0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Dear viewer, these subtitles were generated by a machine via the service Trint and therefore are (very) buggy. If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/217 Thanks! 1 00:00:14,710 --> 00:00:16,899 Thank you. Can you hear me OK? 2 00:00:16,900 --> 00:00:17,919 OK. 3 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,499 OK. So thanks for having me here today. 4 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:22,359 Again, my name is Michael Brennan. 5 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:22,749 I work for an 6 00:00:22,750 --> 00:00:24,699 organization called Second Muse. 7 00:00:24,700 --> 00:00:26,379 And the title of my talk today is called 8 00:00:26,380 --> 00:00:27,399 Building Internet 9 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:27,729 Freedom 10 00:00:27,730 --> 00:00:29,679 Tools for real people. 11 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,109 Now I've spoken at Congress 12 00:00:32,110 --> 00:00:34,299 a few times before, but about more 13 00:00:34,300 --> 00:00:35,829 specific topic based on my 14 00:00:35,830 --> 00:00:37,989 authorship recognition research on how 15 00:00:37,990 --> 00:00:40,089 authorship recognition can be 16 00:00:40,090 --> 00:00:41,379 an important issue for privacy and 17 00:00:41,380 --> 00:00:43,479 security. And I did my academic research 18 00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:44,199 around that. 19 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,899 And now that I am done with academia, 20 00:00:46,900 --> 00:00:48,189 I decided to take. 21 00:00:48,190 --> 00:00:49,689 I wanted to take kind of some of the work 22 00:00:49,690 --> 00:00:51,639 that I was doing there and start looking 23 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,429 at how it can be applied more broadly. 24 00:00:54,430 --> 00:00:56,889 How can we build more effective 25 00:00:56,890 --> 00:00:59,019 tools that can be used by individuals 26 00:00:59,020 --> 00:01:01,179 all around the world trying to 27 00:01:01,180 --> 00:01:01,959 circumvent 28 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,479 censorship surveillance, communicate 29 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:06,098 safely, communicate anonymously? 30 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:08,949 So I want to start by telling a little 31 00:01:08,950 --> 00:01:10,149 story, 32 00:01:10,150 --> 00:01:12,849 and that's about my time last December 33 00:01:12,850 --> 00:01:14,979 in Burma. I had the really 34 00:01:14,980 --> 00:01:16,119 amazing privilege, and I 35 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,189 and I consider it a privilege, 36 00:01:18,190 --> 00:01:19,329 and I thank 37 00:01:19,330 --> 00:01:21,429 the folks that brought me there to go to 38 00:01:21,430 --> 00:01:23,499 Burma with an organization called Radio 39 00:01:23,500 --> 00:01:24,639 Free Asia. 40 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:25,089 Radio Free 41 00:01:25,090 --> 00:01:27,099 Asia is a nonprofit based in the United 42 00:01:27,100 --> 00:01:29,229 States that promotes free press 43 00:01:29,230 --> 00:01:31,419 and free speech in countries 44 00:01:31,420 --> 00:01:31,659 in 45 00:01:31,660 --> 00:01:33,429 Asia, where those things are not 46 00:01:33,430 --> 00:01:35,349 necessarily a given right. 47 00:01:35,350 --> 00:01:37,449 And in our time there, I was 48 00:01:37,450 --> 00:01:39,519 there with a number of technologists and 49 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,739 diplomats and other folks. 50 00:01:41,740 --> 00:01:43,899 We tried to spend 51 00:01:43,900 --> 00:01:46,539 some time understanding the state of 52 00:01:46,540 --> 00:01:49,029 information and communication technology 53 00:01:49,030 --> 00:01:50,979 infrastructure throughout the country. 54 00:01:50,980 --> 00:01:53,679 The state of censorship in the country. 55 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,809 The state of access to the 56 00:01:55,810 --> 00:01:57,099 internet and 57 00:01:58,460 --> 00:02:00,159 give you a sense. And now the country. 58 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:01,719 Burma is changing a lot right now, and 59 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:03,219 this was a year ago. So I'm not going to 60 00:02:03,220 --> 00:02:04,609 suggest that everything is the same now 61 00:02:04,610 --> 00:02:06,009 as it was a year ago. 62 00:02:06,010 --> 00:02:07,779 But for the purpose of this story, I 63 00:02:07,780 --> 00:02:07,959 think 64 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,569 you can get a good sense of what 65 00:02:10,570 --> 00:02:12,249 all this stuff was by looking at this 66 00:02:12,250 --> 00:02:13,329 photo. 67 00:02:13,330 --> 00:02:13,929 This is a photo 68 00:02:13,930 --> 00:02:17,259 of a giant mural in the Information 69 00:02:17,260 --> 00:02:20,229 Ministry of the Burmese government. 70 00:02:20,230 --> 00:02:22,479 I don't want to try and take away 71 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,089 from it by trying to explain it too much. 72 00:02:25,090 --> 00:02:27,129 But yet upon teleport, which is the 73 00:02:27,130 --> 00:02:28,539 building in the background, is a state 74 00:02:28,540 --> 00:02:29,919 owned telecom. 75 00:02:29,920 --> 00:02:31,539 And you can see the 76 00:02:31,540 --> 00:02:34,119 mixture of emotions and craziness. 77 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,549 I think that goes on just and this is 78 00:02:36,550 --> 00:02:38,679 a giant mural that goes on a huge 79 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:40,509 wall in the information ministry. 80 00:02:40,510 --> 00:02:43,209 So here are some facts about Burma 81 00:02:43,210 --> 00:02:44,649 in December of 2012. 82 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,219 Number one, if you wanted a SIM card 83 00:02:48,220 --> 00:02:50,229 for your phone to access a mobile data 84 00:02:50,230 --> 00:02:53,049 plan, you needed an official ID. 85 00:02:53,050 --> 00:02:55,509 You need the two passport photos, 86 00:02:55,510 --> 00:02:56,529 and you had to fill out a whole bunch of 87 00:02:56,530 --> 00:02:56,979 paperwork 88 00:02:56,980 --> 00:02:58,389 and submit it to the government to 89 00:02:58,390 --> 00:03:00,009 get approved by a plan. 90 00:03:00,010 --> 00:03:01,309 Oh, and the plan cost 91 00:03:01,310 --> 00:03:03,399 $250, which is multiple times 92 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,229 the monthly income of your average 93 00:03:05,230 --> 00:03:06,230 Burmese family. 94 00:03:07,270 --> 00:03:08,649 If you wanted to access the Internet and 95 00:03:08,650 --> 00:03:10,989 Internet Cafe, the rules 96 00:03:10,990 --> 00:03:12,759 around that included 97 00:03:14,380 --> 00:03:15,309 the cafe had 98 00:03:15,310 --> 00:03:17,949 to record the identities of all users, 99 00:03:17,950 --> 00:03:19,659 and it takes screenshots of every screen, 100 00:03:19,660 --> 00:03:21,249 every five minutes. 101 00:03:21,250 --> 00:03:23,409 And it restricted access 102 00:03:23,410 --> 00:03:25,629 to political websites. 103 00:03:25,630 --> 00:03:27,759 And finally, a law that 104 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:29,229 was still on the books, though perhaps 105 00:03:29,230 --> 00:03:31,509 not being enforced at this time, was 106 00:03:31,510 --> 00:03:33,849 that sending or receiving material 107 00:03:33,850 --> 00:03:35,619 over the internet that the government 108 00:03:35,620 --> 00:03:37,689 found offensive was 109 00:03:37,690 --> 00:03:39,279 punishable by long jail terms? 110 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:39,939 And we actually met 111 00:03:39,940 --> 00:03:42,279 an activist blogger who spent four 112 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,469 served four years of a 20 year jail term 113 00:03:44,470 --> 00:03:47,139 for receiving an email with a cartoon 114 00:03:47,140 --> 00:03:48,879 that offended the government, receiving 115 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:49,880 an email not sending. 116 00:03:50,740 --> 00:03:52,809 So all this in 117 00:03:52,810 --> 00:03:54,939 a place where at the same time, 118 00:03:54,940 --> 00:03:56,349 access to technology 119 00:03:56,350 --> 00:03:58,119 was increasing dramatically and very, 120 00:03:58,120 --> 00:03:59,709 very, very fast. 121 00:03:59,710 --> 00:04:01,779 This is a small town outside 122 00:04:01,780 --> 00:04:03,429 of the capital, Naypyitaw. 123 00:04:03,430 --> 00:04:04,029 It's a market, 124 00:04:04,030 --> 00:04:06,099 and we were walking around the market and 125 00:04:06,100 --> 00:04:08,259 found folks all over the place that had 126 00:04:08,260 --> 00:04:09,999 smartphones, basic smartphones like this 127 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,889 one to access the internet. 128 00:04:11,890 --> 00:04:14,049 So what we were asking people 129 00:04:14,050 --> 00:04:16,179 the whole time we were there is when 130 00:04:16,180 --> 00:04:18,219 we go back to the United States, what 131 00:04:18,220 --> 00:04:20,109 message do you want us to convey? 132 00:04:20,110 --> 00:04:22,329 What do you want us to tell 133 00:04:22,330 --> 00:04:23,469 people back in those states? 134 00:04:23,470 --> 00:04:25,599 What do you want us tell politicians 135 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,069 companies things like that? 136 00:04:27,070 --> 00:04:29,169 And we thought because of all of these 137 00:04:29,170 --> 00:04:30,170 crazy things, 138 00:04:31,510 --> 00:04:32,679 there's there's probably going to be some 139 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:33,879 important things people want to come 140 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:35,139 back. But you know what? 141 00:04:35,140 --> 00:04:37,300 The most common response we got was 142 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,419 when will the Myanmar language, which is 143 00:04:40,420 --> 00:04:42,309 the language of Burma, be available in 144 00:04:42,310 --> 00:04:43,310 Microsoft Office? 145 00:04:44,410 --> 00:04:46,389 That was the most common thing we heard. 146 00:04:46,390 --> 00:04:48,669 And personally, I never I never 147 00:04:48,670 --> 00:04:49,569 would have thought that would have been 148 00:04:49,570 --> 00:04:50,859 the number one request. 149 00:04:50,860 --> 00:04:51,860 Never would have thought it. 150 00:04:52,780 --> 00:04:54,069 And perhaps that's due to my 151 00:04:54,070 --> 00:04:55,269 own personal bias 152 00:04:55,270 --> 00:04:56,739 or my own lack of experience. 153 00:04:56,740 --> 00:04:58,899 But since I went there, I've been 154 00:04:58,900 --> 00:05:00,399 sharing the story with a lot of folks, 155 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:01,929 especially folks in the technology 156 00:05:01,930 --> 00:05:03,999 community and people building 157 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:04,809 anti-censorship 158 00:05:04,810 --> 00:05:06,339 tools and circumvention tools. 159 00:05:06,340 --> 00:05:08,479 And they're they're surprised. 160 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:09,549 They were surprised, much 161 00:05:09,550 --> 00:05:10,899 like I was. 162 00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:12,699 And that made me think. 163 00:05:12,700 --> 00:05:14,979 If a response like this is so 164 00:05:14,980 --> 00:05:16,479 surprising. 165 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:17,769 What does that mean for how 166 00:05:17,770 --> 00:05:19,809 we approach and understand the needs of 167 00:05:19,810 --> 00:05:21,759 users around the world when we're trying 168 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:21,849 to 169 00:05:21,850 --> 00:05:24,279 build tools to help them, right? 170 00:05:24,280 --> 00:05:26,529 It really made me think a lot about that. 171 00:05:26,530 --> 00:05:27,849 And by the way, if you want to know more 172 00:05:27,850 --> 00:05:29,289 about our trip there, you can go to this 173 00:05:29,290 --> 00:05:29,799 link 174 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:31,209 and read the full report. 175 00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:35,409 So what I want to talk about today 176 00:05:35,410 --> 00:05:37,449 is a project that we're doing called 177 00:05:38,710 --> 00:05:40,929 a user focused approach to guiding 178 00:05:40,930 --> 00:05:42,999 the development and impact 179 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:44,139 of internet freedom tools. 180 00:05:47,860 --> 00:05:49,659 I want to share briefly a little bit more 181 00:05:49,660 --> 00:05:51,789 about who the Open Technology Fund is, 182 00:05:51,790 --> 00:05:53,289 which is a radio free Asia program 183 00:05:53,290 --> 00:05:54,819 funding this work. 184 00:05:54,820 --> 00:05:56,529 Talk a little bit more about second, use 185 00:05:56,530 --> 00:05:58,149 my organization and why we're involved. 186 00:05:59,350 --> 00:06:00,129 I want to explain our 187 00:06:00,130 --> 00:06:01,779 process and share some of the emerging 188 00:06:01,780 --> 00:06:03,369 learnings because I'm going to say this 189 00:06:03,370 --> 00:06:04,449 multiple times. 190 00:06:04,450 --> 00:06:05,979 We are in the early stages of this 191 00:06:05,980 --> 00:06:07,569 project. This is not a finished project. 192 00:06:07,570 --> 00:06:09,220 This is a this is a progress talk 193 00:06:10,810 --> 00:06:13,029 and I want to invite you to participate 194 00:06:13,030 --> 00:06:13,899 because 195 00:06:13,900 --> 00:06:14,769 the main reason I'm here 196 00:06:14,770 --> 00:06:16,449 talking to all of you today is because we 197 00:06:16,450 --> 00:06:16,749 want to 198 00:06:16,750 --> 00:06:18,849 solicit more feedback from others 199 00:06:18,850 --> 00:06:20,979 about what we're learning so far and 200 00:06:20,980 --> 00:06:21,369 how 201 00:06:21,370 --> 00:06:23,019 we can do something that is meaningful 202 00:06:23,020 --> 00:06:24,969 and impactful to the space and additive 203 00:06:24,970 --> 00:06:26,259 to it, rather 204 00:06:26,260 --> 00:06:28,539 than is yet another burden or another 205 00:06:28,540 --> 00:06:30,279 point of view that's just thrown in the 206 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:31,280 mix. 207 00:06:32,410 --> 00:06:33,649 So how are internet freedom tools 208 00:06:33,650 --> 00:06:34,959 developed? There's a couple of approaches 209 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:36,439 I want to talk about, 210 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,169 and one approaches this. 211 00:06:38,170 --> 00:06:40,749 I'm a developer and I see a technical 212 00:06:40,750 --> 00:06:41,019 threat 213 00:06:41,020 --> 00:06:42,279 to privacy or security. 214 00:06:43,630 --> 00:06:45,189 I'm going to develop a tool to address 215 00:06:45,190 --> 00:06:47,289 this threat, and others 216 00:06:47,290 --> 00:06:49,599 who have the same threat can then adopt 217 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,549 this tool and use it as well. 218 00:06:51,550 --> 00:06:53,409 Now, this is not 219 00:06:53,410 --> 00:06:55,089 this approach is not wrong. 220 00:06:55,090 --> 00:06:56,739 I think this is a common approach. 221 00:06:56,740 --> 00:06:59,019 I think there's good reasons for 222 00:06:59,020 --> 00:06:59,529 it. 223 00:06:59,530 --> 00:07:01,539 But I do think oftentimes it can be 224 00:07:01,540 --> 00:07:02,540 incomplete. 225 00:07:03,460 --> 00:07:05,469 Here's another approach. 226 00:07:05,470 --> 00:07:07,299 I'm a developer or I'm a designer, 227 00:07:07,300 --> 00:07:09,549 and I've studied and assessed the privacy 228 00:07:09,550 --> 00:07:12,489 and security needs over user community. 229 00:07:12,490 --> 00:07:13,929 I've built a tool for the 230 00:07:13,930 --> 00:07:15,429 community which addresses those 231 00:07:15,430 --> 00:07:17,559 needs. Specifically, I will 232 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,049 examine other communities and translate 233 00:07:20,050 --> 00:07:21,009 this tool if they 234 00:07:21,010 --> 00:07:23,499 have similar privacy and security needs. 235 00:07:23,500 --> 00:07:24,549 Now that sounds nice. 236 00:07:24,550 --> 00:07:25,779 This is kind of maybe the other end of 237 00:07:25,780 --> 00:07:27,939 the spectrum, but that doesn't sound very 238 00:07:27,940 --> 00:07:30,099 realistic to me that every time 239 00:07:30,100 --> 00:07:31,179 we're going to build a tool, we're going 240 00:07:31,180 --> 00:07:32,889 to do this big, comprehensive study and 241 00:07:32,890 --> 00:07:34,379 understand everything that's going on and 242 00:07:34,380 --> 00:07:36,369 then design a tool for that. 243 00:07:36,370 --> 00:07:37,809 But I think there's value to both 244 00:07:37,810 --> 00:07:40,149 approaches, and what 245 00:07:40,150 --> 00:07:40,449 I want to 246 00:07:40,450 --> 00:07:42,279 know is, are we that we can resolve these 247 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:43,389 approaches? 248 00:07:43,390 --> 00:07:44,679 Is there a way that we can resolve the 249 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:45,609 technical approach 250 00:07:45,610 --> 00:07:47,619 with the human centered approach 251 00:07:47,620 --> 00:07:49,689 and kind 252 00:07:49,690 --> 00:07:51,789 of bring them both to bear in 253 00:07:51,790 --> 00:07:52,790 this space? 254 00:07:53,950 --> 00:07:56,079 What we're finding is that so this this 255 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:57,819 this approach of looking at kind of both 256 00:07:57,820 --> 00:07:59,439 sides of the coin is something that's 257 00:07:59,440 --> 00:07:59,949 seen a lot of 258 00:07:59,950 --> 00:08:01,569 success in all kinds of industries, in 259 00:08:01,570 --> 00:08:02,949 all other sectors. But what we're finding 260 00:08:02,950 --> 00:08:04,239 in this space is that 261 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:05,769 if you are a developer, you are a 262 00:08:05,770 --> 00:08:08,559 designer of tools and you want to embrace 263 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,019 more user centric approaches 264 00:08:11,020 --> 00:08:12,369 to developing your tool. 265 00:08:12,370 --> 00:08:13,689 There's not a whole lot of support out 266 00:08:13,690 --> 00:08:14,649 there for you. 267 00:08:14,650 --> 00:08:16,359 There's nothing out there that we've been 268 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:16,509 able 269 00:08:16,510 --> 00:08:18,819 to find that says this is how you apply 270 00:08:18,820 --> 00:08:19,599 a human centered 271 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:20,889 design approach 272 00:08:20,890 --> 00:08:23,349 to building an internet freedom tool 273 00:08:23,350 --> 00:08:25,329 toward building a privacy tool. 274 00:08:25,330 --> 00:08:27,969 And we want to remedy this, hopefully by 275 00:08:27,970 --> 00:08:29,979 building some of that support so that 276 00:08:29,980 --> 00:08:31,899 more of that can be ingested into the 277 00:08:31,900 --> 00:08:33,699 development process of many tools. 278 00:08:36,010 --> 00:08:37,389 So before I go any further, I've already 279 00:08:37,390 --> 00:08:39,729 used a bunch of phrases that 280 00:08:39,730 --> 00:08:40,779 I want to define 281 00:08:40,780 --> 00:08:42,369 formally before we go forward. 282 00:08:42,370 --> 00:08:42,849 And I'm 283 00:08:42,850 --> 00:08:45,249 defining these. Not to say that these are 284 00:08:45,250 --> 00:08:47,319 the definitions, but that these are 285 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:48,909 the definitions we've chosen to use 286 00:08:48,910 --> 00:08:49,239 for this 287 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:50,649 work so that when I'm talking about these 288 00:08:50,650 --> 00:08:51,849 things, you know that what I mean by 289 00:08:51,850 --> 00:08:52,839 them. 290 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:53,409 So the first 291 00:08:53,410 --> 00:08:54,819 term is internet freedom to what I've 292 00:08:54,820 --> 00:08:55,820 thrown this around a bunch. 293 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:58,419 The definition of the internet 294 00:08:58,420 --> 00:09:00,039 freedom tool actually defined by the 295 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:01,209 funder of this work, the Open 296 00:09:01,210 --> 00:09:03,279 Technology Fund, are technologies 297 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:04,149 that circumvent 298 00:09:04,150 --> 00:09:05,829 repressive censorship and 299 00:09:05,830 --> 00:09:08,469 surveillance or increase communication, 300 00:09:08,470 --> 00:09:09,879 access and safety. 301 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:11,739 Now there's many tools that fit this 302 00:09:11,740 --> 00:09:13,449 bill, whether you consider 303 00:09:13,450 --> 00:09:14,769 them an internet freedom to or not. 304 00:09:14,770 --> 00:09:16,299 For the purposes of this work, 305 00:09:16,300 --> 00:09:17,739 if they fit, the bill will consider them 306 00:09:17,740 --> 00:09:17,889 as 307 00:09:17,890 --> 00:09:19,059 an internet freedom tool 308 00:09:19,060 --> 00:09:19,959 that might be Tor. 309 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:21,339 It might be otbr, 310 00:09:21,340 --> 00:09:22,329 might be read, phone or 311 00:09:22,330 --> 00:09:23,559 cryptoquant or p-gp. 312 00:09:25,150 --> 00:09:27,289 When we talk about user communities, 313 00:09:27,290 --> 00:09:29,469 that can mean a lot of things in this 314 00:09:29,470 --> 00:09:31,569 work. We mean it as a group 315 00:09:31,570 --> 00:09:31,719 of 316 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:33,939 users or potential users 317 00:09:33,940 --> 00:09:34,809 of internet freedom 318 00:09:34,810 --> 00:09:36,909 tools that can be defined by 319 00:09:36,910 --> 00:09:39,189 geography, culture, 320 00:09:39,190 --> 00:09:41,109 share experiences or a shared set of 321 00:09:41,110 --> 00:09:42,110 challenges. 322 00:09:43,060 --> 00:09:44,379 And then also be throwing 323 00:09:44,380 --> 00:09:45,999 around a couple of terms, a bunch which 324 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:47,479 I'll go into more detail about later. 325 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:47,829 And one of 326 00:09:47,830 --> 00:09:48,909 those is ethnography 327 00:09:50,380 --> 00:09:52,419 and non-free is the study of culture and 328 00:09:52,420 --> 00:09:53,739 human motivation through 329 00:09:53,740 --> 00:09:55,149 qualitative research. 330 00:09:55,150 --> 00:09:56,499 Now, the difference between qualitative 331 00:09:56,500 --> 00:09:58,899 research and quantitative research very 332 00:09:58,900 --> 00:10:00,999 generally is that qualitative research 333 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,489 is essentially more subjective, 334 00:10:03,490 --> 00:10:05,349 which has a bunch of benefits and 335 00:10:05,350 --> 00:10:06,489 also some drawbacks. 336 00:10:06,490 --> 00:10:08,019 With subjective research, you can really 337 00:10:08,020 --> 00:10:08,289 get 338 00:10:08,290 --> 00:10:11,469 some amazingly deep insights. 339 00:10:11,470 --> 00:10:12,879 But you also run the risk of bias and a 340 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:13,880 lot of ways. 341 00:10:14,590 --> 00:10:16,749 And then all ethnography 342 00:10:16,750 --> 00:10:17,229 is captured 343 00:10:17,230 --> 00:10:18,429 under a broad umbrella of something 344 00:10:18,430 --> 00:10:19,839 called human centered design. 345 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:21,339 And human centered design is really the 346 00:10:21,340 --> 00:10:23,499 belief that if you take an empathy 347 00:10:23,500 --> 00:10:25,329 based approach to understanding the 348 00:10:25,330 --> 00:10:27,849 motivations and the goals 349 00:10:27,850 --> 00:10:28,869 of people, you 350 00:10:28,870 --> 00:10:30,219 can do a better job of understanding 351 00:10:30,220 --> 00:10:31,220 their needs. 352 00:10:33,370 --> 00:10:34,370 So, 353 00:10:35,790 --> 00:10:37,119 so, so 354 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:38,409 through this project, what we're trying 355 00:10:38,410 --> 00:10:39,159 to do 356 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:40,689 is number one, understand the 357 00:10:40,690 --> 00:10:41,799 internet freedom tool development 358 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,229 process, understand the context 359 00:10:44,230 --> 00:10:45,129 under which users 360 00:10:45,130 --> 00:10:47,559 employ those tools 361 00:10:47,560 --> 00:10:49,449 and understand how the needs of 362 00:10:49,450 --> 00:10:51,639 users can better inform the creation 363 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:52,389 and deployment of 364 00:10:52,390 --> 00:10:53,859 these tools. 365 00:10:53,860 --> 00:10:55,319 And we really want to do two basic things 366 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:56,859 to this number one, we want to create 367 00:10:56,860 --> 00:10:58,869 a create a framework of some sort 368 00:10:58,870 --> 00:11:00,159 that will increase the ability of 369 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,619 developers to 370 00:11:02,620 --> 00:11:04,779 make better tools that address the needs 371 00:11:04,780 --> 00:11:06,609 of users more explicitly. 372 00:11:06,610 --> 00:11:08,679 And number two, we want to find more 373 00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:11,229 intersections between developers, users, 374 00:11:11,230 --> 00:11:13,419 funders and intermediaries so they can 375 00:11:13,420 --> 00:11:15,819 collaborate and work together in 376 00:11:15,820 --> 00:11:16,749 creating more robust 377 00:11:16,750 --> 00:11:18,879 tools and talk about why that's 378 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:19,880 important in the minute. 379 00:11:21,460 --> 00:11:22,599 So there's a few major 380 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:23,589 steps to this, and I'm going to go 381 00:11:23,590 --> 00:11:25,119 through these in stock. 382 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:26,319 First of all, we're conducting a really 383 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,569 thorough landscape analysis 384 00:11:28,570 --> 00:11:28,959 of the whole 385 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:30,639 space, trying to understand 386 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:31,929 what's going on in the space, what the 387 00:11:31,930 --> 00:11:32,859 needs are. 388 00:11:32,860 --> 00:11:34,389 Essentially take our arms and first 389 00:11:34,390 --> 00:11:35,390 before we act. 390 00:11:36,730 --> 00:11:37,689 We're going to develop 391 00:11:37,690 --> 00:11:40,059 a research based approach grounded in 392 00:11:40,060 --> 00:11:42,819 ethnography and human centered design. 393 00:11:42,820 --> 00:11:43,749 So taking 394 00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:45,009 what we've learned, applying it to 395 00:11:45,010 --> 00:11:46,389 developing the research questions that we 396 00:11:46,390 --> 00:11:46,569 want 397 00:11:46,570 --> 00:11:48,369 to find out so we can assess the needs of 398 00:11:48,370 --> 00:11:50,439 users, conduct an actual 399 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:50,949 on the ground 400 00:11:50,950 --> 00:11:53,019 study with real users or potential 401 00:11:53,020 --> 00:11:54,879 users with a clear threat model, 402 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:56,949 understand their needs and 403 00:11:56,950 --> 00:11:57,549 then take what we've 404 00:11:57,550 --> 00:11:59,439 learned and create some sort of draft 405 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:00,909 pilot framework 406 00:12:00,910 --> 00:12:02,529 that gives that kind of 407 00:12:02,530 --> 00:12:03,939 lends support to that approach I was 408 00:12:03,940 --> 00:12:05,529 talking about before that says here are 409 00:12:05,530 --> 00:12:06,609 some things that you can do as a 410 00:12:06,610 --> 00:12:07,329 developer. 411 00:12:07,330 --> 00:12:09,309 Now, note that I asked for an asterisk 412 00:12:09,310 --> 00:12:10,989 next framework. 413 00:12:10,990 --> 00:12:11,979 I think framework. I mean, a lot of 414 00:12:11,980 --> 00:12:13,629 things. And honestly, at this point, you 415 00:12:13,630 --> 00:12:14,949 know, we're taking the output of this 416 00:12:14,950 --> 00:12:16,239 work is going to be a framework that we 417 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,039 say here, here's something that's helpful 418 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:19,599 to you. Hopefully, as a designer or a 419 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,069 developer of tools, 420 00:12:21,070 --> 00:12:22,359 I don't want to presuppose what that will 421 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:23,379 be yet. 422 00:12:23,380 --> 00:12:24,489 Sure, it might be a report. 423 00:12:24,490 --> 00:12:26,259 It also might be a series of instruments 424 00:12:26,260 --> 00:12:28,479 and tools. It also might be a ton 425 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,119 of surveys and step by step analyzes for 426 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:32,649 how to take the results of those surveys 427 00:12:32,650 --> 00:12:34,599 and turn them into actionable milestones 428 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,279 in your development roadmap. 429 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:37,659 We're still figuring that out. 430 00:12:37,660 --> 00:12:38,679 We're going to be working on this project 431 00:12:38,680 --> 00:12:40,719 through the spring, and I want your 432 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,309 feedback on what will be valuable to you 433 00:12:42,310 --> 00:12:43,839 once I've talked a bit more about 434 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:44,840 everything we're doing here. 435 00:12:46,150 --> 00:12:48,369 So before we go back into 436 00:12:48,370 --> 00:12:49,809 kind of what what this project's all 437 00:12:49,810 --> 00:12:52,749 about, who are these organizations? 438 00:12:52,750 --> 00:12:53,469 Well, first, the Open 439 00:12:53,470 --> 00:12:55,059 Technology Fund, which is we are really 440 00:12:55,060 --> 00:12:56,469 thankful, is funding this work. 441 00:12:56,470 --> 00:12:56,769 The Open 442 00:12:56,770 --> 00:12:58,989 Technology Fund exists to 443 00:12:58,990 --> 00:13:00,999 advance the research, development and 444 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,249 implementation of Internet Freedom Tools. 445 00:13:03,250 --> 00:13:04,269 It's a program. 446 00:13:06,830 --> 00:13:08,539 That is part of Radio Free Asia, which I 447 00:13:08,540 --> 00:13:10,159 described earlier. 448 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:11,569 And they've done a lot of really amazing 449 00:13:11,570 --> 00:13:13,069 work. They've funded a lot of great stuff 450 00:13:13,070 --> 00:13:15,319 in the space projects like Tor, Global 451 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:16,939 Leaks, Whisper Systems, 452 00:13:16,940 --> 00:13:19,039 I mean, you name it, they've been 453 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:20,119 involved in some way. 454 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:21,619 And they're really pushing the envelope. 455 00:13:21,620 --> 00:13:22,849 I think in this space in terms of a 456 00:13:22,850 --> 00:13:24,529 funder in this space by 457 00:13:24,530 --> 00:13:25,369 funding, 458 00:13:25,370 --> 00:13:26,839 let's say, riskier projects because I 459 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,419 think funding is a big challenge in the 460 00:13:28,420 --> 00:13:30,649 space and they're they're there to try 461 00:13:30,650 --> 00:13:32,059 and start up some new ideas 462 00:13:32,060 --> 00:13:33,710 that maybe haven't got the attention yet. 463 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:35,449 And secondly, the 464 00:13:35,450 --> 00:13:37,069 second, this is my organization. 465 00:13:37,070 --> 00:13:38,359 So. And secondly, as we 466 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:39,649 work to improve the world through 467 00:13:39,650 --> 00:13:41,479 technology and collaboration, what 468 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:42,529 does this actually mean? 469 00:13:42,530 --> 00:13:44,179 Well, I work with a group called the Open 470 00:13:44,180 --> 00:13:46,519 Innovation Group, and we design 471 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:47,119 and execute 472 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,219 programs that source innovative thinking 473 00:13:49,220 --> 00:13:51,199 all around the world to solve complex 474 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:52,459 social challenges. 475 00:13:52,460 --> 00:13:53,719 One of the programs that we've run for a 476 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,219 number of years. Some of you may know 477 00:13:55,220 --> 00:13:55,909 it's a program called 478 00:13:55,910 --> 00:13:57,259 Random Acts of Kindness. 479 00:13:57,260 --> 00:13:58,369 And this is an earlier 480 00:13:58,370 --> 00:14:00,689 project that we did for a while. 481 00:14:00,690 --> 00:14:01,909 Really say, Hey, maybe we can get a 482 00:14:01,910 --> 00:14:03,259 bunch of developers and technologists 483 00:14:03,260 --> 00:14:05,329 around the world to decide for themselves 484 00:14:05,330 --> 00:14:07,039 what's important in their communities 485 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,589 and build something relevant to them? 486 00:14:09,590 --> 00:14:10,669 Now, since then, we've done a lot of 487 00:14:10,670 --> 00:14:12,979 other projects. We ran NASA's 488 00:14:12,980 --> 00:14:14,599 International Space Apps Challenge, which 489 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:16,249 looked at how you can apply open 490 00:14:16,250 --> 00:14:18,679 innovation towards space exploration. 491 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:19,939 And then we ran a project called the 492 00:14:19,940 --> 00:14:21,439 Central America Domestic Violence 493 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,209 Hackathon, where we worked with 494 00:14:23,210 --> 00:14:24,919 non-profits and NGOs 495 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:26,359 throughout Central America. 496 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:27,799 We said, Let's look at the space of 497 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,049 problems within domestic violence in 498 00:14:30,050 --> 00:14:31,279 Central America. 499 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,379 Let's identify a subset of those problems 500 00:14:33,380 --> 00:14:34,849 that could potentially be solved by 501 00:14:34,850 --> 00:14:36,049 technology. 502 00:14:36,050 --> 00:14:37,879 And let's build and convene communities 503 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:39,229 of technologists to 504 00:14:39,230 --> 00:14:40,639 prototype solutions to some of those 505 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:42,349 problems. And then ultimately, let's 506 00:14:42,350 --> 00:14:44,539 incubate for really, really good ideas 507 00:14:44,540 --> 00:14:45,199 into 508 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:46,909 lasting projects that could actually be 509 00:14:46,910 --> 00:14:49,549 implemented and used in the real world. 510 00:14:49,550 --> 00:14:50,929 Now I can give a whole talk about that. 511 00:14:50,930 --> 00:14:51,949 I won't. 512 00:14:51,950 --> 00:14:53,509 But I want to say that this was an 513 00:14:53,510 --> 00:14:55,279 interesting one because unlike the first 514 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,469 two projects, the privacy 515 00:14:57,470 --> 00:14:59,629 and security implications for doing open 516 00:14:59,630 --> 00:15:00,979 innovation in the face of domestic 517 00:15:00,980 --> 00:15:03,469 violence start to become really clear. 518 00:15:03,470 --> 00:15:03,979 And we realized, 519 00:15:03,980 --> 00:15:06,169 Wow, you can't just have 520 00:15:06,170 --> 00:15:07,219 people innovating on this. 521 00:15:07,220 --> 00:15:09,469 You have to actually give 522 00:15:09,470 --> 00:15:10,849 people a way to do it safely, 523 00:15:10,850 --> 00:15:12,499 securely, freely, openly. 524 00:15:14,030 --> 00:15:15,529 So really, what we 525 00:15:15,530 --> 00:15:16,879 realized is we believe that, you 526 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:18,739 know, free speech and free communication 527 00:15:18,740 --> 00:15:20,419 is a fundamental ingredient of open 528 00:15:20,420 --> 00:15:21,739 innovation. 529 00:15:21,740 --> 00:15:23,029 If you're going to come up with innovative 530 00:15:23,030 --> 00:15:23,929 ideas, you're 531 00:15:23,930 --> 00:15:24,979 often going to be disrupting the 532 00:15:24,980 --> 00:15:26,479 established order. And that established 533 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,759 order has a reason to try and shut down 534 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:29,899 your way of coming up 535 00:15:29,900 --> 00:15:31,399 with those new ideas. 536 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,379 So how can we help empower open 537 00:15:33,380 --> 00:15:34,849 innovation, especially through 538 00:15:34,850 --> 00:15:37,009 technology? And we believe that 539 00:15:37,010 --> 00:15:37,219 by 540 00:15:37,220 --> 00:15:38,749 supporting the research and development 541 00:15:38,750 --> 00:15:40,609 of more effective tools that enable 542 00:15:40,610 --> 00:15:42,889 people to access freely 543 00:15:42,890 --> 00:15:44,689 and communicate freely? 544 00:15:44,690 --> 00:15:46,099 So that's really what led into this 545 00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:47,100 project. 546 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,309 And I just want to give a shout out to my 547 00:15:49,310 --> 00:15:50,689 team I'm on. 548 00:15:50,690 --> 00:15:51,769 They're not here today, but 549 00:15:51,770 --> 00:15:53,059 I couldn't do this without them. 550 00:15:54,110 --> 00:15:55,909 So my background, I have a patient 551 00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:56,479 computer science. 552 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:57,649 I did my research on privacy and 553 00:15:57,650 --> 00:15:58,609 security. 554 00:15:58,610 --> 00:16:00,619 But to do this work properly, we need a 555 00:16:00,620 --> 00:16:01,699 diversity of backgrounds 556 00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:02,989 and 557 00:16:02,990 --> 00:16:04,399 Katie Metzger off on the top right. 558 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,469 She has a social science background and 559 00:16:06,470 --> 00:16:07,789 has really applied a lot of that work to 560 00:16:07,790 --> 00:16:09,499 social impact and socially sustainable 561 00:16:09,500 --> 00:16:10,519 businesses. 562 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,469 Roxann Stafford, on the bottom left, has 563 00:16:12,470 --> 00:16:14,959 a deep background in design thinking 564 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:16,909 taught at Stanford for a bit about that 565 00:16:16,910 --> 00:16:17,899 and has 566 00:16:17,900 --> 00:16:19,829 done a lot of ethnographic work and 567 00:16:19,830 --> 00:16:21,379 Shetland recently joined second. 568 00:16:21,380 --> 00:16:22,489 Views are really happy about that. 569 00:16:22,490 --> 00:16:24,439 He just came over here from Nassau, where 570 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:25,759 he was heading up their open innovation 571 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:26,749 program. 572 00:16:26,750 --> 00:16:27,829 So the four of us been working on this 573 00:16:27,830 --> 00:16:28,849 project a lot. I want 574 00:16:28,850 --> 00:16:30,140 to give you their faces too, because 575 00:16:31,490 --> 00:16:32,809 we want to talk to more people. 576 00:16:32,810 --> 00:16:34,429 And so now maybe you know who they are 577 00:16:34,430 --> 00:16:35,749 when they come and say, Hey, can you talk 578 00:16:35,750 --> 00:16:36,259 to me for a minute 579 00:16:36,260 --> 00:16:37,260 about what you're doing? 580 00:16:38,060 --> 00:16:39,739 OK, so back to the project, 581 00:16:41,150 --> 00:16:41,929 I'm going to talk about the three 582 00:16:41,930 --> 00:16:43,069 phases of our work. We're in the middle 583 00:16:43,070 --> 00:16:44,419 of the first phase right now. 584 00:16:44,420 --> 00:16:45,619 The first phase is the landscape 585 00:16:45,620 --> 00:16:47,029 analysis. Then we're going to do an on 586 00:16:47,030 --> 00:16:48,979 the ground research study in a place 587 00:16:48,980 --> 00:16:50,509 called Dharamsala in India, which I'll 588 00:16:50,510 --> 00:16:51,769 get you in a minute and then we're 589 00:16:51,770 --> 00:16:52,969 actually going to figure out the best way 590 00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:53,539 to output 591 00:16:53,540 --> 00:16:54,540 all this stuff. 592 00:16:55,340 --> 00:16:57,469 So as I said before, before 593 00:16:57,470 --> 00:16:59,629 we do anything by saying, Oh, 594 00:16:59,630 --> 00:17:01,369 this is what can be done in this space to 595 00:17:01,370 --> 00:17:02,749 build more effective internet freedom 596 00:17:02,750 --> 00:17:05,419 tools, we have to take our own medicine. 597 00:17:05,420 --> 00:17:08,449 We have to look at this space and say, 598 00:17:08,450 --> 00:17:10,639 Where are people in this space? 599 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:12,568 Where are developers at where our funders 600 00:17:12,569 --> 00:17:14,419 that were our intermediaries and users 601 00:17:14,420 --> 00:17:15,529 at? 602 00:17:15,530 --> 00:17:17,299 Can we understand the landscape of the 603 00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:19,608 space before we start deciding how to act 604 00:17:19,609 --> 00:17:20,899 within it? 605 00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:21,858 And that's why we've been spending a lot 606 00:17:21,859 --> 00:17:22,969 of time doing over the past couple of 607 00:17:22,970 --> 00:17:25,068 months. Our main mechanism for doing 608 00:17:25,069 --> 00:17:26,959 this is through interviewing 609 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,359 experts representing 610 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:30,859 a diversity of roles in the space, and 611 00:17:30,860 --> 00:17:32,209 we've interviewed 612 00:17:32,210 --> 00:17:34,459 about 20 people at this point and 613 00:17:34,460 --> 00:17:35,569 20 people doesn't sound like a 614 00:17:35,570 --> 00:17:36,949 lot. I assure you, when you're doing 615 00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:38,059 comprehensive interviews, it is. 616 00:17:38,060 --> 00:17:39,949 It takes a lot of prep and a lot of posts 617 00:17:39,950 --> 00:17:41,869 work out of every single interview to 618 00:17:41,870 --> 00:17:43,759 make sure you're coming up with an 619 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,409 approach for that person that makes sense 620 00:17:45,410 --> 00:17:46,669 and you're making the most of your time 621 00:17:46,670 --> 00:17:48,199 with them and then distilling all the 622 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:49,549 learning and comparing that learning to 623 00:17:49,550 --> 00:17:50,719 the other folks who you've been 624 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:51,720 interviewing. 625 00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:54,319 So, so what are these interviews look 626 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:55,609 like? 627 00:17:55,610 --> 00:17:56,849 Well, these are just a few exam 628 00:17:56,850 --> 00:17:58,609 questions. We actually have this giant 629 00:17:58,610 --> 00:17:59,269 template that 630 00:17:59,270 --> 00:18:01,729 we custom tailor to every, every person. 631 00:18:01,730 --> 00:18:02,929 But here are some different questions 632 00:18:02,930 --> 00:18:04,909 that we might ask either everyone or 633 00:18:04,910 --> 00:18:05,999 developers we're going to. 634 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,529 Eaters or users, 635 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,109 by the way, I've been through intermediaries 636 00:18:10,110 --> 00:18:11,429 around a lot. I just wanted to find that 637 00:18:11,430 --> 00:18:12,419 really quickly. 638 00:18:12,420 --> 00:18:14,129 In this context, an intermediary would be 639 00:18:14,130 --> 00:18:15,269 an individual 640 00:18:15,270 --> 00:18:17,249 or group or an organization that acts as 641 00:18:17,250 --> 00:18:19,229 a middle person between users on the 642 00:18:19,230 --> 00:18:21,269 ground and developers of tools. 643 00:18:21,270 --> 00:18:23,039 So that could be a research institution. 644 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,289 It could be an activist 645 00:18:25,290 --> 00:18:26,309 group. 646 00:18:26,310 --> 00:18:28,049 It could be a training organization. 647 00:18:28,050 --> 00:18:29,940 So and it could even be a funder. 648 00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:32,909 So you might ask a developer, 649 00:18:32,910 --> 00:18:34,559 you know, how are you identifying the 650 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,089 needs of your own users and how do they 651 00:18:36,090 --> 00:18:36,569 currently 652 00:18:36,570 --> 00:18:38,099 affected them a process because we want 653 00:18:38,100 --> 00:18:38,699 to know the state of 654 00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:39,209 things right now. 655 00:18:39,210 --> 00:18:40,499 We don't want to come in with assumptions 656 00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:41,699 about how people are 657 00:18:41,700 --> 00:18:42,839 already doing this, and we've already 658 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:44,549 found a wide range of some people take 659 00:18:44,550 --> 00:18:45,689 feedback in these different ways. 660 00:18:45,690 --> 00:18:46,890 Some people don't 661 00:18:49,230 --> 00:18:51,659 intermarried or intermediaries might ask 662 00:18:51,660 --> 00:18:53,639 one user when you're working with users 663 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:54,509 to identify 664 00:18:54,510 --> 00:18:56,249 tools that are most effective to them and 665 00:18:56,250 --> 00:18:57,389 they have a threat model that they're 666 00:18:57,390 --> 00:18:58,499 working with. 667 00:18:58,500 --> 00:19:00,359 Do you validate that threat? 668 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:01,360 And if so, how? 669 00:19:02,820 --> 00:19:04,499 And for users, you might even ask very 670 00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:06,199 simple questions around, you know. 671 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:07,409 Walk us through something that you're 672 00:19:07,410 --> 00:19:08,729 doing today? 673 00:19:08,730 --> 00:19:10,469 Or what are the concerns that come to the 674 00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:11,639 top of your mind when you're using the 675 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:13,079 internet? Because that might tell you a 676 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:14,249 lot about their current state of 677 00:19:14,250 --> 00:19:15,599 education and understanding about what 678 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:16,600 they're trying to do. 679 00:19:17,970 --> 00:19:19,109 So what are we learning? 680 00:19:19,110 --> 00:19:19,769 And this is kind of 681 00:19:19,770 --> 00:19:21,329 the main points I want I want to bring up 682 00:19:21,330 --> 00:19:22,289 here. 683 00:19:22,290 --> 00:19:24,089 We're in this landscape analysis phase. 684 00:19:24,090 --> 00:19:26,729 We've done a really broad review. 685 00:19:26,730 --> 00:19:28,469 What are some of the things that were 686 00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:29,519 coming out of this? 687 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,049 Now some of these might be obvious, I 688 00:19:31,050 --> 00:19:32,099 think some of them less so. 689 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:33,899 So the first one that 690 00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:36,509 came up are personas are underused. 691 00:19:38,430 --> 00:19:40,619 Well, my first question who here 692 00:19:40,620 --> 00:19:42,179 in the software development context, 693 00:19:42,180 --> 00:19:44,309 who here knows things that feels like 694 00:19:44,310 --> 00:19:45,299 they have a good understanding of what a 695 00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:46,379 persona is and how it's 696 00:19:46,380 --> 00:19:47,369 used. 697 00:19:47,370 --> 00:19:49,079 OK, so there's a bunch of hands up, but 698 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:50,699 it's actually only about 699 00:19:50,700 --> 00:19:52,769 a third of the room, maybe 700 00:19:52,770 --> 00:19:53,770 a little more than that. 701 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:56,579 So for those who 702 00:19:56,580 --> 00:19:58,409 aren't familiar personas, personas are 703 00:19:58,410 --> 00:20:01,299 basically an archetype of a user and 704 00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:02,729 a stereotypical 705 00:20:02,730 --> 00:20:04,049 user among a certain group. 706 00:20:04,050 --> 00:20:06,179 So you might have a persona for 707 00:20:06,180 --> 00:20:07,409 a journalist 708 00:20:07,410 --> 00:20:08,939 and you might look at that persona. 709 00:20:08,940 --> 00:20:10,439 And when you're designing tools, you 710 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,209 think about that persona, which defines 711 00:20:12,210 --> 00:20:14,159 the motivations, the education level, the 712 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:15,989 threats, the concerns, the daily 713 00:20:15,990 --> 00:20:17,820 activities of an individual 714 00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:19,889 who is a 715 00:20:19,890 --> 00:20:21,029 journalist. 716 00:20:21,030 --> 00:20:23,159 Now what we heard from folks is that 717 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:23,879 generally 718 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,559 using personas to develop internet 719 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,539 freedom tools, people are nervous of 720 00:20:27,540 --> 00:20:29,609 that because, you know, there's 721 00:20:29,610 --> 00:20:30,989 a big debate on the acceptable 722 00:20:30,990 --> 00:20:32,999 level of granularity of personas. 723 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:34,109 How can you say that all 724 00:20:34,110 --> 00:20:35,579 journalists are the same 725 00:20:35,580 --> 00:20:37,739 and design a tool based on an archetype 726 00:20:37,740 --> 00:20:38,639 of a journalist? 727 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,769 When the threatening threats are they 728 00:20:40,770 --> 00:20:41,009 that 729 00:20:41,010 --> 00:20:42,419 they have are very different in all 730 00:20:42,420 --> 00:20:43,420 different parts of the world. 731 00:20:44,460 --> 00:20:45,599 But what we found and we've heard from a 732 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,099 lot of people is that actually 733 00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:48,209 this space can afford some more 734 00:20:48,210 --> 00:20:50,609 generalization regarding the creation 735 00:20:50,610 --> 00:20:52,199 and use of personas 736 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,509 that actually maybe being 737 00:20:54,510 --> 00:20:56,639 overly concerned about not having 738 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,199 granular enough personas 739 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,479 prevents a systematic approach towards 740 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,699 design defining tools that can be used by 741 00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:03,149 a wide 742 00:21:03,150 --> 00:21:04,619 range of people in a group 743 00:21:04,620 --> 00:21:06,299 of personas not meant to define a tool to 744 00:21:06,300 --> 00:21:07,049 say this, only 745 00:21:07,050 --> 00:21:09,179 this version of this person can use it. 746 00:21:09,180 --> 00:21:10,289 It's meant to give you a baseline. 747 00:21:10,290 --> 00:21:12,059 Essentially, here's a baseline of 748 00:21:12,060 --> 00:21:13,289 concerns that you're going to want to hit 749 00:21:13,290 --> 00:21:15,449 upon when you're designing a tool for use 750 00:21:15,450 --> 00:21:16,450 of this group. 751 00:21:19,650 --> 00:21:20,699 Another thing which probably is not 752 00:21:20,700 --> 00:21:21,899 surprising a lot of folks, but the 753 00:21:21,900 --> 00:21:23,069 internet freedom space 754 00:21:24,140 --> 00:21:24,509 of 755 00:21:24,510 --> 00:21:25,889 tool developers lacks a lot of 756 00:21:25,890 --> 00:21:27,059 definition. 757 00:21:27,060 --> 00:21:29,069 The interviews we've talked to have 758 00:21:29,070 --> 00:21:30,809 pointed a lot to a lack of cohesion in 759 00:21:30,810 --> 00:21:31,859 the space as a 760 00:21:31,860 --> 00:21:33,629 barrier to collaboration, 761 00:21:33,630 --> 00:21:34,469 but that there 762 00:21:34,470 --> 00:21:36,539 is a desire for collaboration. 763 00:21:36,540 --> 00:21:38,069 And these are just the quotes from pulled 764 00:21:38,070 --> 00:21:39,209 straight from the interviews of things 765 00:21:39,210 --> 00:21:39,689 that 766 00:21:39,690 --> 00:21:41,109 different people have said. 767 00:21:41,110 --> 00:21:41,729 People called it 768 00:21:41,730 --> 00:21:43,829 nascent, splintered, non-existent, 769 00:21:43,830 --> 00:21:45,209 undefined. 770 00:21:45,210 --> 00:21:46,109 And while they sound like they have a 771 00:21:46,110 --> 00:21:47,879 negative connotation, generally the 772 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:49,109 people saying it were not. 773 00:21:49,110 --> 00:21:50,789 They weren't slamming the space. 774 00:21:50,790 --> 00:21:52,949 They're saying there's there's 775 00:21:52,950 --> 00:21:54,629 more things that we can be doing and more 776 00:21:54,630 --> 00:21:56,519 collaboration that we could be doing in 777 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,019 order to build more robust and more 778 00:21:58,020 --> 00:21:59,020 effective tools. 779 00:22:00,450 --> 00:22:01,919 Another thing that came up a lot about 780 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:03,029 this and this maybe ties 781 00:22:03,030 --> 00:22:04,739 a little bit more into the previous slide 782 00:22:04,740 --> 00:22:06,089 is that when we've been talking 783 00:22:06,090 --> 00:22:07,469 to developers and we've asked that 784 00:22:07,470 --> 00:22:08,939 multiple developers this question, we 785 00:22:08,940 --> 00:22:10,359 say, Who do you design your tools for? 786 00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:11,549 Who do you think of when you're designing 787 00:22:11,550 --> 00:22:12,809 your tool? 788 00:22:12,810 --> 00:22:14,430 They often say, Well, I think of myself. 789 00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:17,699 And that's not to point blame on 790 00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:19,139 developers at all. I think what it 791 00:22:19,140 --> 00:22:20,519 actually points to is 792 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,109 a lack of support and resources for 793 00:22:22,110 --> 00:22:23,069 knowing who to develop 794 00:22:23,070 --> 00:22:24,419 for, right? 795 00:22:24,420 --> 00:22:26,009 If someone doesn't have a 796 00:22:26,010 --> 00:22:27,899 good understanding of the different types 797 00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:30,379 of users out there, it's very natural 798 00:22:30,380 --> 00:22:31,319 to design for yourself. 799 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:32,729 It's actually something we all do every 800 00:22:32,730 --> 00:22:33,749 day. 801 00:22:33,750 --> 00:22:36,179 So our question is how can we help 802 00:22:36,180 --> 00:22:38,189 bring more resources so that you don't 803 00:22:38,190 --> 00:22:39,299 feel like you only have to design for 804 00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:40,859 yourself? But you can have a good 805 00:22:40,860 --> 00:22:42,150 understanding of other users. 806 00:22:45,670 --> 00:22:47,739 Training of end users 807 00:22:47,740 --> 00:22:48,459 in Internet Freedom 808 00:22:48,460 --> 00:22:50,919 Tools is an important part of this of 809 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:52,239 of the development of tools. 810 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,189 It's important because that's where a lot 811 00:22:54,190 --> 00:22:56,199 of developers and experts get 812 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:57,759 on hand, you know, hands 813 00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,469 on experience watching people use their 814 00:22:59,470 --> 00:23:00,459 tools. 815 00:23:00,460 --> 00:23:01,809 But we've heard from multiple 816 00:23:01,810 --> 00:23:04,359 trainers is that the effectiveness 817 00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:06,789 of these trainings is not always clear 818 00:23:06,790 --> 00:23:07,059 because 819 00:23:07,060 --> 00:23:08,409 it's not measured thoroughly 820 00:23:08,410 --> 00:23:10,479 and the the anecdotal 821 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,219 evidence is not always clear. 822 00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:13,719 We actually saw this for ourselves. 823 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,039 It was a really interesting experience. 824 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,349 My colleague Katie, who I mentioned 825 00:23:17,350 --> 00:23:19,449 earlier, went to an event where 826 00:23:19,450 --> 00:23:21,909 a bunch of. So there were a bunch of 827 00:23:21,910 --> 00:23:23,529 journalists from 828 00:23:23,530 --> 00:23:25,629 Palestine that were invited to the US 829 00:23:25,630 --> 00:23:27,039 a few months ago, and 830 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,049 she went to her to an event where a bunch 831 00:23:29,050 --> 00:23:30,069 of trainers and developers 832 00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:32,139 of tools hung out with 833 00:23:32,140 --> 00:23:33,729 these, with these journalists for for a 834 00:23:33,730 --> 00:23:35,049 few hours. 835 00:23:35,050 --> 00:23:36,099 And these journalists talked 836 00:23:36,100 --> 00:23:37,959 about all sorts of things like, you know, 837 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:39,519 I'm afraid of, want to go over the border 838 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:40,719 that people are going to take my laptop 839 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,599 and take the data off of it. 840 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:43,629 I know this story 841 00:23:43,630 --> 00:23:44,979 is about people getting thrown in jail 842 00:23:44,980 --> 00:23:45,969 for liking Facebook 843 00:23:45,970 --> 00:23:46,929 posts, all 844 00:23:46,930 --> 00:23:48,789 these serious concerns about privacy and 845 00:23:48,790 --> 00:23:50,379 security. And then for the next few 846 00:23:50,380 --> 00:23:51,909 hours, they worked with these trainers 847 00:23:51,910 --> 00:23:52,869 and developers 848 00:23:52,870 --> 00:23:53,649 to look 849 00:23:53,650 --> 00:23:55,119 at a suite of different tools and how 850 00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:56,499 those tools could affect and help them 851 00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:57,939 and where they are. 852 00:23:57,940 --> 00:24:00,039 And and there came a certain 853 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:00,939 point in this 854 00:24:00,940 --> 00:24:03,219 training where despite 855 00:24:03,220 --> 00:24:04,749 the trainers best efforts, and I think 856 00:24:04,750 --> 00:24:06,039 that these trainers knew a lot about what 857 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:07,329 they're doing, and I really have a lot of 858 00:24:07,330 --> 00:24:07,629 respect 859 00:24:07,630 --> 00:24:09,369 to them. But despite their best efforts, 860 00:24:09,370 --> 00:24:10,749 you can tell that the 861 00:24:10,750 --> 00:24:11,679 journals that were there were starting to 862 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,479 get really visibly frustrated. 863 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:14,649 They were they were overwhelmed. 864 00:24:14,650 --> 00:24:15,819 Frankly, they were overwhelmed 865 00:24:15,820 --> 00:24:17,199 by all the things that they didn't 866 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:18,459 know were problems. I mean, these are 867 00:24:18,460 --> 00:24:18,669 folks 868 00:24:18,670 --> 00:24:20,799 coming in that, you know, 869 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:21,579 didn't even have 870 00:24:21,580 --> 00:24:23,169 a like were expressing concern about 871 00:24:23,170 --> 00:24:24,249 people stealing information off the 872 00:24:24,250 --> 00:24:26,019 computer, but didn't even have a like a 873 00:24:26,020 --> 00:24:27,909 screen lock password on their computer. 874 00:24:27,910 --> 00:24:29,739 Right. So when they're presented with all 875 00:24:29,740 --> 00:24:31,479 this stuff, they got really overwhelmed. 876 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,579 And at the end of this training 877 00:24:33,580 --> 00:24:35,499 event, at the end of this meeting, they 878 00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:36,999 went around the room into the 10 journals 879 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,000 the room, they said. 880 00:24:39,730 --> 00:24:40,569 The final question is 881 00:24:40,570 --> 00:24:41,829 worded after learning everything we have 882 00:24:41,830 --> 00:24:43,269 here today. What are your biggest 883 00:24:43,270 --> 00:24:44,259 security concerns? 884 00:24:44,260 --> 00:24:46,449 And despite everything they said earlier, 885 00:24:46,450 --> 00:24:47,479 despite everything that's been talked 886 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:48,939 about all day, eight of the 10 887 00:24:48,940 --> 00:24:50,079 journalists said, You know, 888 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:51,819 actually, I don't really have any really 889 00:24:51,820 --> 00:24:53,939 major security concerns. 890 00:24:53,940 --> 00:24:54,609 And that was 891 00:24:54,610 --> 00:24:56,229 really interesting and really 892 00:24:56,230 --> 00:24:56,829 informative. 893 00:24:56,830 --> 00:24:58,899 Write about these folks came in 894 00:24:58,900 --> 00:24:59,019 with 895 00:24:59,020 --> 00:25:00,639 these clear things that were going on, 896 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,019 and after going through the whole process 897 00:25:02,020 --> 00:25:03,429 of learning about everything that could 898 00:25:03,430 --> 00:25:04,599 go wrong and everything they could do to 899 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:05,319 address it. 900 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:06,699 They said this is too much. 901 00:25:10,900 --> 00:25:12,639 Another warning we got. 902 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:13,800 We've talked a number of funders. 903 00:25:14,980 --> 00:25:17,649 This is a space that is 904 00:25:17,650 --> 00:25:18,309 reliant 905 00:25:18,310 --> 00:25:20,259 on the funding of a number of foundations 906 00:25:20,260 --> 00:25:21,339 and organizations. 907 00:25:21,340 --> 00:25:22,509 And there's not a lot of funding to go 908 00:25:22,510 --> 00:25:23,259 around. 909 00:25:23,260 --> 00:25:25,219 But funders do want to fund. 910 00:25:25,220 --> 00:25:26,799 We've heard that over and over again. 911 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:28,269 They want to get involved in the space 912 00:25:28,270 --> 00:25:29,259 they want. 913 00:25:29,260 --> 00:25:31,059 They want to give you their money and 914 00:25:31,060 --> 00:25:33,099 say, do good things to help us with the 915 00:25:33,100 --> 00:25:35,139 people that we serve around the world. 916 00:25:35,140 --> 00:25:37,719 But they're currently treading carefully. 917 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:38,619 And the reason why they're treading 918 00:25:38,620 --> 00:25:40,269 carefully is that they don't have 919 00:25:40,270 --> 00:25:41,769 the certainty that they want before 920 00:25:41,770 --> 00:25:43,599 making an investment. 921 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,039 So here's an actual quote from a funder 922 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:46,119 that we talk to. 923 00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:48,219 The elephant in the room is how well 924 00:25:48,220 --> 00:25:49,989 are on the ground activists going to 925 00:25:49,990 --> 00:25:51,459 use privacy or circumvention 926 00:25:51,460 --> 00:25:53,469 tools? They won't do it well unless they 927 00:25:53,470 --> 00:25:56,529 are trained or born digital activists. 928 00:25:56,530 --> 00:25:57,789 This is an illuminating quote 929 00:25:57,790 --> 00:25:59,619 for us and something we heard echoed, 930 00:25:59,620 --> 00:26:02,199 though not as concisely from other folks, 931 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,779 that there's skepticism 932 00:26:04,780 --> 00:26:06,699 about the effectiveness of people on the 933 00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:08,169 ground being able to effectively use 934 00:26:08,170 --> 00:26:09,099 these tools. 935 00:26:09,100 --> 00:26:10,419 And I think what's implicit in the 936 00:26:10,420 --> 00:26:12,099 sentence is they're saying they won't do 937 00:26:12,100 --> 00:26:12,339 it well 938 00:26:12,340 --> 00:26:13,629 unless they're trained or born digital 939 00:26:13,630 --> 00:26:15,459 activists and there. And the implicit 940 00:26:15,460 --> 00:26:16,719 statement in there that we've heard is 941 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,849 that most folks are not those 942 00:26:18,850 --> 00:26:19,850 things. 943 00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:22,449 It's important. Remember that funders are 944 00:26:22,450 --> 00:26:24,579 mission driven, and 945 00:26:24,580 --> 00:26:26,499 to them, it's not clear yet what tools 946 00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:27,999 will help them achieve that mission. 947 00:26:29,410 --> 00:26:30,519 And another thing that we heard a lot is 948 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:31,899 a communication between quote unquote 949 00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:34,179 techies or techies and 950 00:26:34,180 --> 00:26:36,099 non-technical funders is a challenge. 951 00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:38,289 So the I think that's improving. 952 00:26:38,290 --> 00:26:38,919 There've been a lot of 953 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:39,879 events that have been going on, 954 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,469 especially this year trying to bring 955 00:26:41,470 --> 00:26:43,359 together funders in the space with 956 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:44,469 developers, 957 00:26:44,470 --> 00:26:45,760 but it's got quite a ways to go. 958 00:26:47,690 --> 00:26:48,739 And a couple more that I want to talk 959 00:26:48,740 --> 00:26:50,179 about. One, this is a really amazing 960 00:26:50,180 --> 00:26:52,009 thing that came up when thinking about 961 00:26:52,010 --> 00:26:53,010 usability. 962 00:26:53,900 --> 00:26:55,759 Is there a difference between use of a 963 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,069 tool and usefulness of a tool? 964 00:26:59,930 --> 00:27:01,009 So when you're examining 965 00:27:01,010 --> 00:27:02,599 usability, they're actually maybe there 966 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:03,889 is a really important difference there 967 00:27:03,890 --> 00:27:04,339 and maybe we 968 00:27:04,340 --> 00:27:06,289 don't think about both sides of the coin. 969 00:27:06,290 --> 00:27:06,859 This is a quote from 970 00:27:06,860 --> 00:27:08,359 someone, a developer that we talked to or 971 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:10,429 a researcher that we talked to. 972 00:27:10,430 --> 00:27:11,419 This person said for many 973 00:27:11,420 --> 00:27:12,889 uses that top of mind when thinking about 974 00:27:12,890 --> 00:27:13,669 usability 975 00:27:13,670 --> 00:27:15,289 that the user click in the right place. 976 00:27:15,290 --> 00:27:16,669 Do they enter their password? 977 00:27:16,670 --> 00:27:17,989 Perhaps a better understanding of 978 00:27:17,990 --> 00:27:18,919 usefulness. 979 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,629 And with the usefulness, the questions 980 00:27:20,630 --> 00:27:21,619 might come up not 981 00:27:21,620 --> 00:27:22,909 to the person clicking the right place, 982 00:27:22,910 --> 00:27:25,009 but is this tool relevant 983 00:27:25,010 --> 00:27:25,639 to their daily 984 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:26,659 activities? 985 00:27:26,660 --> 00:27:28,069 Does it help them achieve their mission? 986 00:27:29,330 --> 00:27:31,459 This is really combining looking 987 00:27:31,460 --> 00:27:32,389 at use and usefulness 988 00:27:32,390 --> 00:27:34,189 separately or bringing them both under 989 00:27:34,190 --> 00:27:35,630 the umbrella of usability 990 00:27:37,010 --> 00:27:39,259 is a way of having a more holistic 991 00:27:39,260 --> 00:27:40,759 approach to usability. 992 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,229 And it's actually also ties into 993 00:27:42,230 --> 00:27:43,459 something else that we heard from a 994 00:27:43,460 --> 00:27:44,299 number of folks, which 995 00:27:44,300 --> 00:27:45,319 is the idea of a 996 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,419 relevant tool versus an appropriate 997 00:27:47,420 --> 00:27:48,349 tool. 998 00:27:48,350 --> 00:27:50,329 The argument being that that we 999 00:27:50,330 --> 00:27:51,619 heard from this person we talked to was 1000 00:27:51,620 --> 00:27:53,239 another person who's been involved in 1001 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:54,890 this in the space for a very long time 1002 00:27:56,100 --> 00:27:57,889 said that when you go to a user and say 1003 00:27:57,890 --> 00:27:59,689 this tool is appropriate for you, you 1004 00:27:59,690 --> 00:27:59,929 should 1005 00:27:59,930 --> 00:28:01,099 use this tool. 1006 00:28:01,100 --> 00:28:02,629 You're baking in a lot of assumptions 1007 00:28:02,630 --> 00:28:05,329 into what their realities are every day, 1008 00:28:05,330 --> 00:28:06,679 assumptions that you don't necessarily 1009 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:07,939 can't necessarily back up. 1010 00:28:07,940 --> 00:28:09,979 But if you go to that person and say, 1011 00:28:09,980 --> 00:28:10,459 from what 1012 00:28:10,460 --> 00:28:12,739 I understand, here are a series of tools 1013 00:28:12,740 --> 00:28:14,269 that are relevant to you. 1014 00:28:14,270 --> 00:28:16,339 Now let's work together to find the one 1015 00:28:16,340 --> 00:28:18,169 that's most effective for you. 1016 00:28:18,170 --> 00:28:19,399 You're coming of this assumption that you 1017 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,529 can have a more effective approach. 1018 00:28:21,530 --> 00:28:22,939 Again, I want to stress these are all 1019 00:28:22,940 --> 00:28:25,099 emergent learnings, and if any of you 1020 00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:26,539 have strong opinions about them one way 1021 00:28:26,540 --> 00:28:28,129 or the other, I really want to hear from 1022 00:28:28,130 --> 00:28:29,449 you. The reason why I'm sharing 1023 00:28:29,450 --> 00:28:31,309 all this stuff here is not to say these 1024 00:28:31,310 --> 00:28:31,459 are the 1025 00:28:31,460 --> 00:28:32,719 answers. This is what we've learned, 1026 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:33,769 period, and say. 1027 00:28:33,770 --> 00:28:35,299 This is what we've heard so far and we 1028 00:28:35,300 --> 00:28:35,419 have a 1029 00:28:35,420 --> 00:28:36,829 long way to go. 1030 00:28:36,830 --> 00:28:39,049 But this is now an opportunity 1031 00:28:39,050 --> 00:28:40,159 to kind of try and share some of those 1032 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:41,160 ideas a little more broadly. 1033 00:28:43,580 --> 00:28:45,019 And then finally, this is, I think, 1034 00:28:45,020 --> 00:28:46,789 probably the most important one the value 1035 00:28:46,790 --> 00:28:47,779 to developers. 1036 00:28:47,780 --> 00:28:49,009 If we're going to propose more 1037 00:28:49,010 --> 00:28:50,959 support to a user centric approach that 1038 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:51,889 developers can can 1039 00:28:51,890 --> 00:28:54,169 use, it has to complement 1040 00:28:54,170 --> 00:28:56,119 the work of developers, not just create 1041 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:57,409 more work for them. And we heard this 1042 00:28:57,410 --> 00:28:58,549 from a lot of folks, and I think it's a 1043 00:28:58,550 --> 00:28:59,629 really important point. 1044 00:28:59,630 --> 00:29:01,129 People say, Look, I don't have a lot of 1045 00:29:01,130 --> 00:29:01,819 money, I don't have a lot 1046 00:29:01,820 --> 00:29:03,259 of time and I know a lot of resources. 1047 00:29:03,260 --> 00:29:04,729 I'm working really hard on making 1048 00:29:04,730 --> 00:29:06,229 something that addresses a really 1049 00:29:06,230 --> 00:29:07,249 important threat, 1050 00:29:07,250 --> 00:29:10,159 and I don't need another box to check. 1051 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,379 And I think that's completely valid 1052 00:29:12,380 --> 00:29:14,149 and really important point 1053 00:29:14,150 --> 00:29:16,399 in the end. If going through all 1054 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:16,579 this 1055 00:29:16,580 --> 00:29:18,379 understanding of how you can better serve 1056 00:29:18,380 --> 00:29:19,819 the needs of users, we're just coming up 1057 00:29:19,820 --> 00:29:21,949 with a list of boxes that's not going 1058 00:29:21,950 --> 00:29:23,119 to help anybody. 1059 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,919 So we want to make sure that whatever 1060 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:26,479 we're learning and how we translate this 1061 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:26,689 into 1062 00:29:26,690 --> 00:29:28,789 outcomes and outputs, it's 1063 00:29:28,790 --> 00:29:31,459 something that is valuable to developers 1064 00:29:31,460 --> 00:29:32,539 and designers of tools. 1065 00:29:32,540 --> 00:29:35,059 So they say, yes, I want to implement 1066 00:29:35,060 --> 00:29:37,069 this more. I see how this will be a value 1067 00:29:37,070 --> 00:29:38,070 to me and my tool. 1068 00:29:42,670 --> 00:29:43,839 So again, those are just a few of the 1069 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:44,739 learnings that we've kind 1070 00:29:44,740 --> 00:29:46,239 of come up with so far. 1071 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:47,889 Now we're going through another series of 1072 00:29:47,890 --> 00:29:49,779 deeper interviews to prepare for our next 1073 00:29:49,780 --> 00:29:51,399 phase, which is there on the ground 1074 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:52,419 research. 1075 00:29:52,420 --> 00:29:53,619 So as I mentioned, we're going to be 1076 00:29:53,620 --> 00:29:55,899 spending a couple of weeks. 1077 00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:57,129 Our entire team is defending a couple of 1078 00:29:57,130 --> 00:29:59,199 weeks at the end of March in a place 1079 00:29:59,200 --> 00:29:59,889 called Dharamsala 1080 00:29:59,890 --> 00:30:01,389 in northern India. 1081 00:30:01,390 --> 00:30:03,609 Dharamsala is where the Tibetan 1082 00:30:03,610 --> 00:30:04,209 government 1083 00:30:04,210 --> 00:30:05,769 in exile currently is based, 1084 00:30:05,770 --> 00:30:07,240 the central Tibetan Administration. 1085 00:30:08,290 --> 00:30:09,459 So they're based there and they run the 1086 00:30:09,460 --> 00:30:11,079 daily affairs of Tibetan government. 1087 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:12,759 The Dalai Lama is based there. 1088 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:14,259 This is a variety of activists and 1089 00:30:14,260 --> 00:30:16,089 journalists and other other people based 1090 00:30:16,090 --> 00:30:17,090 there. 1091 00:30:17,770 --> 00:30:19,989 And we're going there to employ 1092 00:30:19,990 --> 00:30:22,239 some different ethnographic methodologies 1093 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,639 to Dharamsala India 1094 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:25,640 and 1095 00:30:27,310 --> 00:30:29,469 examine both the results of what we 1096 00:30:29,470 --> 00:30:31,539 find in terms of the 1097 00:30:31,540 --> 00:30:33,639 needs of the users and potential users 1098 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,399 on the ground, and also the effectiveness 1099 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:36,609 of the 1100 00:30:36,610 --> 00:30:37,989 approaches that we're trying to see if 1101 00:30:37,990 --> 00:30:39,039 they can work well in 1102 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:40,040 this space. 1103 00:30:41,350 --> 00:30:43,359 So why are we going to Dharamsala to do 1104 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,309 this? Well, like I said, we want to spend 1105 00:30:45,310 --> 00:30:45,579 time 1106 00:30:45,580 --> 00:30:47,739 with users, real users or potential 1107 00:30:47,740 --> 00:30:48,729 users or what 1108 00:30:48,730 --> 00:30:49,730 have you. 1109 00:30:50,170 --> 00:30:52,119 And this is this 1110 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,369 whole project was a pilot study, knowing 1111 00:30:54,370 --> 00:30:55,459 the best of our knowledge and all the 1112 00:30:55,460 --> 00:30:56,199 research. No one has 1113 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,179 done this yet in this space. 1114 00:30:58,180 --> 00:30:59,929 So we want to go and test some of the 1115 00:30:59,930 --> 00:31:00,909 stuff out on the ground. 1116 00:31:00,910 --> 00:31:02,019 We're only going to go to one place 1117 00:31:02,020 --> 00:31:03,439 because this is the pilot. 1118 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,679 We know that we're not going to create 1119 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,479 a robust outcome based on one place. 1120 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,729 We know that. But can we pick a place 1121 00:31:09,730 --> 00:31:11,319 that gives us a good stepping stone? 1122 00:31:12,550 --> 00:31:14,139 And we chose Dharamsala because 1123 00:31:14,140 --> 00:31:15,669 no one, there's a range of user groups 1124 00:31:15,670 --> 00:31:17,169 there. There are journalists there. 1125 00:31:17,170 --> 00:31:18,609 There are even developers that are often 1126 00:31:18,610 --> 00:31:20,499 there. There are activist groups there. 1127 00:31:20,500 --> 00:31:21,879 There's the central Tibetan 1128 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,320 administration, which is based there. 1129 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,769 Number two, there's a known threat model. 1130 00:31:26,770 --> 00:31:27,369 The main 1131 00:31:27,370 --> 00:31:29,589 surveillance threat for people 1132 00:31:29,590 --> 00:31:31,089 in Dharamsala is the Chinese government 1133 00:31:32,860 --> 00:31:33,789 now. 1134 00:31:33,790 --> 00:31:35,409 I attended India's surveillance state 1135 00:31:35,410 --> 00:31:36,879 talk yesterday. So maybe there are some 1136 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,170 other adversaries to consider there, 1137 00:31:39,220 --> 00:31:40,299 but 1138 00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:42,189 there is at least one known clear threat 1139 00:31:42,190 --> 00:31:42,549 model 1140 00:31:42,550 --> 00:31:44,109 that's validated and 1141 00:31:44,110 --> 00:31:44,469 essentially 1142 00:31:44,470 --> 00:31:45,829 verified. 1143 00:31:45,830 --> 00:31:47,529 And I think it's, well, tread ground. 1144 00:31:47,530 --> 00:31:48,879 We're going to go to one place and spend 1145 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,289 time there. We want to get as quickly as 1146 00:31:50,290 --> 00:31:51,579 possible to 1147 00:31:51,580 --> 00:31:53,319 working with users trying to identify and 1148 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:54,489 understand their needs. 1149 00:31:54,490 --> 00:31:56,559 We don't want to have to find out that 1150 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:57,819 we've wasted a lot of our time on the 1151 00:31:57,820 --> 00:31:59,739 ground trying to handle the logistical 1152 00:31:59,740 --> 00:32:00,969 constraints and the relationship 1153 00:32:00,970 --> 00:32:03,249 building that you need to do an effective 1154 00:32:03,250 --> 00:32:04,599 study. 1155 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,219 A lot of tools have spent developers 1156 00:32:06,220 --> 00:32:06,699 there. 1157 00:32:06,700 --> 00:32:08,199 A lot of trainers have spent time on the 1158 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:09,669 ground there. I'm sure a lot of people on 1159 00:32:09,670 --> 00:32:10,779 this conference, maybe people in this 1160 00:32:10,780 --> 00:32:12,579 room have spent time there. 1161 00:32:12,580 --> 00:32:14,619 So that makes it a viable place to do 1162 00:32:14,620 --> 00:32:15,699 this work. 1163 00:32:15,700 --> 00:32:16,299 And finally, 1164 00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:17,739 there's a really important interest here 1165 00:32:17,740 --> 00:32:20,109 from Radio Free Asia. 1166 00:32:20,110 --> 00:32:21,639 Radio Free Asia again is funding this 1167 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,229 work through the Open Technology Fund. 1168 00:32:23,230 --> 00:32:25,389 And if we're going to do 1169 00:32:25,390 --> 00:32:27,819 a study in one place, at the very least 1170 00:32:27,820 --> 00:32:29,499 out of all this work, at the very least, 1171 00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:31,839 what we're doing is doing our own deeper 1172 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,729 needs assessment of the people in the 1173 00:32:33,730 --> 00:32:35,859 place where this the space 1174 00:32:35,860 --> 00:32:37,689 and organizations of space have decided 1175 00:32:37,690 --> 00:32:38,889 they want to serve people. 1176 00:32:38,890 --> 00:32:39,519 So even if in the 1177 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,319 end we don't translate things to a more 1178 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,419 broad set of recommendations 1179 00:32:43,420 --> 00:32:44,559 that people can use all over the 1180 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,149 place, at the very, very 1181 00:32:46,150 --> 00:32:47,139 least, we're going to be understanding 1182 00:32:47,140 --> 00:32:49,029 more about Dharamshala and what the needs 1183 00:32:49,030 --> 00:32:51,009 of individuals are there, and that will 1184 00:32:51,010 --> 00:32:53,349 be translated and given over to everyone 1185 00:32:53,350 --> 00:32:55,449 that tries to build tools for users that 1186 00:32:55,450 --> 00:32:55,749 are based 1187 00:32:55,750 --> 00:32:56,750 there. 1188 00:32:57,490 --> 00:33:00,369 So what does it mean to 1189 00:33:00,370 --> 00:33:01,029 take a human 1190 00:33:01,030 --> 00:33:03,069 centered design approach on the ground? 1191 00:33:03,070 --> 00:33:04,119 So I'm saying we're going there for a few 1192 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:05,079 weeks. What are we actually going to be 1193 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:06,080 doing? 1194 00:33:07,060 --> 00:33:08,769 Well, as I said, ethnography is a study 1195 00:33:08,770 --> 00:33:11,049 of culture and human motivation 1196 00:33:11,050 --> 00:33:13,509 through a qualitative process. 1197 00:33:13,510 --> 00:33:15,999 It really ethnography compliments 1198 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:17,889 usability studies, compliments different 1199 00:33:17,890 --> 00:33:20,109 things by giving you the why behind 1200 00:33:20,110 --> 00:33:22,209 people's actions and following the path 1201 00:33:22,210 --> 00:33:23,859 of identifying that why? 1202 00:33:23,860 --> 00:33:25,809 Why someone does something can 1203 00:33:26,860 --> 00:33:28,629 lead to innovative thinking and 1204 00:33:28,630 --> 00:33:29,630 innovative solutions. 1205 00:33:31,030 --> 00:33:33,219 So there are a lot 1206 00:33:33,220 --> 00:33:34,359 of different ethnographic methods that 1207 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,579 can be applied, and these are just 1208 00:33:36,580 --> 00:33:37,629 a few examples. So we're going to be 1209 00:33:37,630 --> 00:33:39,459 testing a number of these out. 1210 00:33:39,460 --> 00:33:40,719 One is interviews, which I talked a 1211 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:41,979 little about before, but I'm actually 1212 00:33:41,980 --> 00:33:44,139 going to go into more detail on how you 1213 00:33:44,140 --> 00:33:45,579 do those on the ground. 1214 00:33:45,580 --> 00:33:46,749 Another one is shadowing what is 1215 00:33:46,750 --> 00:33:47,409 shadowing. It's very 1216 00:33:47,410 --> 00:33:48,489 simple. Actually, you 1217 00:33:48,490 --> 00:33:50,259 spend an entire day with someone. 1218 00:33:50,260 --> 00:33:51,169 You walk around with them 1219 00:33:51,170 --> 00:33:52,959 the whole day and you watch them and how 1220 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:54,640 they go about their daily activities. 1221 00:33:56,020 --> 00:33:57,519 You know, one example, I think this is 1222 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,469 purely hypothetical example that's that's 1223 00:33:59,470 --> 00:34:00,249 come up as you 1224 00:34:00,250 --> 00:34:01,719 know, if you're if you're designing a 1225 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,459 tool for someone, right, for someone to 1226 00:34:03,460 --> 00:34:05,259 use on their on their on their on their 1227 00:34:05,260 --> 00:34:06,260 desktop, 1228 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,619 what you decide to do and how you design 1229 00:34:08,620 --> 00:34:09,129 the interface for 1230 00:34:09,130 --> 00:34:10,209 that tool and even how you 1231 00:34:10,210 --> 00:34:12,939 design different components of it might 1232 00:34:12,940 --> 00:34:15,129 vary a lot, depending on whether 1233 00:34:15,130 --> 00:34:17,289 or not that user is the only person using 1234 00:34:17,290 --> 00:34:19,059 that computer or whether they share it 1235 00:34:19,060 --> 00:34:21,069 with only their family or whether they're 1236 00:34:21,070 --> 00:34:22,959 using it an internet cafe right 1237 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:24,189 now, that's a pretty basic thing that you 1238 00:34:24,190 --> 00:34:25,779 might be able to identify 1239 00:34:25,780 --> 00:34:27,488 on your own, but there are nuances to 1240 00:34:27,489 --> 00:34:29,589 those approaches that can really 1241 00:34:29,590 --> 00:34:31,178 come out when you're spending quality 1242 00:34:31,179 --> 00:34:32,259 time on the ground with someone 1243 00:34:32,260 --> 00:34:32,948 understanding what they're 1244 00:34:32,949 --> 00:34:33,949 doing. 1245 00:34:34,389 --> 00:34:36,549 Experience sharing just might 1246 00:34:36,550 --> 00:34:38,979 mean doing something as simple as giving 1247 00:34:38,980 --> 00:34:41,129 someone or. 1248 00:34:41,130 --> 00:34:42,509 It's also called a camera study 1249 00:34:42,510 --> 00:34:43,678 actually of different things, so our 1250 00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:44,968 camera study is something people do a lot 1251 00:34:44,969 --> 00:34:46,229 where you actually give someone a 1252 00:34:46,230 --> 00:34:48,658 recording device, some sort and say, 1253 00:34:48,659 --> 00:34:50,908 go and record your day, go and 1254 00:34:50,909 --> 00:34:53,279 go and spend your day without us around 1255 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:54,749 and record the elements of it and then 1256 00:34:54,750 --> 00:34:55,649 come back and we'll go through it 1257 00:34:55,650 --> 00:34:56,218 together. 1258 00:34:56,219 --> 00:34:58,169 Now, in this context, now that's a 1259 00:34:58,170 --> 00:34:59,579 very, very, very common use of 1260 00:34:59,580 --> 00:35:00,839 ethnographic approaches. 1261 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,429 In this context, they may not be possible 1262 00:35:02,430 --> 00:35:03,430 at all. 1263 00:35:03,990 --> 00:35:04,889 It depends entirely 1264 00:35:04,890 --> 00:35:06,269 on the situation on the ground, what the 1265 00:35:06,270 --> 00:35:08,249 threat scenario is, as to whether or not 1266 00:35:08,250 --> 00:35:10,619 you can give someone a recording 1267 00:35:10,620 --> 00:35:11,759 device and ask them to record what's 1268 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:12,599 going on in their day to day 1269 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:13,229 activities 1270 00:35:13,230 --> 00:35:15,209 in a way that doesn't put them at risk. 1271 00:35:15,210 --> 00:35:16,409 And this is part of our approach is to 1272 00:35:16,410 --> 00:35:18,599 understand what methodologies might work 1273 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,099 and might not work in the context of 1274 00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:21,659 building better in freedom tools, 1275 00:35:23,220 --> 00:35:24,239 experience sharing. 1276 00:35:25,470 --> 00:35:27,359 Get a bunch of people around and say 1277 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:27,689 instead 1278 00:35:27,690 --> 00:35:29,459 of them sharing their stories of you have 1279 00:35:29,460 --> 00:35:31,049 them share their stories with each other 1280 00:35:31,050 --> 00:35:33,329 and observe that solution 1281 00:35:33,330 --> 00:35:34,919 analysis, get people together and 1282 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:36,209 actually walk through the solutions that 1283 00:35:36,210 --> 00:35:38,069 have been presented to them 1284 00:35:38,070 --> 00:35:39,179 and co-design. 1285 00:35:39,180 --> 00:35:40,469 Get people together and actually help 1286 00:35:40,470 --> 00:35:42,689 them work with them to design solutions 1287 00:35:42,690 --> 00:35:44,039 that are effective for them. 1288 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:45,479 Now, in both solution analysis and 1289 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,820 co-design does not suggest that 1290 00:35:50,140 --> 00:35:52,289 it is not to suggest that if 1291 00:35:52,290 --> 00:35:53,999 you get a bunch of users in the room and 1292 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,859 co-design a problem, co-design a solution 1293 00:35:55,860 --> 00:35:57,059 with them, they're going to come up with 1294 00:35:57,060 --> 00:35:58,349 the right answer. 1295 00:35:58,350 --> 00:35:59,579 And actually, this is an important 1296 00:35:59,580 --> 00:36:00,989 concept that's throughout the entire 1297 00:36:00,990 --> 00:36:01,990 thing. 1298 00:36:02,970 --> 00:36:05,099 It's not the act of talking to a user and 1299 00:36:05,100 --> 00:36:06,629 then telling you what they think that 1300 00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:07,739 allows you to know what you do with your 1301 00:36:07,740 --> 00:36:09,799 tool. It's experiencing 1302 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:11,039 it, spending time with the user and 1303 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,109 hearing what they say combined with what 1304 00:36:13,110 --> 00:36:15,149 they do and how they act and how they do 1305 00:36:15,150 --> 00:36:17,639 and who they talk to and and what they're 1306 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,739 what physical cues they give that allow 1307 00:36:19,740 --> 00:36:22,289 you to interpret what their needs are. 1308 00:36:22,290 --> 00:36:23,939 I'm sure many people will develop tools 1309 00:36:23,940 --> 00:36:26,459 in this room have had this experience 1310 00:36:26,460 --> 00:36:28,149 and user comes to them and says, Why 1311 00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:29,969 doesn't this tool do X, Y and Z? 1312 00:36:29,970 --> 00:36:31,529 I want those features. 1313 00:36:31,530 --> 00:36:32,879 And then you go and build those features 1314 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:33,569 and you give it back 1315 00:36:33,570 --> 00:36:35,849 to the user and then never use them. 1316 00:36:35,850 --> 00:36:36,850 Right? 1317 00:36:37,290 --> 00:36:39,509 That's common because users often 1318 00:36:39,510 --> 00:36:41,669 don't know what they want, and it's not 1319 00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:42,839 due to any fault of their own. 1320 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:43,859 It's because it's 1321 00:36:43,860 --> 00:36:44,969 hard to know what's needed. 1322 00:36:44,970 --> 00:36:46,979 It's hard to know what, what you want. 1323 00:36:46,980 --> 00:36:48,659 And if you spend time with them and look 1324 00:36:48,660 --> 00:36:48,749 at 1325 00:36:48,750 --> 00:36:50,699 more than just what they're telling you, 1326 00:36:50,700 --> 00:36:52,709 you start to really can pull out some of 1327 00:36:52,710 --> 00:36:54,299 some more interesting answers about what 1328 00:36:54,300 --> 00:36:56,009 is needed for them. 1329 00:36:56,010 --> 00:36:56,239 And this is 1330 00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:57,749 something again that's been applied in 1331 00:36:57,750 --> 00:36:58,169 many 1332 00:36:58,170 --> 00:37:00,419 different places, in many 1333 00:37:00,420 --> 00:37:01,420 different industries. 1334 00:37:04,970 --> 00:37:07,129 So what might an interview 1335 00:37:07,130 --> 00:37:08,239 look like? 1336 00:37:08,240 --> 00:37:09,319 You know, you're interviewing people on 1337 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:10,489 the ground. 1338 00:37:10,490 --> 00:37:12,619 One important thing is what one 1339 00:37:12,620 --> 00:37:14,239 important thing is you want to ask why 1340 00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:15,199 when someone does something, you want to 1341 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:16,999 ask why they're doing that thing and then 1342 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:18,379 you want to ask them again and they won't 1343 00:37:18,380 --> 00:37:20,419 ask them again when you ask why? 1344 00:37:20,420 --> 00:37:22,129 Multiple times you 1345 00:37:22,130 --> 00:37:24,049 can really get to the core of a reasoning 1346 00:37:24,050 --> 00:37:25,759 behind something. 1347 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:27,589 You want to encourage stories and you 1348 00:37:27,590 --> 00:37:29,149 want to look for inconsistencies. 1349 00:37:29,150 --> 00:37:30,589 So it's not just about asking questions 1350 00:37:30,590 --> 00:37:32,509 about you hear something interesting. 1351 00:37:32,510 --> 00:37:33,889 You say, Wait, tell me a story about the 1352 00:37:33,890 --> 00:37:35,329 time that that happened. 1353 00:37:35,330 --> 00:37:36,949 And through the stories, you can start to 1354 00:37:36,950 --> 00:37:38,419 pull out really interesting tidbits of 1355 00:37:38,420 --> 00:37:40,159 information that can be a much more 1356 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:41,719 informative than the original point that 1357 00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:42,720 was being made. 1358 00:37:43,490 --> 00:37:45,949 And inconsistencies in nonverbal cues 1359 00:37:45,950 --> 00:37:47,659 can tell you a lot about 1360 00:37:47,660 --> 00:37:49,279 what that person is really thinking or 1361 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:50,869 doing or what they really need. 1362 00:37:51,890 --> 00:37:53,479 And finally, and this is true with all 1363 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:54,859 this, you want to ask questions 1364 00:37:54,860 --> 00:37:55,999 neutrally. 1365 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:57,469 You don't want to bring your bias into 1366 00:37:57,470 --> 00:37:58,669 the approach of asking questions of 1367 00:37:58,670 --> 00:38:00,019 people and trying to assess their needs. 1368 00:38:00,020 --> 00:38:02,119 You want to approach it as neutrally 1369 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:02,239 as 1370 00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:04,339 possible in a as unbiased 1371 00:38:04,340 --> 00:38:05,389 of a form as possible. 1372 00:38:08,630 --> 00:38:09,829 So now, once 1373 00:38:09,830 --> 00:38:11,359 we finish on the ground study in the end 1374 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:11,449 of 1375 00:38:11,450 --> 00:38:12,450 March. 1376 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,529 Now what do we do? 1377 00:38:15,530 --> 00:38:16,909 Well, at that point we're 1378 00:38:16,910 --> 00:38:18,739 having a lot of processing, do a lot of 1379 00:38:18,740 --> 00:38:20,659 analysis to do and we want to understand 1380 00:38:20,660 --> 00:38:22,159 and is still the meaning of what we do 1381 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:22,789 out of it 1382 00:38:22,790 --> 00:38:24,559 and come up with a few things. 1383 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,489 Number one, of course, a series of action 1384 00:38:26,490 --> 00:38:28,189 will take away. It's for developers of 1385 00:38:28,190 --> 00:38:30,499 Internet Freedom tools that are targeting 1386 00:38:30,500 --> 00:38:32,000 user communities in Dharamsala. 1387 00:38:33,710 --> 00:38:35,869 Number two, best practices on 1388 00:38:35,870 --> 00:38:39,109 applying these different methodologies 1389 00:38:39,110 --> 00:38:40,609 in general. Now it's going to 1390 00:38:40,610 --> 00:38:41,599 be hard to generalize based 1391 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:42,499 on one place. 1392 00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:44,239 But if you qualified and not qualified 1393 00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:45,139 enough, I think it will 1394 00:38:45,140 --> 00:38:46,140 give us a good starting point. 1395 00:38:47,660 --> 00:38:48,859 And finally, instruments that can 1396 00:38:48,860 --> 00:38:50,419 actually be employed by developers and 1397 00:38:50,420 --> 00:38:51,709 what I mean by instruments. 1398 00:38:51,710 --> 00:38:52,129 I think 1399 00:38:52,130 --> 00:38:53,299 I mentioned this earlier, but it could be 1400 00:38:53,300 --> 00:38:55,729 something as simple as here's a survey 1401 00:38:55,730 --> 00:38:57,019 that you should give to people in your 1402 00:38:57,020 --> 00:38:58,040 target user communities, 1403 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:00,480 and 1404 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:02,959 here's what you do based on the responses 1405 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:03,049 that 1406 00:39:03,050 --> 00:39:04,050 you get. 1407 00:39:07,940 --> 00:39:09,859 So I'm running a bit low on time, and 1408 00:39:09,860 --> 00:39:11,149 it's I want to skip to the end here. 1409 00:39:12,230 --> 00:39:13,759 I'm going to come back to this, these 1410 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:14,569 links in a second, 1411 00:39:14,570 --> 00:39:16,099 but really, I have questions for all of 1412 00:39:16,100 --> 00:39:17,239 you which is 1413 00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:19,489 based on what you've heard here today. 1414 00:39:19,490 --> 00:39:21,769 How how might this affect your work? 1415 00:39:21,770 --> 00:39:23,179 What's relevant to you? 1416 00:39:23,180 --> 00:39:24,769 What's not relevant to you? 1417 00:39:24,770 --> 00:39:26,569 A lot of you represent people who design, 1418 00:39:26,570 --> 00:39:27,619 develop, create 1419 00:39:27,620 --> 00:39:29,120 and use these tools. 1420 00:39:31,190 --> 00:39:32,959 Do you have stories like the ones that I 1421 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,119 shared earlier or the one I'm about 1422 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:36,199 to share? 1423 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,899 Do you think all this is, 1424 00:39:38,900 --> 00:39:39,799 you know, could be useful 1425 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:41,749 in some way or not useful in some way? 1426 00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:43,819 I'd really like to hear from you. 1427 00:39:43,820 --> 00:39:44,989 There's a form 1428 00:39:44,990 --> 00:39:47,539 that you can go to, at least I Ieft 1429 00:39:47,540 --> 00:39:49,039 dash feedback. 1430 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:50,219 You can go there and fill that out. 1431 00:39:50,220 --> 00:39:51,829 You can also send me email directly. 1432 00:39:51,830 --> 00:39:52,909 If you don't want to fill out the form, 1433 00:39:52,910 --> 00:39:53,809 it is a Google form. 1434 00:39:53,810 --> 00:39:54,929 You can send me an encrypted mail. 1435 00:39:54,930 --> 00:39:56,059 That's fine. 1436 00:39:56,060 --> 00:39:57,439 There's information about that on that 1437 00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,599 page, so I would really love to hear 1438 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,879 from you either now or 1439 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:03,439 outside. Afterwards, I'll be around. 1440 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,629 So before I know I just want to finish, 1441 00:40:05,630 --> 00:40:07,339 I want to go back to Burma for a second 1442 00:40:07,340 --> 00:40:09,230 and close out with another story. 1443 00:40:11,750 --> 00:40:14,269 This is mo to Aung MOTU. 1444 00:40:14,270 --> 00:40:15,559 When we were in Burma, we spent a week 1445 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:16,249 there. 1446 00:40:16,250 --> 00:40:18,259 MOTU is a reporter and a stringer for 1447 00:40:18,260 --> 00:40:19,219 Radio Free Asia 1448 00:40:19,220 --> 00:40:20,239 that spent 1449 00:40:21,500 --> 00:40:22,909 his entire time there, 1450 00:40:22,910 --> 00:40:24,979 helping us get our get get the job done. 1451 00:40:24,980 --> 00:40:26,449 He was an amazing person, a really 1452 00:40:26,450 --> 00:40:28,609 inspiring person, and he worked 1453 00:40:28,610 --> 00:40:30,559 really hard for Radio Free Asia. 1454 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,629 Unfortunately, MOTU passed 1455 00:40:32,630 --> 00:40:33,499 away recently. 1456 00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:35,359 He was in a motorcycle accident in Burma. 1457 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:36,739 And I'm really sad that I 1458 00:40:36,740 --> 00:40:38,569 didn't get to see him. 1459 00:40:38,570 --> 00:40:40,099 I did not get to see him after I left 1460 00:40:40,100 --> 00:40:40,939 Burma, 1461 00:40:40,940 --> 00:40:42,289 and I was hoping to see him some 1462 00:40:42,290 --> 00:40:43,489 time in the states or elsewhere in the 1463 00:40:43,490 --> 00:40:44,490 world. 1464 00:40:44,780 --> 00:40:46,909 But I'm bringing a mo to 1465 00:40:46,910 --> 00:40:48,649 because Moe too. 1466 00:40:48,650 --> 00:40:49,589 He worked really hard. 1467 00:40:49,590 --> 00:40:51,529 This is his desk, a radio free Asia in 1468 00:40:51,530 --> 00:40:53,389 Rangoon, in Burma. 1469 00:40:53,390 --> 00:40:54,199 He often slept 1470 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:55,519 behind that desk right there. 1471 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,049 He would sleep there multiple days a 1472 00:40:57,050 --> 00:40:58,789 week. He worked incredibly long hours. 1473 00:40:58,790 --> 00:41:00,679 He covered 1474 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:01,309 a lot of ethnic 1475 00:41:01,310 --> 00:41:02,929 violence that was going on in different 1476 00:41:02,930 --> 00:41:05,059 parts of Burma. He took his job very 1477 00:41:05,060 --> 00:41:06,710 seriously and did it very, very well. 1478 00:41:07,970 --> 00:41:09,889 When I think of users of Internet Freedom 1479 00:41:09,890 --> 00:41:11,839 tools, I think about you because he was 1480 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:13,759 operating in a country that while 1481 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:15,499 now it's a little warmer to him for a 1482 00:41:15,500 --> 00:41:16,369 long time, what he was doing 1483 00:41:16,370 --> 00:41:17,689 that was illegal. 1484 00:41:17,690 --> 00:41:19,309 This is his laptop. 1485 00:41:19,310 --> 00:41:20,719 It was using an unpatched 1486 00:41:20,720 --> 00:41:22,069 version of Windows and was also full of 1487 00:41:22,070 --> 00:41:23,070 malware. 1488 00:41:23,690 --> 00:41:24,919 If someone like Mozilla, 1489 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:26,179 who's doing really important work around 1490 00:41:26,180 --> 00:41:26,839 the world 1491 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,179 is is 1492 00:41:29,180 --> 00:41:31,279 in a state where he is 1493 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,499 not using or was not using tools 1494 00:41:33,500 --> 00:41:34,849 that effectively protected him. 1495 00:41:35,900 --> 00:41:38,209 I ultimately feel like that myself 1496 00:41:38,210 --> 00:41:39,439 as a technologist and part of this 1497 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,399 community. That's that's not his failing. 1498 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:42,679 That's part of my failing. 1499 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,299 And I want to make sure that we're 1500 00:41:44,300 --> 00:41:44,869 building better 1501 00:41:44,870 --> 00:41:47,029 tools to serve folks like you because 1502 00:41:47,030 --> 00:41:48,889 while much is not around anymore, I know 1503 00:41:48,890 --> 00:41:50,839 that there are many folks like to around 1504 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:52,819 the world doing this work and 1505 00:41:52,820 --> 00:41:54,849 not being protected in the way that they 1506 00:41:54,850 --> 00:41:55,879 thought they should be. 1507 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:57,499 So that's really at the forefront of my 1508 00:41:57,500 --> 00:41:59,029 mind when I'm doing this work. 1509 00:41:59,030 --> 00:42:00,859 I hope this is helpful in some sense. 1510 00:42:00,860 --> 00:42:01,879 And then really, I think 1511 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:03,139 I've got 15 minutes left. 1512 00:42:03,140 --> 00:42:03,859 I'd really love 1513 00:42:03,860 --> 00:42:05,479 to answer any questions that you might 1514 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:06,769 have. I'd really love to hear your 1515 00:42:06,770 --> 00:42:08,779 feedback and talk to anyone also 1516 00:42:08,780 --> 00:42:10,879 afterwards. So thanks very much for 1517 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:11,880 taking time to listen. 1518 00:42:21,730 --> 00:42:23,019 Thank you very much for your talk. 1519 00:42:23,020 --> 00:42:24,549 I think it's a very interesting and 1520 00:42:24,550 --> 00:42:26,619 important topic, especially 1521 00:42:26,620 --> 00:42:28,239 since I'm a psychologist and can 1522 00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:30,070 understand this aspect of usability. 1523 00:42:32,020 --> 00:42:33,729 If there are questions, please line up at 1524 00:42:33,730 --> 00:42:35,999 the microphones you first. 1525 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,339 First, thank you very much for your for 1526 00:42:42,340 --> 00:42:43,929 your very interesting speech. 1527 00:42:43,930 --> 00:42:46,029 I think the mental city shown can 1528 00:42:46,030 --> 00:42:48,069 can be used everywhere in the world at 1529 00:42:48,070 --> 00:42:51,219 home as well to build good applications. 1530 00:42:51,220 --> 00:42:53,349 And as I 1531 00:42:53,350 --> 00:42:55,509 had experience to support people 1532 00:42:55,510 --> 00:42:57,969 in other countries and other cultures, 1533 00:42:59,140 --> 00:43:01,090 these at them at the local 1534 00:43:02,230 --> 00:43:04,569 ethnological part of your speech 1535 00:43:04,570 --> 00:43:06,729 was very interesting for me because 1536 00:43:06,730 --> 00:43:08,319 sometimes you see that the people that 1537 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,449 the people do not think 1538 00:43:10,450 --> 00:43:12,999 the same about freedom that you think 1539 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,069 and relationship to your family, to 1540 00:43:15,070 --> 00:43:17,169 your two women, 1541 00:43:17,170 --> 00:43:19,389 to minority, to children, to everyone, 1542 00:43:19,390 --> 00:43:22,119 to free free speech and free mind. 1543 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,399 And so my question to you was, 1544 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,559 how did you how difficult 1545 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,059 was it? Was it for you to implement, 1546 00:43:29,060 --> 00:43:31,329 to work your work when you saw 1547 00:43:31,330 --> 00:43:33,309 that there were big differences to the 1548 00:43:33,310 --> 00:43:35,649 things that you have in mind about 1549 00:43:35,650 --> 00:43:36,759 these topics? 1550 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:37,779 I think it's a great question. 1551 00:43:37,780 --> 00:43:39,069 So the question, I believe, was, you 1552 00:43:39,070 --> 00:43:41,199 know, not everyone has the same 1553 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:42,879 opinions of you about 1554 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:44,949 freedom or communication or access 1555 00:43:44,950 --> 00:43:46,359 to technology and all these kinds of 1556 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:47,360 things. 1557 00:43:47,710 --> 00:43:49,779 So so how do how do we do 1558 00:43:49,780 --> 00:43:51,849 this work when there are, there are those 1559 00:43:51,850 --> 00:43:52,689 differences. 1560 00:43:52,690 --> 00:43:54,099 I think this comes back to a principle I 1561 00:43:54,100 --> 00:43:56,259 talked about earlier, which is not 1562 00:43:56,260 --> 00:43:57,369 only you're asking questions, you're 1563 00:43:57,370 --> 00:43:59,439 truly you're asking them without bias. 1564 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,089 You want to do the best you can to come 1565 00:44:01,090 --> 00:44:03,039 into any situation and study any 1566 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:04,809 group of individuals or work with any 1567 00:44:04,810 --> 00:44:06,369 group of individuals 1568 00:44:06,370 --> 00:44:07,809 based on where they are at, 1569 00:44:07,810 --> 00:44:09,339 not where you are at. 1570 00:44:09,340 --> 00:44:11,049 You have to start with where they are at 1571 00:44:11,050 --> 00:44:13,419 and work with them about what they need. 1572 00:44:13,420 --> 00:44:16,029 So if ultimately what's identified 1573 00:44:16,030 --> 00:44:17,859 is that they need something that is 1574 00:44:17,860 --> 00:44:20,319 different from what you think they need 1575 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,089 and it doesn't matter where you think it 1576 00:44:22,090 --> 00:44:23,589 matters, what, what they need and what 1577 00:44:23,590 --> 00:44:25,719 you've pulled out of that analysis. 1578 00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:27,969 So you know, the short answer 1579 00:44:27,970 --> 00:44:29,289 is you have to eat. 1580 00:44:29,290 --> 00:44:30,729 You have to you have to leave your own 1581 00:44:30,730 --> 00:44:32,259 biases and your own opinions out the door 1582 00:44:32,260 --> 00:44:34,329 when you go in. It's not easy to do 1583 00:44:34,330 --> 00:44:35,829 because it's your own opinions and biases 1584 00:44:35,830 --> 00:44:37,389 that got you to that door in the first 1585 00:44:37,390 --> 00:44:38,529 place. 1586 00:44:38,530 --> 00:44:39,530 But you have to try. 1587 00:44:41,580 --> 00:44:42,809 Thank you. 1588 00:44:42,810 --> 00:44:44,579 Thanks for a talk. I think you pointed to 1589 00:44:44,580 --> 00:44:46,439 some very important points, especially 1590 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,599 concerning privacy and security, because 1591 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,429 we all know that those problems cannot be 1592 00:44:50,430 --> 00:44:51,809 solved individually. 1593 00:44:51,810 --> 00:44:53,639 There needs to be widespread acceptance 1594 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,829 of those tools to 1595 00:44:55,830 --> 00:44:57,959 solve the problems we're facing all over 1596 00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:59,539 the world right now. So thanks for a 1597 00:44:59,540 --> 00:45:01,469 work, but I think that's a little 1598 00:45:01,470 --> 00:45:03,279 problematic assumption in what you 1599 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,459 presented in a process 1600 00:45:05,460 --> 00:45:07,889 that is trying to solve this problem 1601 00:45:07,890 --> 00:45:10,529 by building vegetables alone, 1602 00:45:10,530 --> 00:45:12,749 which in a in a sense assumes 1603 00:45:12,750 --> 00:45:13,750 that 1604 00:45:15,270 --> 00:45:16,859 you do all this work, which is great 1605 00:45:16,860 --> 00:45:18,329 work, which is important work, and then 1606 00:45:18,330 --> 00:45:20,099 you build a better tool and then 1607 00:45:20,100 --> 00:45:22,439 usability, which is a real important 1608 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:24,119 requirement, not only pragmatic but a 1609 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:25,769 political requirement as far as I'm 1610 00:45:25,770 --> 00:45:27,989 concerned, will solve this. 1611 00:45:27,990 --> 00:45:30,419 But I don't think that any 1612 00:45:30,420 --> 00:45:32,669 tool has an intrinsic 1613 00:45:32,670 --> 00:45:35,009 use or intrinsic value built into 1614 00:45:35,010 --> 00:45:37,709 it, and any data can be used 1615 00:45:37,710 --> 00:45:40,029 in different ways, which makes hacking 1616 00:45:40,030 --> 00:45:41,789 in the first place a puzzle in the first 1617 00:45:41,790 --> 00:45:43,829 place. But that's not what I'm talking 1618 00:45:43,830 --> 00:45:45,959 about. I'm talking about whether you 1619 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,119 think, whether you should 1620 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,309 think that there needs to be 1621 00:45:50,310 --> 00:45:52,439 a process of training 1622 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,379 of social and political activity 1623 00:45:55,380 --> 00:45:57,359 based maybe on your research that 1624 00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,579 accompanies that technical 1625 00:45:59,580 --> 00:46:01,749 and tool development aspect of 1626 00:46:01,750 --> 00:46:02,459 your work? 1627 00:46:02,460 --> 00:46:03,929 Yeah, that's a great point, and I 1628 00:46:03,930 --> 00:46:05,969 completely agree. So the point and the 1629 00:46:05,970 --> 00:46:08,369 question was, you know, 1630 00:46:08,370 --> 00:46:08,669 tool 1631 00:46:08,670 --> 00:46:10,299 alone aren't going to solve the problems 1632 00:46:10,300 --> 00:46:10,439 that we 1633 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:11,639 face in the world. It's not just 1634 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:12,599 about building better tools. 1635 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:13,499 That's not that's 1636 00:46:13,500 --> 00:46:14,909 not the solution. 1637 00:46:14,910 --> 00:46:16,499 And you know, 1638 00:46:16,500 --> 00:46:17,549 is there something else that should be 1639 00:46:17,550 --> 00:46:19,559 done? Or maybe that's even more important 1640 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:20,609 than building more effective tools? 1641 00:46:20,610 --> 00:46:21,059 Is that right? 1642 00:46:21,060 --> 00:46:22,060 The sight of the fact that, OK? 1643 00:46:23,010 --> 00:46:24,479 And you're absolutely right. 1644 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,999 Tools aren't going to solve things. 1645 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:28,079 I think that you 1646 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:29,249 know what we're doing here is trying to 1647 00:46:29,250 --> 00:46:31,049 bite off piece of the problem. 1648 00:46:31,050 --> 00:46:32,759 And the piece we're trying to bite off is 1649 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:32,969 in 1650 00:46:32,970 --> 00:46:34,259 the context of tools. 1651 00:46:34,260 --> 00:46:36,599 How can they be built more effectively? 1652 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:37,919 Perhaps the more important things, and I 1653 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:39,059 would actually probably argue the more 1654 00:46:39,060 --> 00:46:41,159 important things are larger scale 1655 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:42,989 social and political changes that keep 1656 00:46:42,990 --> 00:46:44,429 people safer, not 1657 00:46:44,430 --> 00:46:46,529 ultimately tools, even even if 1658 00:46:46,530 --> 00:46:48,419 you look within the space of internet 1659 00:46:48,420 --> 00:46:50,369 freedom tools. We're focusing on a bit of 1660 00:46:50,370 --> 00:46:51,809 that, which is the development of tools. 1661 00:46:52,830 --> 00:46:54,119 Some of the things I pointed out and some 1662 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,279 of the things that we're uncovering all 1663 00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,349 kinds of other gaps within the 1664 00:46:58,350 --> 00:46:59,069 space of 1665 00:46:59,070 --> 00:47:01,409 how users interact safe on the internet, 1666 00:47:01,410 --> 00:47:03,329 or even how developers interact with each 1667 00:47:03,330 --> 00:47:04,889 other or funders interact with each 1668 00:47:04,890 --> 00:47:07,019 other, all these different things. 1669 00:47:07,020 --> 00:47:08,669 This is not a puzzle that has a magic 1670 00:47:08,670 --> 00:47:09,629 bullet. 1671 00:47:09,630 --> 00:47:11,459 And and I hope that will make a 1672 00:47:11,460 --> 00:47:12,899 meaningful contribution to a piece of 1673 00:47:12,900 --> 00:47:13,979 this puzzle. 1674 00:47:13,980 --> 00:47:16,139 But I fully agree that that it's 1675 00:47:16,140 --> 00:47:17,249 only a piece of the puzzle 1676 00:47:17,250 --> 00:47:18,389 and that there are many other pieces that 1677 00:47:18,390 --> 00:47:18,539 need 1678 00:47:18,540 --> 00:47:19,540 to be solved. 1679 00:47:20,750 --> 00:47:21,750 Thank you. 1680 00:47:22,250 --> 00:47:24,409 Yeah. First of all, thank you for 1681 00:47:24,410 --> 00:47:26,509 this interesting presentation. 1682 00:47:26,510 --> 00:47:28,579 From my point of view, I 1683 00:47:28,580 --> 00:47:30,859 would consider it as a key 1684 00:47:30,860 --> 00:47:33,169 role. And also, this project 1685 00:47:33,170 --> 00:47:35,929 might be considered as a key project 1686 00:47:35,930 --> 00:47:38,809 for solving the problems of 1687 00:47:38,810 --> 00:47:40,909 citizens in 1688 00:47:40,910 --> 00:47:43,039 countries which 1689 00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:44,569 are under pressure, where the 1690 00:47:44,570 --> 00:47:47,599 governmental authorities do not respect 1691 00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,550 fundamental rights of individuals 1692 00:47:51,050 --> 00:47:53,509 and by resuming 1693 00:47:53,510 --> 00:47:55,819 the presentations during the last 1694 00:47:55,820 --> 00:47:57,289 space. 1695 00:47:57,290 --> 00:47:59,389 From my personal point of view, I would 1696 00:47:59,390 --> 00:48:01,579 consider there are four main 1697 00:48:01,580 --> 00:48:03,709 topics from my point of view, 1698 00:48:03,710 --> 00:48:06,859 which I would consider as necessary 1699 00:48:06,860 --> 00:48:08,149 for. 1700 00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:10,759 I would say, you know, the success 1701 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:11,749 of this project. 1702 00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:12,750 First of all, 1703 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,089 you might guarantee 1704 00:48:17,090 --> 00:48:18,349 your own independence, 1705 00:48:19,610 --> 00:48:22,189 which means there should be a 1706 00:48:22,190 --> 00:48:24,349 permanent communication 1707 00:48:24,350 --> 00:48:27,529 between organizations, 1708 00:48:27,530 --> 00:48:28,579 producers, 1709 00:48:29,690 --> 00:48:32,449 the users as well and the developers. 1710 00:48:32,450 --> 00:48:33,679 And on the other hand, 1711 00:48:35,060 --> 00:48:38,179 by doing this, you could also guarantee 1712 00:48:38,180 --> 00:48:40,549 the kind of crowd funding for 1713 00:48:40,550 --> 00:48:42,319 for, for, for, for the success. 1714 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,539 You know, on the other hand, 1715 00:48:44,540 --> 00:48:46,370 regarding, I would say, the. 1716 00:48:48,420 --> 00:48:51,089 The quality of your 1717 00:48:51,090 --> 00:48:53,159 offers means there could be a 1718 00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,619 kind of toolbox which is 1719 00:48:55,620 --> 00:48:57,779 as flexible as possible on 1720 00:48:57,780 --> 00:49:00,449 one hand and 1721 00:49:00,450 --> 00:49:02,789 could offer, on the other hand, as 1722 00:49:02,790 --> 00:49:05,549 simple programs 1723 00:49:05,550 --> 00:49:09,089 as necessary by respecting 1724 00:49:09,090 --> 00:49:11,159 the educational level of 1725 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,319 the users. Yeah, and by doing 1726 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,449 that, I would say 1727 00:49:15,450 --> 00:49:18,029 this could be a real, brilliant solution 1728 00:49:18,030 --> 00:49:20,339 for anybody because this could 1729 00:49:20,340 --> 00:49:22,319 guarantee the freedom of individual 1730 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,779 rights by using the internet 1731 00:49:24,780 --> 00:49:25,919 and whatever. 1732 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:27,029 Thanks. I appreciate that. 1733 00:49:27,030 --> 00:49:28,289 I think that your point around the 1734 00:49:28,290 --> 00:49:30,209 toolbox is part of what we're hoping to 1735 00:49:30,210 --> 00:49:31,210 try and get to now. 1736 00:49:32,340 --> 00:49:34,199 I'm not sure what when I said framework, 1737 00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:35,489 it could be interpreted as a toolbox, a 1738 00:49:35,490 --> 00:49:37,049 guide, anything like this. 1739 00:49:38,220 --> 00:49:40,289 And I think that what I 1740 00:49:40,290 --> 00:49:41,759 want to be clear again, that 1741 00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:43,529 whatever form it ends up taking and we're 1742 00:49:43,530 --> 00:49:44,489 not going to come up with the answer 1743 00:49:44,490 --> 00:49:46,169 after this project, I think we really see 1744 00:49:46,170 --> 00:49:47,999 this as a stepping stone that we hope 1745 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,009 everyone will be interested in iterating 1746 00:49:50,010 --> 00:49:50,369 upon 1747 00:49:50,370 --> 00:49:52,559 together and 1748 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,959 that, you know, if you look at even even 1749 00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,149 basic information about how 1750 00:49:57,150 --> 00:49:58,919 to apply a different kinds of need, 1751 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:00,719 finding techniques 1752 00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:02,039 and appears from everything we've learned 1753 00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:03,779 so far will provide at least some value 1754 00:50:03,780 --> 00:50:05,429 to the space. And so we feel good about 1755 00:50:05,430 --> 00:50:06,430 that. 1756 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:09,529 Thank you for your speech. 1757 00:50:09,530 --> 00:50:10,629 Oh, so sorry. 1758 00:50:10,630 --> 00:50:11,829 He was first. Sorry. 1759 00:50:12,870 --> 00:50:14,709 The most striking thing in the whole 1760 00:50:14,710 --> 00:50:16,989 presentation was when 1761 00:50:16,990 --> 00:50:19,839 will Microsoft Office be available 1762 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,659 in Myanmar language? 1763 00:50:22,660 --> 00:50:25,359 And as I'm 1764 00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,999 I'm totally not a native English speaker, 1765 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,159 and especially for those not of my 1766 00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:32,349 generation, see my parents that are 1767 00:50:32,350 --> 00:50:33,350 both 1768 00:50:34,540 --> 00:50:36,819 not completely 1769 00:50:36,820 --> 00:50:38,199 proficient with a computer. 1770 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:39,399 So, for example, they don't know that, 1771 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,949 like in all Windows 1772 00:50:41,950 --> 00:50:44,559 programs, a save command 1773 00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,319 is in the first menu. 1774 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:48,909 The fact that they don't have. 1775 00:50:50,350 --> 00:50:52,899 A way to read the interface 1776 00:50:52,900 --> 00:50:54,489 is extremely problematic because it 1777 00:50:54,490 --> 00:50:56,859 completely stops them from 1778 00:50:56,860 --> 00:50:58,989 using software in a productive way. 1779 00:51:00,030 --> 00:51:02,169 The point is that we don't really as the 1780 00:51:02,170 --> 00:51:04,799 coders, I'm speaking here as a coder, 1781 00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,079 we don't need to translate 1782 00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:08,339 the software ourselves. 1783 00:51:08,340 --> 00:51:11,009 We can just provide 1784 00:51:11,010 --> 00:51:13,259 internationalization books and then 1785 00:51:13,260 --> 00:51:15,209 anybody that is proficient in both 1786 00:51:15,210 --> 00:51:17,099 languages can do the translation. 1787 00:51:17,100 --> 00:51:19,799 And you can have normal users 1788 00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,229 multiply your user base 1789 00:51:22,230 --> 00:51:24,839 with no effort, and it takes 1790 00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:26,999 no effort for the developer 1791 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,159 to do 80 percent of the interaction in 1792 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:30,659 the of the interaction of a recession 1793 00:51:30,660 --> 00:51:31,660 job. 1794 00:51:32,270 --> 00:51:34,429 And localization can just be done 1795 00:51:34,430 --> 00:51:37,249 by anybody else, and that will 1796 00:51:37,250 --> 00:51:38,959 multiply your user base and your 1797 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:40,249 effectiveness. 1798 00:51:40,250 --> 00:51:41,869 Yeah, I think that's an important point 1799 00:51:41,870 --> 00:51:43,339 about localization. I also want to use 1800 00:51:43,340 --> 00:51:44,299 this opportunity to give 1801 00:51:44,300 --> 00:51:45,859 a shout out to a great organization 1802 00:51:45,860 --> 00:51:46,849 that we've talked to. 1803 00:51:46,850 --> 00:51:48,649 The bunch called open it up and we're 1804 00:51:48,650 --> 00:51:50,449 doing a lot of localization efforts 1805 00:51:50,450 --> 00:51:52,399 of different internet freedom tools. 1806 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:54,769 And yes, language localization 1807 00:51:54,770 --> 00:51:56,359 is an incredibly important part of this 1808 00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:58,249 work. And it's not just about machine 1809 00:51:58,250 --> 00:51:59,779 translation of one word to the other. 1810 00:51:59,780 --> 00:52:02,089 Another interesting thing that that 1811 00:52:02,090 --> 00:52:02,959 has been coming 1812 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:03,799 up more and more is 1813 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:05,269 that it's not just about language 1814 00:52:05,270 --> 00:52:06,379 translation, but also 1815 00:52:06,380 --> 00:52:07,669 cultural translation, 1816 00:52:07,670 --> 00:52:09,469 right? Understanding the context in which 1817 00:52:09,470 --> 00:52:10,699 someone's using a tool in their own 1818 00:52:10,700 --> 00:52:13,129 culture. It becomes more than just, 1819 00:52:13,130 --> 00:52:14,689 I mean, on a simple level, that might 1820 00:52:14,690 --> 00:52:16,159 mean the swapping of buttons that they've 1821 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,289 been the yes and the no buttons, because 1822 00:52:18,290 --> 00:52:18,859 that's the norm 1823 00:52:18,860 --> 00:52:19,969 in one place or another. 1824 00:52:19,970 --> 00:52:21,349 But it can go even much deeper than 1825 00:52:21,350 --> 00:52:23,089 that and not kind of 1826 00:52:23,090 --> 00:52:24,589 localization effort is really important 1827 00:52:24,590 --> 00:52:26,089 to all tools. 1828 00:52:26,090 --> 00:52:27,090 Thanks. 1829 00:52:28,190 --> 00:52:30,229 Now, thank you for that speech. 1830 00:52:30,230 --> 00:52:32,179 I have a question because you said in 1831 00:52:32,180 --> 00:52:34,429 your you said that 1832 00:52:34,430 --> 00:52:36,559 the people there want to know when 1833 00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:38,630 their language comes out of my office. 1834 00:52:39,890 --> 00:52:42,199 And you said you want to 1835 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:44,029 address their thoughts. 1836 00:52:44,030 --> 00:52:45,439 What is most important? 1837 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,329 And then I have another question did you 1838 00:52:47,330 --> 00:52:49,759 actually try to 1839 00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,369 talk to them about a different approaches 1840 00:52:52,370 --> 00:52:54,619 that maybe there's another there are more 1841 00:52:54,620 --> 00:52:57,019 important things or that you just focus 1842 00:52:57,020 --> 00:52:58,429 on what they want? 1843 00:52:58,430 --> 00:52:59,929 Yeah, I'm actually really glad you 1844 00:52:59,930 --> 00:53:01,489 brought that up because you've identified 1845 00:53:01,490 --> 00:53:02,749 something I was hoping someone identify, 1846 00:53:02,750 --> 00:53:04,159 which is I said a lot during a 1847 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:04,909 presentation. 1848 00:53:04,910 --> 00:53:06,139 You can't just rely on what someone 1849 00:53:06,140 --> 00:53:07,069 says they need. 1850 00:53:07,070 --> 00:53:08,449 You have to examine deeply what they 1851 00:53:08,450 --> 00:53:10,549 need. So I want to make 1852 00:53:10,550 --> 00:53:12,589 a point that when people said, 1853 00:53:12,590 --> 00:53:14,119 when will the Myanmar language come to 1854 00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:15,379 Microsoft Office, that's the most 1855 00:53:15,380 --> 00:53:16,789 important thing to me. 1856 00:53:16,790 --> 00:53:18,859 I didn't mean to infer that 1857 00:53:18,860 --> 00:53:21,019 that is therefore what we should do. 1858 00:53:21,020 --> 00:53:23,029 But what I was trying to illustrate was 1859 00:53:23,030 --> 00:53:25,339 that the fact that they would even say 1860 00:53:25,340 --> 00:53:27,349 that is surprising to me, and I think 1861 00:53:27,350 --> 00:53:29,929 many of us says something about 1862 00:53:29,930 --> 00:53:31,729 how we are able to understand and 1863 00:53:31,730 --> 00:53:34,129 empathize with the needs of users 1864 00:53:34,130 --> 00:53:36,229 so that that was a signal to me, not 1865 00:53:36,230 --> 00:53:38,629 the signal not being this is the moment. 1866 00:53:38,630 --> 00:53:39,679 I mean, it might be the most important 1867 00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:40,129 thing. 1868 00:53:40,130 --> 00:53:41,479 You know, I don't know. I don't I don't 1869 00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:42,559 go there yet because we didn't. 1870 00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,719 We didn't do this work in Burma. 1871 00:53:44,720 --> 00:53:46,339 That was that was a precursor to this. 1872 00:53:46,340 --> 00:53:48,289 That was just something that we learned. 1873 00:53:48,290 --> 00:53:50,449 But the most important point is not 1874 00:53:50,450 --> 00:53:51,769 that they said that, but the fact that 1875 00:53:51,770 --> 00:53:52,249 myself 1876 00:53:52,250 --> 00:53:53,779 and people I talked to were surprised by 1877 00:53:53,780 --> 00:53:54,739 it. 1878 00:53:54,740 --> 00:53:56,119 Right. I think if we 1879 00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:57,829 better understood and empathize with 1880 00:53:57,830 --> 00:54:00,169 the needs of users, at the very least, 1881 00:54:00,170 --> 00:54:01,429 we wouldn't have been surprised when they 1882 00:54:01,430 --> 00:54:02,779 said that. 1883 00:54:02,780 --> 00:54:04,100 So thank you. 1884 00:54:07,650 --> 00:54:09,809 I was thinking of two approaches, 1885 00:54:09,810 --> 00:54:11,799 and I would like to know if you consider 1886 00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:13,289 this as well. 1887 00:54:13,290 --> 00:54:15,479 One would be like copying 1888 00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:16,480 or like 1889 00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:20,069 building substitutes for products they 1890 00:54:20,070 --> 00:54:22,139 already use for tools, but 1891 00:54:22,140 --> 00:54:24,939 making them secure like 1892 00:54:24,940 --> 00:54:26,039 collaboration stuff. 1893 00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,259 I don't know if it's like a prevention 1894 00:54:28,260 --> 00:54:30,479 of like censorship, but 1895 00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,459 if you build like stuff into the 1896 00:54:32,460 --> 00:54:35,159 collaboration tool already. 1897 00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,439 So I think that's not quite as 1898 00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:39,449 creative as the approach you mentioned. 1899 00:54:39,450 --> 00:54:41,549 But then on the other hand, 1900 00:54:41,550 --> 00:54:43,709 someone else had done the analysis 1901 00:54:43,710 --> 00:54:46,079 of like what people need. 1902 00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:48,219 And yeah, and you 1903 00:54:48,220 --> 00:54:50,369 got a big study of you consider 1904 00:54:50,370 --> 00:54:52,529 that so people, you know what people 1905 00:54:52,530 --> 00:54:54,539 need and what functionality they need? 1906 00:54:54,540 --> 00:54:55,449 Yeah, that's a great point. 1907 00:54:55,450 --> 00:54:57,089 So the question was, have you thought 1908 00:54:57,090 --> 00:54:58,289 about looking at tools that people 1909 00:54:58,290 --> 00:54:58,529 already 1910 00:54:58,530 --> 00:55:00,209 use and trying to make them more secure? 1911 00:55:00,210 --> 00:55:02,249 I think that is a very viable and 1912 00:55:02,250 --> 00:55:03,779 valuable approach, and it's something 1913 00:55:03,780 --> 00:55:04,829 even we heard in our interviews, 1914 00:55:04,830 --> 00:55:06,810 which is to say that, you know? 1915 00:55:08,350 --> 00:55:09,429 When you if you're going to build an 1916 00:55:09,430 --> 00:55:11,979 effective tool, that's a fit in with 1917 00:55:11,980 --> 00:55:14,079 a user's daily process like there, no 1918 00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:15,549 one ever, I think is probably this is a 1919 00:55:15,550 --> 00:55:17,409 common term. Like no, 1920 00:55:17,410 --> 00:55:17,859 no one's 1921 00:55:17,860 --> 00:55:19,269 goal on the internet. No one comes on 1922 00:55:19,270 --> 00:55:21,309 the internet to be secure. 1923 00:55:21,310 --> 00:55:22,899 You come on the internet to email your 1924 00:55:22,900 --> 00:55:24,339 mom or chat with 1925 00:55:24,340 --> 00:55:26,679 your friend or go to this website. 1926 00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:28,659 You don't like your goal isn't to be 1927 00:55:28,660 --> 00:55:30,579 secure or to 1928 00:55:30,580 --> 00:55:34,059 to have proper privacy protections. 1929 00:55:34,060 --> 00:55:36,069 So an effective way to build those things 1930 00:55:36,070 --> 00:55:38,349 in is to have it be a seamless 1931 00:55:38,350 --> 00:55:38,769 part 1932 00:55:38,770 --> 00:55:39,399 of a user's 1933 00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,619 experience. Now that's maybe 1934 00:55:41,620 --> 00:55:42,819 not always possible, but I think 1935 00:55:42,820 --> 00:55:44,229 it's an important thing to strive for, 1936 00:55:44,230 --> 00:55:45,399 and I think so. I think you hit upon a 1937 00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:46,400 good point there. 1938 00:55:49,570 --> 00:55:50,570 Thank you. 1939 00:55:51,070 --> 00:55:53,259 Things that you came up with, 1940 00:55:53,260 --> 00:55:55,089 the people going through the web to share 1941 00:55:55,090 --> 00:55:57,459 things and they want to make it safe. 1942 00:55:57,460 --> 00:55:59,739 So because maybe I don't get 1943 00:55:59,740 --> 00:56:02,319 the whole idea of internet freedom tools 1944 00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:04,659 because like many people also in Burma 1945 00:56:04,660 --> 00:56:07,059 want to go there to share 1946 00:56:07,060 --> 00:56:09,849 safely information together. 1947 00:56:09,850 --> 00:56:11,709 Which brings me to the like, there's 1948 00:56:11,710 --> 00:56:14,109 many. There's two things like the 1949 00:56:14,110 --> 00:56:15,459 city of Munich. 1950 00:56:15,460 --> 00:56:17,859 They wanted to change to open source 1951 00:56:17,860 --> 00:56:19,939 and an old into the 1952 00:56:19,940 --> 00:56:22,149 the average cities were a city 1953 00:56:22,150 --> 00:56:24,249 worker was used to Microsoft 1954 00:56:24,250 --> 00:56:26,499 Office, and when they changed to open 1955 00:56:26,500 --> 00:56:28,269 source, the problem was not the backbone. 1956 00:56:29,290 --> 00:56:31,149 The problem was the people saying like, 1957 00:56:31,150 --> 00:56:33,489 Oh, it was a control 1958 00:56:33,490 --> 00:56:35,499 f. Now I have to do control. 1959 00:56:35,500 --> 00:56:37,089 D was open office. 1960 00:56:37,090 --> 00:56:38,289 I cannot get used to this. 1961 00:56:38,290 --> 00:56:40,029 Everything is so different now. 1962 00:56:40,030 --> 00:56:42,129 And also, people are getting 1963 00:56:42,130 --> 00:56:44,859 stuck with proper terry 1964 00:56:44,860 --> 00:56:47,339 learning when they when they use office, 1965 00:56:47,340 --> 00:56:49,299 my office and and suddenly something 1966 00:56:49,300 --> 00:56:50,679 comes up, which is a little bit 1967 00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:52,179 different. And maybe it's a little bit 1968 00:56:52,180 --> 00:56:54,309 more safe, but they have to 1969 00:56:54,310 --> 00:56:56,409 do control f instead of control, you 1970 00:56:56,410 --> 00:56:58,599 know, or whatever, and they don't like 1971 00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:00,459 it because they learned it like this. 1972 00:57:00,460 --> 00:57:02,919 And another thing is with open, open, 1973 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,739 open, um, OpenStreetMap. 1974 00:57:05,740 --> 00:57:07,989 You know, there were the discussion 1975 00:57:07,990 --> 00:57:10,719 was in Germany, how to stop using 1976 00:57:10,720 --> 00:57:12,999 Google Street Map and all that stuff. 1977 00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:15,039 The best way to do that would be to give 1978 00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:17,499 50000 euros by the government 1979 00:57:17,500 --> 00:57:20,259 to the open the always M community 1980 00:57:20,260 --> 00:57:22,509 to make these surveys, the usability 1981 00:57:22,510 --> 00:57:25,329 of OpenStreetMap even more smoother 1982 00:57:25,330 --> 00:57:28,119 and make it make it closer to what 1983 00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,729 a commercial map provider's 1984 00:57:30,730 --> 00:57:32,859 doing because they do it for all, 1985 00:57:32,860 --> 00:57:35,019 then the dulce de noobs out 1986 00:57:35,020 --> 00:57:36,819 there who have no clue. 1987 00:57:36,820 --> 00:57:39,129 And so the idea is, 1988 00:57:39,130 --> 00:57:41,739 I don't know how, how you want to do the 1989 00:57:41,740 --> 00:57:43,899 what you want to do, because therefore 1990 00:57:43,900 --> 00:57:45,789 you need a sustainable developer 1991 00:57:45,790 --> 00:57:48,069 community, which is 1992 00:57:48,070 --> 00:57:50,139 not easy to 1993 00:57:50,140 --> 00:57:52,119 organize collaboratively. 1994 00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:54,819 Even something like Ubuntu or Wikipedia 1995 00:57:54,820 --> 00:57:57,009 like these successful stories 1996 00:57:57,010 --> 00:57:58,869 of an ongoing collaborative 1997 00:58:00,070 --> 00:58:02,139 online work is very difficult 1998 00:58:02,140 --> 00:58:04,539 to to sustain. 1999 00:58:04,540 --> 00:58:06,519 So we need money for that and we need 2000 00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:09,039 collaborative, sustainable environments. 2001 00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:11,319 And I don't see how the work 2002 00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:13,509 you want to do will lead to to 2003 00:58:13,510 --> 00:58:15,339 overcome the main problem, which is that 2004 00:58:15,340 --> 00:58:18,129 people are becoming lazy 2005 00:58:18,130 --> 00:58:19,269 when they want to use the web. 2006 00:58:20,890 --> 00:58:22,509 I appreciate your point. 2007 00:58:22,510 --> 00:58:23,079 I'm not 2008 00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:24,579 sure that I agree that the main problem 2009 00:58:24,580 --> 00:58:24,969 is that people 2010 00:58:24,970 --> 00:58:27,159 are becoming lazy when they use the web. 2011 00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:28,779 I think there's lots of challenges here. 2012 00:58:28,780 --> 00:58:30,039 I do think that you bring up a really 2013 00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:31,389 good point, which is, you 2014 00:58:31,390 --> 00:58:32,979 know, all these 2015 00:58:32,980 --> 00:58:34,599 software tools face a variety of 2016 00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:36,219 challenges, whether they're funding 2017 00:58:36,220 --> 00:58:37,899 challenges, resources or challenges 2018 00:58:37,900 --> 00:58:39,009 sustainable development 2019 00:58:39,010 --> 00:58:40,010 communities, right? 2020 00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:42,609 I think that there are a lot of tools out 2021 00:58:42,610 --> 00:58:44,829 there that have those things set. 2022 00:58:44,830 --> 00:58:46,149 I think there are new ones being built 2023 00:58:46,150 --> 00:58:48,009 that have the potential for that. 2024 00:58:48,010 --> 00:58:50,739 And I think again that this is one 2025 00:58:50,740 --> 00:58:52,269 part of the puzzle, an important part of 2026 00:58:52,270 --> 00:58:53,469 the puzzle. There are many other 2027 00:58:53,470 --> 00:58:55,269 important parts of the puzzle, 2028 00:58:55,270 --> 00:58:57,789 whether that be, you know, 2029 00:58:57,790 --> 00:58:58,959 the usability decisions 2030 00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:00,789 you might make in terms of 2031 00:59:00,790 --> 00:59:01,959 how close something should be to 2032 00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:03,759 the related proprietary solution. 2033 00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:04,689 If you're creating an open source 2034 00:59:04,690 --> 00:59:06,369 solution or part of the puzzle 2035 00:59:06,370 --> 00:59:08,439 being, how am I going to fund this tool 2036 00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:09,489 that I'm not like? 2037 00:59:09,490 --> 00:59:10,929 I can sell it. So how am I going to fund 2038 00:59:10,930 --> 00:59:12,129 the ongoing development of it? 2039 00:59:13,150 --> 00:59:14,079 So I think it's important 2040 00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:16,029 to recognize, even in this work, that 2041 00:59:16,030 --> 00:59:17,559 there are many other ingredients to make 2042 00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:18,560 something 2043 00:59:19,630 --> 00:59:20,499 successful and 2044 00:59:20,500 --> 00:59:22,059 to make more effective and more usable 2045 00:59:22,060 --> 00:59:22,599 tools. 2046 00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:23,739 And I hope this will be a valuable 2047 00:59:23,740 --> 00:59:25,479 contribution to that. 2048 00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:26,709 Thank you. OK. 2049 00:59:26,710 --> 00:59:28,469 Very last question. 2050 00:59:28,470 --> 00:59:29,739 OK, thank you. 2051 00:59:29,740 --> 00:59:31,719 Thanks again for your interesting talk. 2052 00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:34,329 You made, I think, a lot of good points. 2053 00:59:34,330 --> 00:59:35,769 Like, for example, the usability 2054 00:59:35,770 --> 00:59:38,109 statements you made also 2055 00:59:38,110 --> 00:59:40,389 interesting points about like landscape 2056 00:59:40,390 --> 00:59:42,579 analyzes and stakeholder analyzes. 2057 00:59:42,580 --> 00:59:44,829 And I see a lot of parallels 2058 00:59:44,830 --> 00:59:47,259 with solution 2059 00:59:47,260 --> 00:59:49,359 methods we use in the industry to 2060 00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:51,609 design like, no, let's 2061 00:59:51,610 --> 00:59:53,889 say, normal business solutions. 2062 00:59:53,890 --> 00:59:56,049 And maybe you can give 2063 00:59:56,050 --> 00:59:58,179 us two points where there are 2064 00:59:58,180 --> 01:00:01,119 definitely parallels between 2065 01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:03,249 solution design methodologies for 2066 01:00:03,250 --> 01:00:05,379 RFP tools compared 2067 01:00:05,380 --> 01:00:06,279 to business solutions. 2068 01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:08,649 And there are no parallels or contrast 2069 01:00:08,650 --> 01:00:11,439 where you say the solution we are using 2070 01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:12,760 in industry and the 2071 01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:17,019 and the and the 2072 01:00:17,020 --> 01:00:19,059 experience we made in the interests 2073 01:00:19,060 --> 01:00:21,339 industry are not the same for for 2074 01:00:21,340 --> 01:00:23,619 between have and industry solutions. 2075 01:00:23,620 --> 01:00:25,599 Right. So so the point was that, you 2076 01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:25,719 know, 2077 01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:26,829 there are there seems like there's a lot 2078 01:00:26,830 --> 01:00:28,179 of similarities here between some of the 2079 01:00:28,180 --> 01:00:30,429 things that that we're working on 2080 01:00:30,430 --> 01:00:31,269 and how 2081 01:00:31,270 --> 01:00:33,159 products are often developed in industry. 2082 01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:34,389 I think that's almost a hundred percent 2083 01:00:34,390 --> 01:00:35,799 correct. That's absolutely correct. 2084 01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:37,899 And what we're doing here is, you know, 2085 01:00:37,900 --> 01:00:39,369 none of the stuff that I'm talking about 2086 01:00:39,370 --> 01:00:39,759 is something 2087 01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:41,079 we've invented or anything we're 2088 01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:41,679 borrowing from 2089 01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:43,809 successes that we see in industry and 2090 01:00:43,810 --> 01:00:44,229 in and in 2091 01:00:44,230 --> 01:00:45,609 other industries, not even just software 2092 01:00:45,610 --> 01:00:46,839 development industry. So I think that's a 2093 01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:48,189 really good point. 2094 01:00:48,190 --> 01:00:48,759 To answer your 2095 01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:49,760 specific question, 2096 01:00:51,250 --> 01:00:53,259 I think an example of the way things are 2097 01:00:53,260 --> 01:00:54,279 done in industry a lot 2098 01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:55,569 of times. 2099 01:00:55,570 --> 01:00:56,649 Excuse me. That could be valuable. 2100 01:00:56,650 --> 01:00:58,269 Here is 2101 01:00:59,350 --> 01:01:00,999 user, you know, user focus groups 2102 01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:03,219 spending time shadowing users, spending 2103 01:01:03,220 --> 01:01:04,989 time with them during in-depth interviews 2104 01:01:04,990 --> 01:01:06,789 with them. These are all common things 2105 01:01:06,790 --> 01:01:08,139 in industry to understand the 2106 01:01:08,140 --> 01:01:10,839 needs to then develop 2107 01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:11,349 a product 2108 01:01:11,350 --> 01:01:13,179 that addresses those needs. 2109 01:01:13,180 --> 01:01:15,189 As for what doesn't work, I think we're 2110 01:01:15,190 --> 01:01:16,149 going to uncover some of that. 2111 01:01:16,150 --> 01:01:17,139 One of the things that I 2112 01:01:17,140 --> 01:01:19,239 suggested before is a common thing of 2113 01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:21,429 industry is all sorts of recording 2114 01:01:21,430 --> 01:01:23,199 processes that happen when you're 2115 01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:25,029 studying users who want to record their 2116 01:01:25,030 --> 01:01:26,379 interactions, their faces, you want to 2117 01:01:26,380 --> 01:01:27,699 record how they're interacting 2118 01:01:27,700 --> 01:01:29,649 with something that may not always be 2119 01:01:29,650 --> 01:01:31,299 possible in this in this 2120 01:01:31,300 --> 01:01:32,439 case. Right. 2121 01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:33,969 And may be possible if you're studying 2122 01:01:33,970 --> 01:01:34,329 someone 2123 01:01:34,330 --> 01:01:36,759 in the context of a safe environment 2124 01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:38,259 or if that person doesn't have feel like 2125 01:01:38,260 --> 01:01:39,459 there's an individual threat against 2126 01:01:39,460 --> 01:01:41,709 them. But by and large, if you're using 2127 01:01:41,710 --> 01:01:43,089 an internet freedom tool, that's because 2128 01:01:43,090 --> 01:01:43,749 you're concerned about 2129 01:01:43,750 --> 01:01:45,909 some threat that often relates 2130 01:01:45,910 --> 01:01:48,489 to whether or not you can be identified. 2131 01:01:48,490 --> 01:01:49,989 So if that's a concern? 2132 01:01:49,990 --> 01:01:51,189 Notice that even in the photos I 2133 01:01:51,190 --> 01:01:52,539 had of Burma, no one's faces were in 2134 01:01:52,540 --> 01:01:54,099 them, not because they've specifically 2135 01:01:54,100 --> 01:01:55,269 expressed to me, don't put 2136 01:01:55,270 --> 01:01:57,339 my face in this, but because it's a 2137 01:01:57,340 --> 01:01:58,479 legitimate risk. 2138 01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:00,789 So I think finding what methods 2139 01:02:00,790 --> 01:02:01,359 maybe won't 2140 01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:03,399 translate effectively is going to be an 2141 01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:04,400 important part of this work. 2142 01:02:06,870 --> 01:02:08,559 Thank you. A big applause for Michael, 2143 01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:09,560 everyone.