45,630 --> 00:15:47,789 that I noticed during this walk through 478 00:15:47,790 --> 00:15:50,099 and timeline was that all of these major 479 00:15:50,100 --> 00:15:52,229 technical innovations were treated sort 480 00:15:52,230 --> 00:15:53,999 of without any historical context, like 481 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,199 it was kind of just like the printing 482 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,569 press, great books, like no mention 483 00:15:57,570 --> 00:15:59,309 of the Reformation or like kind of 484 00:15:59,310 --> 00:16:00,959 transformations and social upheaval in 485 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,149 Europe. It was just like sharing his 486 00:16:03,150 --> 00:16:05,129 cool books. 487 00:16:05,130 --> 00:16:06,130 Right. 488 00:16:06,510 --> 00:16:08,459 And that that desire to kind of pretend 489 00:16:08,460 --> 00:16:10,649 that technology kind 490 00:16:10,650 --> 00:16:12,719 of emerges from cool guys 491 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,969 having neat ideas ensconced 492 00:16:14,970 --> 00:16:16,979 away from, like the political realities 493 00:16:16,980 --> 00:16:18,929 of the world is like a very Silicon 494 00:16:18,930 --> 00:16:20,789 Valley approach to technology history. 495 00:16:20,790 --> 00:16:22,889 It's kind of, you know, if we think 496 00:16:22,890 --> 00:16:24,509 of like armchair historians, these are 497 00:16:24,510 --> 00:16:25,649 maybe more the beanbag chair. 498 00:16:25,650 --> 00:16:28,049 Historians of the Xerox PARC 499 00:16:28,050 --> 00:16:29,589 say extremely specific joke. 500 00:16:29,590 --> 00:16:30,590 I appreciate that. 501 00:16:32,490 --> 00:16:34,499 There isn't a lot I mean, Silicon Valley 502 00:16:34,500 --> 00:16:36,269 tends to be remembered more as kind of an 503 00:16:36,270 --> 00:16:38,219 ideological condition from which there is 504 00:16:38,220 --> 00:16:40,319 no escape then as a geography with 505 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,719 like actual suburbs and borders 506 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:43,619 and boundaries. 507 00:16:43,620 --> 00:16:45,809 And there's not a lot in that landscape. 508 00:16:45,810 --> 00:16:47,459 As someone who's spent a fair amount of 509 00:16:47,460 --> 00:16:49,679 time there, that really reminds you that 510 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,569 it actually got its name for being a 511 00:16:51,570 --> 00:16:53,759 manufacturing region, that it was 512 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,379 actually making silicon chips. 513 00:16:55,380 --> 00:16:56,380 That got it that name. 514 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,909 This is one of the few reminders 515 00:16:59,910 --> 00:17:00,929 of that legacy. 516 00:17:02,100 --> 00:17:04,379 It's a commemorative plaque on Charleston 517 00:17:04,380 --> 00:17:06,088 Road in Palo Alto, California. 518 00:17:06,089 --> 00:17:08,399 And it's where in 1959, Fairchild 519 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:09,959 Semiconductor created the first 520 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:11,879 commercially practicable integrated 521 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:12,880 circuit. 522 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,299 This is the parking lot that those 523 00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:16,959 plaques look out onto to. 524 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,049 This is this is what a lot of 525 00:17:19,050 --> 00:17:20,050 the valley looks like. 526 00:17:21,329 --> 00:17:23,519 This is a document called a restrictive 527 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,709 covenant. It's issued by the state 528 00:17:25,710 --> 00:17:27,419 of California is Water Quality Control 529 00:17:27,420 --> 00:17:29,489 Board. And it basically lists all of 530 00:17:29,490 --> 00:17:31,769 the things that you can't do 531 00:17:31,770 --> 00:17:33,749 at the site where the first commercially 532 00:17:33,750 --> 00:17:35,459 practicable integrated circuit was 533 00:17:35,460 --> 00:17:37,949 created. You can't build a school 534 00:17:37,950 --> 00:17:40,559 or a daycare center or a hospital. 535 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,149 You can't do a lot of things. 536 00:17:42,150 --> 00:17:44,159 And the main reason that you can't do 537 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,619 that is because the groundwater 538 00:17:46,620 --> 00:17:48,659 underneath the property has been really 539 00:17:48,660 --> 00:17:51,089 deeply contaminated with solvents 540 00:17:51,090 --> 00:17:53,249 used in semiconductor manufacture. 541 00:17:55,020 --> 00:17:56,549 And it's unclear whether it was Fairchild 542 00:17:56,550 --> 00:17:57,779 or a later tenant who's largely 543 00:17:57,780 --> 00:17:58,709 responsible for this. 544 00:17:58,710 --> 00:17:59,759 But they've both kind of had to 545 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:00,959 contribute to the cleanup. 546 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:02,279 And the idea that sort of this, like 547 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,719 landmark of technology innovation 548 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,259 sits atop a bedrock of toxic waste 549 00:18:07,260 --> 00:18:09,509 in insert joke about Silicon Valley's 550 00:18:09,510 --> 00:18:11,399 toxic culture here. 551 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,919 This isn't actually very unusual, right? 552 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,139 There are twenty three 553 00:18:16,140 --> 00:18:18,179 federal Superfund cleanup sites in Santa 554 00:18:18,180 --> 00:18:20,039 Clara County, which largely makes up what 555 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:21,249 constitutes Silicon Valley. 556 00:18:21,250 --> 00:18:23,579 It's the largest concentration of 557 00:18:23,580 --> 00:18:25,949 like massive federal 558 00:18:25,950 --> 00:18:27,779 level environmental cleanup sites in the 559 00:18:27,780 --> 00:18:29,339 United States. 560 00:18:29,340 --> 00:18:31,409 19 of them, I think, are actually 561 00:18:31,410 --> 00:18:33,509 specifically tied to the 562 00:18:33,510 --> 00:18:36,749 manufacture and production of hardware. 563 00:18:36,750 --> 00:18:38,279 And there's dozens of other sites like 564 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,049 this one on Charleston Road that only 565 00:18:40,050 --> 00:18:41,849 Merritt sort of state level concern and 566 00:18:41,850 --> 00:18:43,349 cleanup. They haven't gotten there. 567 00:18:43,350 --> 00:18:45,149 Not so bad that you need to send in the 568 00:18:45,150 --> 00:18:46,559 federal government to deal with it. 569 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,129 And this is not 570 00:18:50,130 --> 00:18:52,139 you know, there's no plan for this. 571 00:18:52,140 --> 00:18:54,299 Right. And this is not necessarily 572 00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:56,069 considered computer history. 573 00:18:56,070 --> 00:18:58,049 And like when you go to a computer 574 00:18:58,050 --> 00:18:59,369 history museum is at least one in the 575 00:18:59,370 --> 00:19:01,199 United States. In my experience, if 576 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,389 there's a better one, please tell me 577 00:19:03,390 --> 00:19:04,799 the way that Silicon Valley writes its 578 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,419 own computer history is about industrial 579 00:19:06,420 --> 00:19:08,999 design and software and kind of, 580 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:10,619 you know, individual kind of unique 581 00:19:10,620 --> 00:19:11,549 objects. It's not really about 582 00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:13,739 manufacturer. It's it's weirdly not 583 00:19:13,740 --> 00:19:16,019 about scaling in the ways that everything 584 00:19:16,020 --> 00:19:18,149 you actually need to scale. 585 00:19:18,150 --> 00:19:20,279 And going into like some of 586 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,019 the archives that San Jose State 587 00:19:22,020 --> 00:19:24,269 University has for the organizations 588 00:19:24,270 --> 00:19:26,099 that were largely involved in organizing 589 00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:28,529 the mostly low income immigrant workers 590 00:19:28,530 --> 00:19:30,329 who were being exposed to all the 591 00:19:30,330 --> 00:19:32,039 chemicals in these manufacturing 592 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,109 facilities is a really 593 00:19:34,110 --> 00:19:36,119 kind of eye-opening different lens 594 00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:37,769 through which to think about what we 595 00:19:37,770 --> 00:19:39,539 think the history of technology is. 596 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,359 But it's not. Consider again, it's not 597 00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:43,679 considered computer history, like the way 598 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,449 that librarians have cataloged this at 599 00:19:45,450 --> 00:19:47,909 San Jose State is labor history, 600 00:19:47,910 --> 00:19:50,429 California history, environmental 601 00:19:50,430 --> 00:19:52,589 history. It's not history of computing. 602 00:19:52,590 --> 00:19:54,899 And I think that this chasm 603 00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:57,359 between sort of the actual experience 604 00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:59,939 of what it is to make 605 00:19:59,940 --> 00:20:02,249 a device and sort of the things 606 00:20:02,250 --> 00:20:04,409 that happen with it is an important 607 00:20:04,410 --> 00:20:06,809 one to challenge, because, 608 00:20:06,810 --> 00:20:08,519 frankly, in a world where things are just 609 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,349 kind of getting messier and dirtier, we 610 00:20:10,350 --> 00:20:12,509 can't really afford not to. 611 00:20:12,510 --> 00:20:13,949 I've been looking at this stuff for about 612 00:20:13,950 --> 00:20:15,689 a year and kind of not really known what 613 00:20:15,690 --> 00:20:17,429 to do with it. 614 00:20:17,430 --> 00:20:18,779 It's really only the last resort, really. 615 00:20:18,780 --> 00:20:20,819 Like, I actually just need to go make my 616 00:20:20,820 --> 00:20:22,319 own commemorative plaques. 617 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,659 So that's my summer spring 618 00:20:24,660 --> 00:20:26,549 project. Also putting some of the stuff 619 00:20:26,550 --> 00:20:28,829 that I've been documenting into basically 620 00:20:28,830 --> 00:20:30,899 like 1970s style 621 00:20:30,900 --> 00:20:32,429 science textbook manuals. 622 00:20:32,430 --> 00:20:33,839 I kind of like the idea of trying to 623 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:35,909 situate this history 624 00:20:35,910 --> 00:20:37,799 in the time that it was taking place, 625 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:39,899 kind of as though if you were, I don't 626 00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:41,279 know, like it's next year for training 627 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:41,699 manual. 628 00:20:41,700 --> 00:20:43,859 You pull out like the the little pamphlet 629 00:20:43,860 --> 00:20:45,269 that explains everything that Fairchild 630 00:20:45,270 --> 00:20:47,159 Semiconductor did to fuck over poor 631 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:48,329 people in South San Jose. 632 00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:51,959 I can't believe I. 633 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:53,999 It's great, I'm sorry if I talked really 634 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,009 fast, so 635 00:20:57,330 --> 00:20:58,859 I wanted to kind of leave, I guess I was 636 00:20:58,860 --> 00:20:59,849 trying to think of, like, what did I 637 00:20:59,850 --> 00:21:01,349 actually kind of get through to here? 638 00:21:01,350 --> 00:21:02,369 What were some of the main things I'm 639 00:21:02,370 --> 00:21:03,959 hoping are useful takeaways from this? 640 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:05,999 And the main ones, I guess, would just be 641 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,429 kind of that it's useful to kind of 642 00:21:08,430 --> 00:21:10,379 look at low level things and pull on sort 643 00:21:10,380 --> 00:21:12,509 of loose threads in narratives in 644 00:21:12,510 --> 00:21:14,609 history to kind 645 00:21:14,610 --> 00:21:16,709 of avoid the rather than 646 00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:18,779 kind of taking the approach of looking 647 00:21:18,780 --> 00:21:20,489 at network systems and their built 648 00:21:20,490 --> 00:21:22,109 environments as like I have to find the 649 00:21:22,110 --> 00:21:24,029 most majestic, powerful thing and I have 650 00:21:24,030 --> 00:21:26,189 to go on a go 651 00:21:26,190 --> 00:21:28,439 on this epic journey to find 652 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,419 it. Think about what's kind of already 653 00:21:30,420 --> 00:21:31,739 there in front of you. That is probably 654 00:21:31,740 --> 00:21:33,059 already very interesting. 655 00:21:33,060 --> 00:21:35,309 Right. Rather than kind of looking trying 656 00:21:35,310 --> 00:21:36,719 to convince yourself that something is 657 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:38,609 like I mean, what's one person's kind of 658 00:21:38,610 --> 00:21:40,859 invisible like system is another person's 659 00:21:40,860 --> 00:21:43,289 day to day life or another person's 660 00:21:43,290 --> 00:21:45,509 oppressive work environment. 661 00:21:45,510 --> 00:21:47,699 And yet staying kind of willing 662 00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:49,859 to be kind of small in the face of 663 00:21:49,860 --> 00:21:51,239 really large systems doesn't mean that 664 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,240 you can't challenge them. 665 00:21:53,370 --> 00:21:54,370 Thank you for your time. 666 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,249 Well, thank you so much, Ingrid, for your 667 00:22:06,250 --> 00:22:07,839 insights and your talk. 668 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,059 Now, we still have some time for Q&A. 669 00:22:10,060 --> 00:22:12,069 So if you have any questions, please move 670 00:22:12,070 --> 00:22:13,629 to the microphones that we have set up 671 00:22:13,630 --> 00:22:15,399 here in the room. 672 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:16,989 I see we have no questions from the 673 00:22:16,990 --> 00:22:19,179 Internet. So you could ask 674 00:22:19,180 --> 00:22:20,739 right away if you have anything, 675 00:22:20,740 --> 00:22:22,779 questions, comments, anything you always 676 00:22:22,780 --> 00:22:24,459 wanted to ask. Ingrid, this would be the 677 00:22:24,460 --> 00:22:25,460 time. 678 00:22:31,410 --> 00:22:33,239 Oh, yes, someone starts moving to 679 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,179 someone, start moving, you move forward, 680 00:22:35,180 --> 00:22:36,929 so please, I. 681 00:22:36,930 --> 00:22:38,109 So, uh, 682 00:22:39,650 --> 00:22:41,759 uh, do you know if any effort to try 683 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,459 to cut your small 684 00:22:44,460 --> 00:22:45,630 bits of history, 685 00:22:46,950 --> 00:22:49,159 just like we have Internet archive of 686 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:50,909 them or software and digital? 687 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:53,559 Oh, sorry. 688 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,979 Uh, shall I repeat myself, 689 00:22:55,980 --> 00:22:56,699 I kind of. 690 00:22:56,700 --> 00:22:58,409 So you were asking about different ways 691 00:22:58,410 --> 00:23:00,299 to kind of preserve this history? 692 00:23:00,300 --> 00:23:02,429 No, I was I wanted to know if 693 00:23:02,430 --> 00:23:04,949 you are aware of any effort to 694 00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:07,619 preserve bits of history. 695 00:23:07,620 --> 00:23:09,719 Well, in terms of like that, 696 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,339 like the particular like so the question 697 00:23:11,340 --> 00:23:12,929 was about different efforts to kind of 698 00:23:12,930 --> 00:23:14,909 preserve these histories that I think 699 00:23:14,910 --> 00:23:17,219 these may be referring to. 700 00:23:17,220 --> 00:23:19,379 A particular thing that I talked about 701 00:23:19,380 --> 00:23:21,519 are small 702 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:21,839 stuff. 703 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,119 But I mean, aside 704 00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:26,279 from like me and other specific 705 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,649 artists or niche academics, 706 00:23:28,650 --> 00:23:30,569 it's not there aren't a lot of like this 707 00:23:30,570 --> 00:23:32,039 is not stuff that necessarily lends 708 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,139 itself to, like massive institutions 709 00:23:34,140 --> 00:23:35,079 deciding to dove in. 710 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,139 It tends to be sort of one 711 00:23:37,140 --> 00:23:38,789 person who really, really cares about it 712 00:23:38,790 --> 00:23:40,289 or a handful of people who really, really 713 00:23:40,290 --> 00:23:41,290 care about it. 714 00:23:42,060 --> 00:23:44,819 There's Nicole Stars. 715 00:23:44,820 --> 00:23:46,919 I never pronounce your name right at NYU 716 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,769 is probably the person doing the most 717 00:23:49,770 --> 00:23:51,869 interesting, complicated work about 718 00:23:51,870 --> 00:23:54,299 the colonial legacies 719 00:23:54,300 --> 00:23:55,949 and interesting labor histories and 720 00:23:55,950 --> 00:23:56,819 submarine cables. 721 00:23:56,820 --> 00:23:59,039 Right now, I'm trying to think of other 722 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,019 good people who kind of reflect some of 723 00:24:01,020 --> 00:24:03,089 this stuff and some of I mean, in 724 00:24:03,090 --> 00:24:05,339 terms of material archives, there is 725 00:24:05,340 --> 00:24:06,989 stuff like the stuff I've been looking 726 00:24:06,990 --> 00:24:09,389 over at San Jose, but yeah, 727 00:24:09,390 --> 00:24:11,519 it's not necessarily like there's a 728 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,709 institute to save weird histories. 729 00:24:13,710 --> 00:24:15,119 There should be, but. 730 00:24:16,470 --> 00:24:16,859 Thank you. 731 00:24:16,860 --> 00:24:18,959 Next question, please, and thank you 732 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,089 for your talk, a question there, did 733 00:24:21,090 --> 00:24:23,159 you map as well the sites 734 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,259 that you described about New York because 735 00:24:25,260 --> 00:24:26,369 you were discussing your book at the 736 00:24:26,370 --> 00:24:26,729 beginning? 737 00:24:26,730 --> 00:24:28,979 Yeah, I you know, I 738 00:24:28,980 --> 00:24:31,559 initially kind of started out doing that. 739 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,749 And partly because 740 00:24:33,750 --> 00:24:34,889 I think one of the things that kind of 741 00:24:34,890 --> 00:24:36,479 got me doing it was realizing no one 742 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:37,679 would just give me a map. 743 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,779 Like turns out, most 744 00:24:39,780 --> 00:24:41,009 people would rather not tell you where 745 00:24:41,010 --> 00:24:42,960 all the fiber optic conduits are buried. 746 00:24:44,250 --> 00:24:46,379 But the reason that 747 00:24:46,380 --> 00:24:47,909 I didn't end up kind of releasing or 748 00:24:47,910 --> 00:24:49,829 producing some magnificent map is one, 749 00:24:49,830 --> 00:24:51,239 because it would always be a little 750 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:52,769 underwhelming if it's like just me 751 00:24:52,770 --> 00:24:54,929 walking around, like finding 752 00:24:54,930 --> 00:24:56,909 markers and then just like saying like, 753 00:24:56,910 --> 00:24:58,889 look, here's the thing I found. 754 00:24:58,890 --> 00:25:00,119 The other was that the alternative to 755 00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:01,469 that was like making some sort of 756 00:25:01,470 --> 00:25:03,119 crowdsourced platform where everyone's 757 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:05,189 going to, like, put in their markers. 758 00:25:05,190 --> 00:25:07,439 And that's like a community management 759 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,089 endeavor that I just personally don't 760 00:25:09,090 --> 00:25:10,559 want to take responsibility for. 761 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,899 Like I find those like abandoned 762 00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:14,969 crowdsourced maps that only have like 763 00:25:14,970 --> 00:25:16,829 a handful of pins from like maybe less 764 00:25:16,830 --> 00:25:18,329 than a month of activity to be one of the 765 00:25:18,330 --> 00:25:20,699 most heartbreaking bits of Internet 766 00:25:20,700 --> 00:25:22,469 litter. And I just didn't really want to 767 00:25:22,470 --> 00:25:24,149 make more than you can make a game of 768 00:25:24,150 --> 00:25:25,169 that kind of stuff. 769 00:25:25,170 --> 00:25:26,939 I mean, there's there's a guy like an 770 00:25:26,940 --> 00:25:28,589 awesome guy who's been working on a 771 00:25:28,590 --> 00:25:31,169 project that he's been calling Cloud. 772 00:25:31,170 --> 00:25:32,669 And I think it's just called like the new 773 00:25:32,670 --> 00:25:34,499 Cloud Atlas. And it's you know, I think 774 00:25:34,500 --> 00:25:35,549 he's doing OK with it. 775 00:25:35,550 --> 00:25:37,409 But I was like, great, I don't have to 776 00:25:37,410 --> 00:25:38,399 manage this. 777 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:39,029 Great. 778 00:25:39,030 --> 00:25:41,159 That's the spirit of the real artist, 779 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,349 of course, to work 780 00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:44,549 for the others. 781 00:25:44,550 --> 00:25:45,779 Thank you. Next question, please. 782 00:25:48,090 --> 00:25:50,249 Oh, not 783 00:25:50,250 --> 00:25:52,379 too long ago, in a city not far 784 00:25:52,380 --> 00:25:55,169 from here, there were 785 00:25:55,170 --> 00:25:56,490 a kind of 786 00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,819 there was this cover, this secret 787 00:25:59,820 --> 00:26:02,669 infrastructure of hidden cables 788 00:26:02,670 --> 00:26:05,039 that at the time 789 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,069 now nobody knew 790 00:26:08,070 --> 00:26:09,589 what it was about. 791 00:26:09,590 --> 00:26:11,729 It was speculated that 792 00:26:11,730 --> 00:26:14,129 it was something related 793 00:26:14,130 --> 00:26:16,349 to spy agencies trying to 794 00:26:18,210 --> 00:26:20,339 use secret communication channels. 795 00:26:20,340 --> 00:26:21,450 Do you? 796 00:26:24,150 --> 00:26:26,129 Had you interest in something like that 797 00:26:26,130 --> 00:26:28,300 or something you it you know. 798 00:26:29,730 --> 00:26:31,889 So the question I have to repeat, 799 00:26:31,890 --> 00:26:33,959 the question is very particular. 800 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,459 I think the people on the screen should 801 00:26:35,460 --> 00:26:36,460 have understood. 802 00:26:37,230 --> 00:26:39,269 I just remember reading the things you 803 00:26:39,270 --> 00:26:40,619 should do, but so 804 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,329 that stuff like so that generally 805 00:26:45,330 --> 00:26:48,059 I do think that stuff is interesting. 806 00:26:48,060 --> 00:26:50,129 But the like scene of people who work 807 00:26:50,130 --> 00:26:51,419 on that stuff is overrun with 808 00:26:51,420 --> 00:26:53,189 personalities that I just don't really 809 00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:54,420 want to interact with. 810 00:26:57,750 --> 00:26:59,219 That's like all I really have to say 811 00:26:59,220 --> 00:27:00,059 about it. 812 00:27:00,060 --> 00:27:01,049 Oh, thank you. 813 00:27:01,050 --> 00:27:02,099 Next, we have a question from the 814 00:27:02,100 --> 00:27:03,100 Internet. 815 00:27:04,590 --> 00:27:06,659 The Internet wants to know, did 816 00:27:06,660 --> 00:27:08,999 you meet the actual capabilities 817 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,000 or geographers? 818 00:27:11,110 --> 00:27:12,110 What's the question? 819 00:27:13,390 --> 00:27:15,429 Did you meet the actual cable bidders or 820 00:27:15,430 --> 00:27:16,749 geographers? 821 00:27:16,750 --> 00:27:19,359 I have so a lot of my interactions 822 00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:21,249 were more with the people actually laying 823 00:27:21,250 --> 00:27:23,019 the cable like a lot of my work was, more 824 00:27:23,020 --> 00:27:25,479 with talking to people whose 825 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:26,949 job is actually getting that stuff kind 826 00:27:26,950 --> 00:27:28,959 of installed in the streets. 827 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,699 Fiber optic cable manufacturer is super 828 00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:32,469 interesting, and I would love to go 829 00:27:32,470 --> 00:27:34,359 convince someone to let me go on a tour 830 00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:35,349 of a facility. 831 00:27:35,350 --> 00:27:37,449 It hasn't been as high on the to do list 832 00:27:37,450 --> 00:27:38,450 just yet. 833 00:27:39,580 --> 00:27:41,169 Thank you. Next question, the guy here on 834 00:27:41,170 --> 00:27:42,519 the first mike in the blue sweater. 835 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:43,319 Well, thank you, Mike. 836 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:44,739 My question is actually about the 837 00:27:44,740 --> 00:27:46,389 background picture without any special 838 00:27:46,390 --> 00:27:47,649 significance, right? Yeah. 839 00:27:47,650 --> 00:27:49,249 So I should have explained it. 840 00:27:49,250 --> 00:27:52,179 So this is HSW one 841 00:27:52,180 --> 00:27:53,199 or what's left of it? 842 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,569 It's the coaxial remnants 843 00:27:55,570 --> 00:27:57,489 of a classical submarine cable sticking 844 00:27:57,490 --> 00:27:59,499 out of a sea wall in rural Northern 845 00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:01,869 California in a town called Manchester, 846 00:28:01,870 --> 00:28:03,429 California. 847 00:28:03,430 --> 00:28:05,709 It's when we talk about who who goes 848 00:28:05,710 --> 00:28:07,299 to see the submarine cable landing sites 849 00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:09,129 for fun. This is one that I went to go 850 00:28:09,130 --> 00:28:10,059 see for fun. 851 00:28:10,060 --> 00:28:12,459 It's actually a really interesting area 852 00:28:12,460 --> 00:28:14,139 and kind of an interesting illustration 853 00:28:14,140 --> 00:28:16,119 of stories about submarine cables that 854 00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:18,069 kind of get left out of kind of heroic 855 00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:20,199 infrastructure stories because 856 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,359 this town has like this massive glut 857 00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:23,769 of fiber running through it. 858 00:28:23,770 --> 00:28:26,049 And since 859 00:28:26,050 --> 00:28:27,369 as long as anyone can remember, they've 860 00:28:27,370 --> 00:28:29,499 all had shit Internet access and no 861 00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:30,699 one can get decent bandwidth. 862 00:28:30,700 --> 00:28:32,679 And it's because AT&T doesn't really want 863 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,179 to share. 864 00:28:34,180 --> 00:28:36,069 And there's sort of this really blatant 865 00:28:36,070 --> 00:28:37,419 disparity there. 866 00:28:37,420 --> 00:28:38,649 That's a really I don't know. 867 00:28:38,650 --> 00:28:39,650 It's a great place. 868 00:28:40,420 --> 00:28:42,159 Thank you. I like to make a comment on 869 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,849 your discussion on the infrastructure, 870 00:28:43,850 --> 00:28:45,519 the Open Street. My project is always 871 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,159 interested in recording 872 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,379 information, as you've described. 873 00:28:50,380 --> 00:28:52,479 I personally have been using it, but I 874 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,579 would suspect that fiber 875 00:28:54,580 --> 00:28:55,779 optic cables are something that they're 876 00:28:55,780 --> 00:28:57,129 interested in. 877 00:28:57,130 --> 00:28:59,409 The person who is working on that 878 00:28:59,410 --> 00:29:01,299 crowdsourcing platform is like a longtime 879 00:29:01,300 --> 00:29:03,369 open street map contributor. 880 00:29:03,370 --> 00:29:05,349 And I think that that's kind of his 881 00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:06,350 mental model behind it. 882 00:29:07,610 --> 00:29:09,409 Next question, please. 883 00:29:09,410 --> 00:29:11,449 This is something between a comment and a 884 00:29:11,450 --> 00:29:13,249 question, I guess, please be a little 885 00:29:13,250 --> 00:29:14,439 closer to the mic. 886 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,859 You love those. 887 00:29:16,860 --> 00:29:18,979 You were referring to the Silicon 888 00:29:18,980 --> 00:29:21,499 Valley engineering mindset. 889 00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:23,629 And I guess we we all find 890 00:29:23,630 --> 00:29:24,920 this somewhat questionable. 891 00:29:26,330 --> 00:29:28,339 But I actually found it 892 00:29:29,690 --> 00:29:32,149 somewhat more interesting looking 893 00:29:32,150 --> 00:29:34,879 into the history of engineering. 894 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,339 And this is then going back to 895 00:29:37,340 --> 00:29:39,499 a very Suess story about 896 00:29:39,500 --> 00:29:41,929 engineering when 897 00:29:41,930 --> 00:29:44,509 these crazy guys 898 00:29:44,510 --> 00:29:46,489 went on building all these 899 00:29:48,110 --> 00:29:50,239 all different kinds of infrastructure 900 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,549 in the Swiss mountains when they built 901 00:29:52,550 --> 00:29:54,679 railways up on mountains 902 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,719 that we today actually find quite 903 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,479 beautiful. So this crazy mindset 904 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,849 of the engineer may be 905 00:30:01,850 --> 00:30:04,369 you seeing something of a renaissance. 906 00:30:04,370 --> 00:30:06,439 How do you feel about this way of 907 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:07,609 looking at the engineer? 908 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:09,979 Hmm. 909 00:30:09,980 --> 00:30:11,629 I'm trying to think about how to answer 910 00:30:11,630 --> 00:30:13,639 this in a context of, like, the 911 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,319 particular thing I was talking about, 912 00:30:16,790 --> 00:30:18,289 because I think you're right. 913 00:30:18,290 --> 00:30:19,699 This history doesn't like this. 914 00:30:19,700 --> 00:30:21,829 Like it doesn't start with the value 915 00:30:21,830 --> 00:30:24,019 persay. It just sort of got most 916 00:30:24,020 --> 00:30:25,969 associated with the value for a few 917 00:30:25,970 --> 00:30:26,970 reasons. 918 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,089 So finally, just just describing it is 919 00:30:29,090 --> 00:30:30,090 the. 920 00:30:32,430 --> 00:30:34,739 So in terms of like the resurgence 921 00:30:34,740 --> 00:30:37,289 of engineer, as just to clarify, 922 00:30:37,290 --> 00:30:39,389 do you mean kind of like the value 923 00:30:39,390 --> 00:30:41,909 or like the importance of an engineering 924 00:30:41,910 --> 00:30:44,279 mindset or was 925 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:45,749 I was thinking about the engineering 926 00:30:45,750 --> 00:30:47,969 mindset, such as 927 00:30:47,970 --> 00:30:48,899 a science journalist. 928 00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:50,459 I'm especially interested in the 929 00:30:50,460 --> 00:30:52,139 difference between a scientist and 930 00:30:52,140 --> 00:30:53,219 engineer. Right. 931 00:30:53,220 --> 00:30:55,409 So to me, it feels like there is 932 00:30:55,410 --> 00:30:57,659 something like a way 933 00:30:57,660 --> 00:31:00,389 the engineer sees the world 934 00:31:00,390 --> 00:31:01,919 in deference to the science. 935 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:03,929 Yeah, I think that's that's true. 936 00:31:03,930 --> 00:31:06,299 I think what's kind of interesting 937 00:31:06,300 --> 00:31:08,399 about the ways in which 938 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,499 software engineering has kind of 939 00:31:10,500 --> 00:31:13,109 become a very dominant field 940 00:31:13,110 --> 00:31:14,819 as opposed to other kinds of engineering 941 00:31:14,820 --> 00:31:16,649 is like software engineering has a lot of 942 00:31:16,650 --> 00:31:18,899 catchup to do in terms of ethics, 943 00:31:18,900 --> 00:31:19,889 education. 944 00:31:19,890 --> 00:31:20,910 Right. Like 945 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,479 ethics and engineering generally has kind 946 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:25,649 of historically and civil engineering 947 00:31:25,650 --> 00:31:27,389 kind of means like don't build a bridge 948 00:31:27,390 --> 00:31:29,519 that collapses and a lot 949 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,129 of what exists for kind of talking about 950 00:31:32,130 --> 00:31:34,799 ethical concerns in building 951 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,519 computational systems. 952 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,709 Does it have this kind of massive, like 953 00:31:38,710 --> 00:31:40,799 networked affects language? 954 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:42,959 So I think that there is 955 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,029 a value to like what engineers 956 00:31:45,030 --> 00:31:46,769 do and can contribute to society. 957 00:31:46,770 --> 00:31:47,770 But how it 958 00:31:49,260 --> 00:31:51,329 how it manifests can be, I think is 959 00:31:51,330 --> 00:31:53,489 partly shaped by by 960 00:31:53,490 --> 00:31:55,319 the ability to kind of have an ethical, 961 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,119 like kind of our moral compass while 962 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:58,120 you're doing it. 963 00:31:58,950 --> 00:31:59,879 Thank you so much. 964 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:01,739 So we have run out of questions, which is 965 00:32:01,740 --> 00:32:03,539 convenient because we have also run out 966 00:32:03,540 --> 00:32:05,699 of time. So please, another round of 967 00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:06,719 applause for Ingrid. 968 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:07,720 Thank you so much.