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If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/498 Thanks! 1 00:00:11,120 --> 00:00:12,120 Welcome. 2 00:00:16,990 --> 00:00:18,149 I'm going to talk about this. 3 00:00:20,330 --> 00:00:22,559 I believe that's 4 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:24,689 going to be a bit of a framing 5 00:00:24,690 --> 00:00:26,849 I'm going to do of all 6 00:00:26,850 --> 00:00:28,140 the practical advice 7 00:00:30,630 --> 00:00:31,630 and. 8 00:00:33,100 --> 00:00:35,169 And also some some notes I'd 9 00:00:35,170 --> 00:00:36,849 like to make, I'm not sure I mean, first 10 00:00:36,850 --> 00:00:38,289 of all, I would like to know how many of 11 00:00:38,290 --> 00:00:40,630 you actually in some way researchers. 12 00:00:42,750 --> 00:00:44,819 OK, great. 13 00:00:44,820 --> 00:00:47,039 And like how 14 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,229 many of you are, 15 00:00:49,230 --> 00:00:51,539 like, not in car 16 00:00:51,540 --> 00:00:53,849 it like in programing but in something 17 00:00:53,850 --> 00:00:55,170 else like, you know. 18 00:00:57,020 --> 00:00:58,729 OK, that's great. 19 00:00:58,730 --> 00:01:01,069 I think we have a good mixture, so 20 00:01:01,070 --> 00:01:03,289 first of all, I'm not sure how it was 21 00:01:03,290 --> 00:01:05,719 for you, but since Friday the 22 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,049 13th of 2015, 23 00:01:09,050 --> 00:01:11,209 I have been to a couple of events 24 00:01:11,210 --> 00:01:13,369 and usually like I was at a child 25 00:01:13,370 --> 00:01:15,439 theater play or something, and 26 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,599 they felt obliged to make 27 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:19,699 a note on the Paris 28 00:01:19,700 --> 00:01:22,009 attacks and how we are all against 29 00:01:22,010 --> 00:01:24,019 terror and so on. 30 00:01:24,020 --> 00:01:25,020 So I'd like to 31 00:01:26,330 --> 00:01:28,099 do something similar, but in a different 32 00:01:28,100 --> 00:01:30,619 way, because exactly 33 00:01:30,620 --> 00:01:32,779 one year ago when before the 34 00:01:32,780 --> 00:01:34,849 attacks, I gave a talk 35 00:01:34,850 --> 00:01:37,039 in Paris at 36 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,859 a little squat, actually 37 00:01:39,860 --> 00:01:42,619 was an anarchist conference. 38 00:01:42,620 --> 00:01:45,859 And that talk was about 39 00:01:45,860 --> 00:01:48,170 mostly a paper from Jean Youngblood 40 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:51,619 and to talk and lecture from two 41 00:01:51,620 --> 00:01:54,019 thousand and twelve, I think, in 42 00:01:54,020 --> 00:01:55,819 Buenos Aires. 43 00:01:55,820 --> 00:01:57,979 And he's a media theorist who has 44 00:01:57,980 --> 00:01:59,659 a lot to say about centralization, 45 00:01:59,660 --> 00:02:02,059 decentralization and how media develop 46 00:02:02,060 --> 00:02:04,190 in the last hundred years. 47 00:02:05,270 --> 00:02:07,999 And he's basically he's describing 48 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,009 something which he calls the broadcast. 49 00:02:11,180 --> 00:02:13,309 Which is if you're in Germany, for 50 00:02:13,310 --> 00:02:15,409 example, Takasawa 51 00:02:15,410 --> 00:02:17,569 are if you are in the 52 00:02:17,570 --> 00:02:19,729 US, maybe CNN or Fox News and so 53 00:02:19,730 --> 00:02:21,529 on, but also a lot more. 54 00:02:21,530 --> 00:02:23,689 And what he actually says is all of these 55 00:02:23,690 --> 00:02:25,789 news sites, when we actually participate, 56 00:02:25,790 --> 00:02:27,379 when we actually listen to this kind of 57 00:02:27,380 --> 00:02:30,049 broadcast, we are actually 58 00:02:30,050 --> 00:02:32,119 creating ourselves in 59 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,459 the image of what is presented 60 00:02:34,460 --> 00:02:35,869 to us. 61 00:02:35,870 --> 00:02:37,849 Right, we are basically becoming part of 62 00:02:37,850 --> 00:02:39,739 that, we are sucked into it and he 63 00:02:39,740 --> 00:02:41,719 basically says if you want to change 64 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,089 something, we actually need to secede 65 00:02:44,090 --> 00:02:46,009 from this broadcast, we need to do 66 00:02:46,010 --> 00:02:47,569 something else. 67 00:02:47,570 --> 00:02:49,729 So that's my note on Perez. 68 00:02:52,110 --> 00:02:54,299 The just to give a bit of 69 00:02:54,300 --> 00:02:56,489 my context so you can 70 00:02:56,490 --> 00:02:58,439 actually interpret what I'm going to say 71 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,049 during the talk, I have been 72 00:03:01,050 --> 00:03:02,549 I'm going to say some positive things 73 00:03:02,550 --> 00:03:05,219 about EU projects, which is maybe 74 00:03:05,220 --> 00:03:06,959 not totally expected. 75 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:08,339 And also I'm even going to say some 76 00:03:08,340 --> 00:03:09,419 positive things about. 77 00:03:11,490 --> 00:03:13,619 How money is distributed 78 00:03:13,620 --> 00:03:15,839 and how they're trying to do that, 79 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:17,729 and that might be because I have 80 00:03:17,730 --> 00:03:20,969 participated in three proposals 81 00:03:20,970 --> 00:03:23,339 for new projects and 82 00:03:23,340 --> 00:03:25,499 by being lucky, by maybe working with 83 00:03:25,500 --> 00:03:26,939 the right people so all of them got 84 00:03:26,940 --> 00:03:27,940 accepted. 85 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:30,869 So that's going to change my view 86 00:03:30,870 --> 00:03:32,099 on this probably a bit. 87 00:03:32,100 --> 00:03:33,689 It's all great and, you know, it's like 88 00:03:33,690 --> 00:03:34,830 easy and whatnot. 89 00:03:36,270 --> 00:03:38,069 The other thing is that I also sends 90 00:03:38,070 --> 00:03:40,080 about 20, 25 years I 91 00:03:41,940 --> 00:03:44,039 created and still maintain 92 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,139 several open source projects. 93 00:03:46,140 --> 00:03:49,089 And I also participated in. 94 00:03:49,090 --> 00:03:51,189 Cooperating for like 10, 12 years or 95 00:03:51,190 --> 00:03:53,499 so community space, which is like owned 96 00:03:53,500 --> 00:03:55,899 by the people that live there and 97 00:03:55,900 --> 00:03:56,900 with lots of 98 00:03:58,150 --> 00:04:00,279 many interesting things happening there. 99 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:01,799 Here in Germany. 100 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,479 So that's some of my background 101 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,189 when you think of the EU, what 102 00:04:08,190 --> 00:04:10,509 your and the funding and this 80 billion, 103 00:04:10,510 --> 00:04:11,759 that's actually 78 billion. 104 00:04:13,100 --> 00:04:15,769 No, you are actually probably 105 00:04:15,770 --> 00:04:17,569 and that's also what was introduced like 106 00:04:17,570 --> 00:04:19,819 how to make money fast, how 107 00:04:19,820 --> 00:04:22,069 to make it like 108 00:04:22,070 --> 00:04:23,930 for free to just get it right. 109 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,470 And I think that. 110 00:04:30,420 --> 00:04:32,609 This thing that basically money 111 00:04:32,610 --> 00:04:34,109 is an end in itself. 112 00:04:34,110 --> 00:04:36,509 Like, you just, you know, 113 00:04:36,510 --> 00:04:38,609 just get it and be happy to just 114 00:04:38,610 --> 00:04:39,749 have it and do it. 115 00:04:39,750 --> 00:04:41,369 It's on the one hand, I think it's fine. 116 00:04:41,370 --> 00:04:43,919 I kind of like can sympathize with that. 117 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,469 On the other hand, I think this 118 00:04:46,470 --> 00:04:48,719 this whole notion of believing so 119 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,059 much in these numbers, like transferring 120 00:04:51,060 --> 00:04:53,219 some bits from one computer to another 121 00:04:53,220 --> 00:04:55,289 and having like all of society ordered by 122 00:04:55,290 --> 00:04:57,119 this is a bit odd. 123 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,729 So when you look upon this Bitcoin coin, 124 00:04:59,730 --> 00:05:01,889 there is a Graveman 125 00:05:01,890 --> 00:05:04,859 that says virus innumerous 126 00:05:04,860 --> 00:05:07,079 and that means strength or 127 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,240 power or something strength in numbers. 128 00:05:10,710 --> 00:05:12,539 And you can tell also probably not only 129 00:05:12,540 --> 00:05:14,699 for the Bitcoin people, but also for 130 00:05:14,700 --> 00:05:17,189 the I.T. community, which has grown like 131 00:05:17,190 --> 00:05:18,509 crazy in the last 132 00:05:19,830 --> 00:05:20,830 decade. 133 00:05:21,630 --> 00:05:23,849 There's a strong belief in the 134 00:05:23,850 --> 00:05:26,249 numbers, like in counting 135 00:05:26,250 --> 00:05:28,379 and measuring and measuring, 136 00:05:28,380 --> 00:05:30,629 also popularity and all 137 00:05:30,630 --> 00:05:31,619 this. 138 00:05:31,620 --> 00:05:35,009 And there's also a long 139 00:05:35,010 --> 00:05:37,489 criticism of. 140 00:05:37,490 --> 00:05:39,259 Looking at numbers and trying to 141 00:05:39,260 --> 00:05:41,690 understand society and other people by 142 00:05:44,030 --> 00:05:45,440 by putting numbers to them. 143 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,459 One of the first persons who actually 144 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,989 discussed this is like two thousand 145 00:05:54,990 --> 00:05:57,879 three hundred something years ago, 146 00:05:57,880 --> 00:05:59,389 and that was Aristotle totally. 147 00:06:00,390 --> 00:06:02,549 You still like many of the things that 148 00:06:02,550 --> 00:06:04,259 they were discussed at that point, 149 00:06:04,260 --> 00:06:05,909 they're still kind of prevalent in our 150 00:06:05,910 --> 00:06:07,739 thinking, like in many areas. 151 00:06:07,740 --> 00:06:09,449 One of the areas that he actually already 152 00:06:09,450 --> 00:06:11,549 discussed was what does money 153 00:06:11,550 --> 00:06:12,800 do with a society? 154 00:06:14,010 --> 00:06:16,389 And one of the advices he gives, like 155 00:06:16,390 --> 00:06:18,329 it's a longer thing that a friend of mine 156 00:06:18,330 --> 00:06:20,639 actually just gave his talk 157 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,279 to become a philosophy professor on 158 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:25,319 this particular topic. 159 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,539 And I learned a lot by by 160 00:06:27,540 --> 00:06:29,639 listening to him and understanding 161 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:31,769 that already Aristotle had 162 00:06:31,770 --> 00:06:33,869 this thing about focus 163 00:06:33,870 --> 00:06:35,969 on the use value of money, 164 00:06:35,970 --> 00:06:37,919 like how can you use it to actually do 165 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,989 something and not on the 166 00:06:39,990 --> 00:06:42,569 exchange value, like just like amassing 167 00:06:42,570 --> 00:06:44,459 money. And you saw this tendency like 168 00:06:44,460 --> 00:06:46,589 already in Athens, like two and 169 00:06:46,590 --> 00:06:48,839 three, two thousand and a bit 170 00:06:48,840 --> 00:06:51,419 years ago my 171 00:06:51,420 --> 00:06:52,920 like 11 days ago my. 172 00:06:54,490 --> 00:06:56,559 My child at the time, I 173 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,269 was preparing the talk and I was thinking 174 00:06:58,270 --> 00:07:00,069 about our studies and talking to a friend 175 00:07:00,070 --> 00:07:02,229 about it, he came into his 176 00:07:02,230 --> 00:07:04,419 room and he built this 177 00:07:04,420 --> 00:07:05,420 bridge 178 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:07,539 just by himself. 179 00:07:07,540 --> 00:07:09,189 He found some money somewhere. 180 00:07:09,190 --> 00:07:10,599 You know, he built this bridge and he 181 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:11,919 wanted to basically I think it's a good 182 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:13,749 picture. And it actually captures also 183 00:07:13,750 --> 00:07:16,359 part of what Aristotle has said, because 184 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,279 you're basically trying to get to another 185 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:19,269 place. 186 00:07:19,270 --> 00:07:20,559 You want to have a new system. 187 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:21,939 You want to have a new understanding. 188 00:07:21,940 --> 00:07:24,249 You want to have like different ways 189 00:07:24,250 --> 00:07:25,250 how we organize. 190 00:07:26,950 --> 00:07:29,229 And on your way, you need some money 191 00:07:29,230 --> 00:07:30,399 to actually do this. 192 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:31,959 But the thing is not about the money. 193 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:33,699 It's actually about getting somewhere 194 00:07:33,700 --> 00:07:34,700 else. 195 00:07:35,220 --> 00:07:37,419 OK, so with that 196 00:07:37,420 --> 00:07:39,160 all being said, let's get to the money. 197 00:07:41,620 --> 00:07:43,629 The program, the research program, 198 00:07:43,630 --> 00:07:44,859 there's many new programs. 199 00:07:44,860 --> 00:07:47,109 The biggest one in history is the 200 00:07:47,110 --> 00:07:49,599 current research program, 201 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,149 which is called Horizon 2020. 202 00:07:52,150 --> 00:07:54,309 It started in 2014. 203 00:07:54,310 --> 00:07:56,819 It's lasting seven years. 204 00:07:56,820 --> 00:07:58,949 And if you break down the numbers, it 205 00:07:58,950 --> 00:08:01,679 means that for each day 206 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,039 they spend 30 million. 207 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,529 On research projects, right, 208 00:08:06,530 --> 00:08:08,359 like each day, like during the course of 209 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,489 this conference, they spend 210 00:08:10,490 --> 00:08:12,499 three times 420 million. 211 00:08:14,770 --> 00:08:16,329 A bit more expensive than this 212 00:08:16,330 --> 00:08:17,330 conference, I guess. 213 00:08:20,860 --> 00:08:23,289 Previously, we could basically 214 00:08:23,290 --> 00:08:25,449 fly to the moon with this money, 215 00:08:25,450 --> 00:08:26,519 right? 216 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,659 We could we could never 217 00:08:28,660 --> 00:08:30,999 get very far. The whole Apollo program, 218 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,979 like from the inception in terms of 219 00:08:32,980 --> 00:08:35,139 research to actually building the 220 00:08:35,140 --> 00:08:37,209 rockets, testing the rockets, actually 221 00:08:37,210 --> 00:08:39,459 flying to the moon or the trainings, 222 00:08:39,460 --> 00:08:40,678 everything. 223 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:42,808 Was done with a similar amount of money, 224 00:08:42,809 --> 00:08:45,209 I would argue, because we should be 225 00:08:45,210 --> 00:08:46,889 it should be a lot easier today to 226 00:08:46,890 --> 00:08:48,539 actually do something like this with all 227 00:08:48,540 --> 00:08:50,039 the great technology we have. 228 00:08:51,740 --> 00:08:53,899 Except it seems we aren't even able to 229 00:08:53,900 --> 00:08:56,959 to build an airport in Berlin anymore, 230 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:58,070 you know, but it's OK. 231 00:09:02,900 --> 00:09:04,579 One of the persons actually involved in 232 00:09:04,580 --> 00:09:06,559 that research that was successful with 233 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:09,259 the Apollo was Margaret Hamilton, 234 00:09:09,260 --> 00:09:11,209 and she was the director for doing the 235 00:09:11,210 --> 00:09:13,519 software for the onboard 236 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:14,419 flight system. 237 00:09:14,420 --> 00:09:15,889 So when the thing actually approached the 238 00:09:15,890 --> 00:09:18,079 moon, they program and 239 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,599 the program is actually this paperwork, 240 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,580 right? It's the statelets assembler. 241 00:09:23,930 --> 00:09:26,509 And the 242 00:09:26,510 --> 00:09:28,069 even though this program was a lot of 243 00:09:28,070 --> 00:09:30,439 paperwork, they had a relatively 244 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,409 free organization of how they researched, 245 00:09:33,410 --> 00:09:35,329 like people got together to discuss 246 00:09:35,330 --> 00:09:36,799 certain problems, went off to do 247 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:37,769 something and so on. 248 00:09:37,770 --> 00:09:39,859 So there wasn't like a lot of hierarchy. 249 00:09:39,860 --> 00:09:41,959 It's the same way how they did it 250 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,239 with the Manhattan Project to build 251 00:09:45,500 --> 00:09:46,500 the atomic bomb. 252 00:09:47,460 --> 00:09:49,379 And it's the same way they, I think, 253 00:09:49,380 --> 00:09:52,499 created laser systems, for example, 254 00:09:52,500 --> 00:09:54,179 back in the days of the 50s, they 255 00:09:54,180 --> 00:09:57,149 actually just got like lots of people 256 00:09:57,150 --> 00:09:59,669 who are capable basically 257 00:09:59,670 --> 00:10:01,739 according to some area, 258 00:10:01,740 --> 00:10:03,539 and they just got them together and said, 259 00:10:03,540 --> 00:10:05,969 go. You know, the goal is this 260 00:10:05,970 --> 00:10:08,339 organize yourself how to get there. 261 00:10:08,340 --> 00:10:10,469 That's not how it's happening anymore. 262 00:10:10,470 --> 00:10:12,899 So the paperwork that we have today 263 00:10:12,900 --> 00:10:15,119 is we are like deep 264 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:16,109 into bureaucracy. 265 00:10:16,110 --> 00:10:18,689 And I think that's the last 266 00:10:18,690 --> 00:10:20,549 general framing thing I'd like to do. 267 00:10:22,020 --> 00:10:24,179 The one book, it's a very it's discussing 268 00:10:24,180 --> 00:10:26,819 basically the development of research 269 00:10:26,820 --> 00:10:28,379 from David Graeber. 270 00:10:28,380 --> 00:10:30,389 And I think it appeared in this year 271 00:10:30,390 --> 00:10:31,739 earlier this year. 272 00:10:31,740 --> 00:10:33,689 It's called The Utopia of Rules. 273 00:10:33,690 --> 00:10:36,359 And he discusses 274 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,699 how bureaucracy is like 275 00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:39,899 the dominant model. 276 00:10:39,900 --> 00:10:42,059 And it doesn't matter if you were in 277 00:10:42,060 --> 00:10:44,309 living in East Germany, Soviet 278 00:10:44,310 --> 00:10:46,439 Russia or or like 279 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:48,929 in the US or in Germany, 280 00:10:48,930 --> 00:10:50,099 it's all the same. 281 00:10:50,100 --> 00:10:52,709 Like the bureaucracy 282 00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:54,749 topic is there and it's developing. 283 00:10:54,750 --> 00:10:57,539 And I even argue with that. 284 00:10:57,540 --> 00:10:58,769 And you can talk to me about this 285 00:10:58,770 --> 00:11:00,840 afterwards that. 286 00:11:02,180 --> 00:11:04,069 The software we are building and the 287 00:11:04,070 --> 00:11:06,259 artists we are building are 288 00:11:06,260 --> 00:11:08,899 actually prolonging and deepening 289 00:11:08,900 --> 00:11:11,089 this bureaucracy, 290 00:11:11,090 --> 00:11:13,339 so there's tons of people in call centers 291 00:11:13,340 --> 00:11:15,049 and everywhere who are basically driven 292 00:11:15,050 --> 00:11:16,309 by software. 293 00:11:16,310 --> 00:11:18,709 They just basically just put a voice 294 00:11:18,710 --> 00:11:21,199 to an algorithm. 295 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,469 They have no agency left. 296 00:11:23,470 --> 00:11:24,529 That's what you get like if you have a 297 00:11:24,530 --> 00:11:26,239 total ordering by bureaucracy, like 298 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,519 there's no agency, there's no 299 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,169 nobody can decide anything, it's all 300 00:11:30,170 --> 00:11:31,759 driven by rules. 301 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:33,589 Right. And there seems to be something 302 00:11:33,590 --> 00:11:35,579 that we find fascinating about this. 303 00:11:35,580 --> 00:11:38,269 It's like we like to 304 00:11:38,270 --> 00:11:39,199 it's impersonal. 305 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:40,519 It's not like it doesn't depend on the 306 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:41,629 size of my nose. 307 00:11:41,630 --> 00:11:42,559 It's like, nice. 308 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:44,659 I can just go there and get get 309 00:11:44,660 --> 00:11:46,729 what I deserve, you know, 310 00:11:46,730 --> 00:11:48,619 according to some rules. 311 00:11:48,620 --> 00:11:50,299 But it does kill agency. 312 00:11:50,300 --> 00:11:51,679 And I think it's a big problem that 313 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:53,479 extends even further than what he's 314 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:54,480 talking about. 315 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,549 OK, so let's get to 316 00:11:58,550 --> 00:12:00,140 the practical parts. 317 00:12:01,460 --> 00:12:03,859 Information communication technology is 318 00:12:03,860 --> 00:12:06,829 the one thing that 319 00:12:06,830 --> 00:12:08,939 incorporates, I think, about 18, 320 00:12:08,940 --> 00:12:11,179 20 percent of the budget of 321 00:12:11,180 --> 00:12:13,039 the Horizon program. 322 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:14,359 And it's 323 00:12:15,710 --> 00:12:17,959 it's basically about all the things 324 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,359 that are going on here at the conference 325 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:21,500 and various 326 00:12:22,700 --> 00:12:23,700 in various forms. 327 00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:26,869 And what I find it interesting that, 328 00:12:26,870 --> 00:12:29,149 I mean, you as kind of a market liberal 329 00:12:29,150 --> 00:12:30,919 organization that's kind of well known. 330 00:12:32,150 --> 00:12:34,859 But there's also other aspects like 331 00:12:34,860 --> 00:12:37,249 like the main the overarching 332 00:12:37,250 --> 00:12:39,319 goal, what they state is 333 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,389 actually to do something 334 00:12:41,390 --> 00:12:43,669 with a tangible benefit for European 335 00:12:43,670 --> 00:12:46,289 citizens, not for companies. 336 00:12:46,290 --> 00:12:47,659 You know, I mean, the way they want to 337 00:12:47,660 --> 00:12:48,979 achieve that is actually going from 338 00:12:48,980 --> 00:12:50,959 companies. But the idea and that you can 339 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,269 see that actually in many calls 340 00:12:53,270 --> 00:12:54,469 is actually going a bit deeper. 341 00:12:54,470 --> 00:12:56,539 So they are very open now to open source 342 00:12:56,540 --> 00:12:58,249 stuff, to grassroots stuff, and even 343 00:12:58,250 --> 00:13:00,199 appears like in parts, you know, if 344 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,059 you're doing some grassroots stuff, like 345 00:13:02,060 --> 00:13:03,589 Freephone, for example, also received 346 00:13:03,590 --> 00:13:05,539 funding and other people. 347 00:13:05,540 --> 00:13:07,729 So there really there's an opening there, 348 00:13:07,730 --> 00:13:09,709 which is actually, I think already in the 349 00:13:09,710 --> 00:13:11,929 in the main goal, they 350 00:13:11,930 --> 00:13:12,930 have six 351 00:13:14,510 --> 00:13:15,710 main activity areas. 352 00:13:16,910 --> 00:13:19,009 And one thing that is also 353 00:13:19,010 --> 00:13:20,599 apparent, if you actually read some of 354 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,929 the Mehtar docs and of this 355 00:13:23,930 --> 00:13:26,239 ICT strategy, it's not very long. 356 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:27,289 I think it's good to read it 357 00:13:28,490 --> 00:13:30,679 is that they see that 358 00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:32,270 software is eating the world. 359 00:13:33,430 --> 00:13:35,499 It's like everywhere, 360 00:13:35,500 --> 00:13:36,789 and that also means that there's a 361 00:13:36,790 --> 00:13:38,889 different responsibility. 362 00:13:38,890 --> 00:13:41,079 And that also means that we need 363 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,929 to have something interdisciplinary. 364 00:13:45,270 --> 00:13:47,339 It people cannot hope to, like, have 365 00:13:47,340 --> 00:13:49,559 a good understanding, even though, like, 366 00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:51,329 for example, the Bitcoin people tend to 367 00:13:51,330 --> 00:13:53,429 do this to have a good understanding 368 00:13:53,430 --> 00:13:56,219 how human history actually 369 00:13:56,220 --> 00:13:58,349 evolved, you know, anthropology 370 00:13:58,350 --> 00:13:59,999 and things like this. And David, about 371 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,129 which I which 372 00:14:02,130 --> 00:14:03,929 I mentioned earlier, he is an 373 00:14:03,930 --> 00:14:06,119 anthropologist and he actually knows 374 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,429 about various aspects of the last 375 00:14:08,430 --> 00:14:10,739 5000 years of human development 376 00:14:10,740 --> 00:14:12,809 that are like 377 00:14:12,810 --> 00:14:14,919 well researched, that grounded actually 378 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:16,169 in research. 379 00:14:16,170 --> 00:14:18,539 Whereas when you find 80 people talking 380 00:14:18,540 --> 00:14:20,819 about society, you 381 00:14:20,820 --> 00:14:23,159 you often get a very like 382 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:24,809 kind of simplistic view. 383 00:14:24,810 --> 00:14:27,539 And I think that stems from the fact that 384 00:14:27,540 --> 00:14:29,879 we it 385 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,969 got so important that we somehow feel 386 00:14:32,970 --> 00:14:34,499 we are like, you know, we know what's 387 00:14:34,500 --> 00:14:36,899 happening. We can tell the world how 388 00:14:36,900 --> 00:14:38,879 things are going on because of the 389 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:40,679 importance of it, and you get lots of 390 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:41,759 money and whatnot. 391 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:43,979 So I think there's a certain danger that 392 00:14:43,980 --> 00:14:46,319 I'm going to get back to that at the end. 393 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,479 Um, anyway, these six 394 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,730 areas combined with interdisciplinarity. 395 00:14:52,630 --> 00:14:54,699 Are actually a description of 396 00:14:54,700 --> 00:14:57,549 what is going on here at the conference. 397 00:14:57,550 --> 00:14:59,919 Right. I mean, all of these things here 398 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:02,049 happen at the conference. 399 00:15:02,050 --> 00:15:03,909 So it's on that level, it's, I think, a 400 00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:05,619 perfect match. 401 00:15:05,620 --> 00:15:07,689 So let's look at how does it 402 00:15:07,690 --> 00:15:09,189 actually work? 403 00:15:09,190 --> 00:15:10,749 The what I call the application 404 00:15:10,750 --> 00:15:12,609 environment or the terms you need to know 405 00:15:12,610 --> 00:15:15,119 when you actually go for an application. 406 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:16,889 I'm going to go into this a bit, 407 00:15:17,940 --> 00:15:20,339 but I'd like to make one note 408 00:15:20,340 --> 00:15:22,499 before the the main 409 00:15:22,500 --> 00:15:23,500 way how? 410 00:15:24,710 --> 00:15:26,839 How the project I'm involved and 411 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,329 started was by personal 412 00:15:29,330 --> 00:15:32,059 relations, talking to people, 413 00:15:32,060 --> 00:15:34,069 not talking to companies, talking to 414 00:15:34,070 --> 00:15:35,479 people who are doing some interesting 415 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:36,379 stuff. 416 00:15:36,380 --> 00:15:37,339 Right. 417 00:15:37,340 --> 00:15:38,779 And when you have this network and this 418 00:15:38,780 --> 00:15:40,789 is like a perfect opportunity, like last 419 00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:43,489 year literally went around the conference 420 00:15:43,490 --> 00:15:45,319 and talked to random people I didn't know 421 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:46,399 before. 422 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:47,869 Of course, you all know some people, at 423 00:15:47,870 --> 00:15:49,999 least most of you will know some people. 424 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:51,619 But it's a great idea to just talk to 425 00:15:51,620 --> 00:15:52,620 random people. 426 00:15:54,950 --> 00:15:57,379 And and find something out, 427 00:15:57,380 --> 00:15:59,659 you know, and do some networking. 428 00:15:59,660 --> 00:16:02,659 So the application for the 429 00:16:02,660 --> 00:16:04,849 EU, what the ICG publishes 430 00:16:04,850 --> 00:16:07,019 is a two year work program. 431 00:16:07,020 --> 00:16:08,689 They want to program society and they 432 00:16:08,690 --> 00:16:09,829 publish calls. 433 00:16:09,830 --> 00:16:11,539 The calls are kind of brief. 434 00:16:11,540 --> 00:16:13,489 They're like one page or maybe one and a 435 00:16:13,490 --> 00:16:14,719 half pages. 436 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:16,249 They have all kinds of keywords. 437 00:16:16,250 --> 00:16:18,949 And then like they are about 438 00:16:18,950 --> 00:16:21,779 doing new systems, new 439 00:16:21,780 --> 00:16:24,709 at a big call like this year for 440 00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:27,099 digital social platforms, 441 00:16:27,100 --> 00:16:29,059 I think 200 million or something they 442 00:16:29,060 --> 00:16:31,519 spend on building new 443 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,909 digital social platforms. 444 00:16:34,910 --> 00:16:37,729 And these calls are basically the 445 00:16:37,730 --> 00:16:39,379 they are usually published in advance 446 00:16:39,380 --> 00:16:41,659 like three months ago, and they stem 447 00:16:41,660 --> 00:16:43,399 from things in the work program. 448 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:44,959 So by looking at the work program for the 449 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:46,309 next two years, you can actually get an 450 00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:47,779 idea of what they're going to publish 451 00:16:47,780 --> 00:16:49,009 calls on. 452 00:16:49,010 --> 00:16:50,489 And maybe if, you know, some people 453 00:16:50,490 --> 00:16:52,759 attend, I have someone 454 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:54,979 in your context attend something of 455 00:16:54,980 --> 00:16:56,299 the networking events which are actually 456 00:16:56,300 --> 00:16:58,610 kind of nice, like in Brussels or so 457 00:16:59,810 --> 00:17:01,279 you will get some more information on 458 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,219 when a call is actually upcoming before 459 00:17:04,220 --> 00:17:05,449 and what you do then. 460 00:17:05,450 --> 00:17:07,669 If you already know people 461 00:17:07,670 --> 00:17:09,289 who are interested in a particular topic, 462 00:17:10,579 --> 00:17:12,469 you need to form. 463 00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:14,029 You need to do a few things. 464 00:17:14,030 --> 00:17:16,179 You need to write a proposal. 465 00:17:16,180 --> 00:17:18,578 That needs to get accepted and 466 00:17:18,579 --> 00:17:20,409 you need to form a consortium. 467 00:17:20,410 --> 00:17:22,149 The consortium of companies and other 468 00:17:22,150 --> 00:17:24,368 organizations that can be nonprofit 469 00:17:24,369 --> 00:17:26,588 organizations that can be 470 00:17:26,589 --> 00:17:29,019 universities or research institutes 471 00:17:29,020 --> 00:17:31,569 and so on, already own 472 00:17:31,570 --> 00:17:33,839 companies, the. 473 00:17:34,890 --> 00:17:36,719 When you actually within this three 474 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,029 month, there's a deadline, when you 475 00:17:39,030 --> 00:17:41,250 submit your proposal as a consortium, 476 00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:44,429 then it gets evaluated 477 00:17:44,430 --> 00:17:46,679 and finally, which is now quite 478 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:48,719 quick, like 10 years ago, it used to take 479 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:49,679 like nine months. 480 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:50,879 Now it's like three months. 481 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:52,259 So usually like three months after 482 00:17:52,260 --> 00:17:54,059 submission, you know, if you accept it or 483 00:17:54,060 --> 00:17:55,060 not. 484 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:58,439 And all about small companies, something 485 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,839 that changed, which I find very 486 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:02,759 positive from. 487 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,149 Personal reasons is that 488 00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:09,359 10 years ago, the funding was 50 percent, 489 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:11,609 so that you basically gave, let's say, 490 00:18:11,610 --> 00:18:13,649 two hundred thousand, but you had to come 491 00:18:13,650 --> 00:18:15,809 up with another 200000, I had to show 492 00:18:15,810 --> 00:18:17,519 that you actually spent four hundred 493 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:18,520 thousand. 494 00:18:19,290 --> 00:18:20,909 And to make it easier for small 495 00:18:20,910 --> 00:18:23,189 companies, they actually now 496 00:18:23,190 --> 00:18:25,299 give 100 percent funding. 497 00:18:25,300 --> 00:18:27,879 So you get all of that plus 498 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,279 25 percent overheads, 499 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:31,669 so if you're getting, for example, a 500 00:18:31,670 --> 00:18:33,369 hundred thousand per year as a small 501 00:18:33,370 --> 00:18:35,319 company, you still get twenty five 502 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,169 thousand for overheads, like accounting 503 00:18:38,170 --> 00:18:40,299 and managing some stuff and 504 00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:41,229 so on. 505 00:18:41,230 --> 00:18:43,359 So that's actually a big, I think, 506 00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:45,549 very positive change because it means 507 00:18:45,550 --> 00:18:48,639 that actually small companies can 508 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:50,109 like like myself. 509 00:18:50,110 --> 00:18:51,489 For example, 10 years ago it was a one 510 00:18:51,490 --> 00:18:53,320 person company or less 511 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:55,989 than I had some employees. 512 00:18:55,990 --> 00:18:58,029 And I thought, well, maybe subcontracting 513 00:18:58,030 --> 00:19:00,249 is better or not working at all is 514 00:19:00,250 --> 00:19:02,109 even much better. 515 00:19:02,110 --> 00:19:04,239 And then I 516 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,339 also had my in my small company, and I 517 00:19:06,340 --> 00:19:08,529 this time I was again one 518 00:19:08,530 --> 00:19:10,659 person company, which was kind 519 00:19:10,660 --> 00:19:12,369 of fun. I mean, there's people getting 520 00:19:12,370 --> 00:19:14,409 employed and stuff like this, but they're 521 00:19:14,410 --> 00:19:15,729 kind of very flexible about this. 522 00:19:15,730 --> 00:19:17,170 10 years ago, it was a big fight. 523 00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:20,729 So that's a I would say a positive 524 00:19:20,730 --> 00:19:22,829 message, also, the paperwork is much 525 00:19:22,830 --> 00:19:24,959 better. No, it's a bit 526 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:26,489 hard to actually authenticate to the 527 00:19:26,490 --> 00:19:28,559 system that requires like some overhead 528 00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:32,219 ahead, but otherwise registering 529 00:19:32,220 --> 00:19:33,809 as a company and stuff like this is 530 00:19:33,810 --> 00:19:36,179 basically a matter of half a day 531 00:19:36,180 --> 00:19:37,430 or day or something. 532 00:19:40,450 --> 00:19:42,219 When you write a proposal to whatever 533 00:19:42,220 --> 00:19:44,319 entity, then you need to know 534 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:45,890 how the evaluation is done. 535 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,329 They have three criteria and for 536 00:19:49,330 --> 00:19:50,859 each of the criteria, they give five 537 00:19:50,860 --> 00:19:53,229 points, its excellence. 538 00:19:54,450 --> 00:19:56,489 That means how the project you're 539 00:19:56,490 --> 00:19:58,559 envisioning the objectives you have in 540 00:19:58,560 --> 00:19:59,560 your project 541 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,239 need to discuss 542 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,429 the state of the art, like what 543 00:20:05,430 --> 00:20:07,379 is currently in that field, what you are 544 00:20:07,380 --> 00:20:08,909 doing something. 545 00:20:08,910 --> 00:20:10,839 What is the state of the art? 546 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,209 And then how do you go, 547 00:20:13,210 --> 00:20:15,279 how do you intend to go beyond that, like 548 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:16,479 what are you doing, what you're trying to 549 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:17,889 do with this research project? 550 00:20:17,890 --> 00:20:19,359 And it needs to be risky. 551 00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:21,609 It needs to be bold, like not I'm 552 00:20:21,610 --> 00:20:23,799 doing a small increment improving 553 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:24,939 like the subsystem. 554 00:20:24,940 --> 00:20:26,019 That's not enough. 555 00:20:26,020 --> 00:20:28,269 Like it needs to be like something that 556 00:20:28,270 --> 00:20:30,549 spends over like two or three years 557 00:20:30,550 --> 00:20:32,799 and involves maybe like 10 people 558 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,109 working on the project and and being 559 00:20:35,110 --> 00:20:36,519 on the edge of research. 560 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:38,109 That's the idea. 561 00:20:38,110 --> 00:20:40,539 Impact is the basically 562 00:20:40,540 --> 00:20:42,939 the market liberal aspect 563 00:20:42,940 --> 00:20:45,009 because they basically perceive 564 00:20:45,010 --> 00:20:47,229 the succession of the improving 565 00:20:47,230 --> 00:20:49,389 of society through 566 00:20:49,390 --> 00:20:52,299 funding, creating 567 00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:55,059 an European market and strengthening 568 00:20:55,060 --> 00:20:57,699 the European market against 569 00:20:57,700 --> 00:21:00,219 the evil Asians and the evil US 570 00:21:00,220 --> 00:21:02,409 and even Brazil and whatnot. 571 00:21:02,410 --> 00:21:04,359 You know, so it's kind of like this 572 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:06,459 thinking you will find and 573 00:21:07,630 --> 00:21:09,189 basically you need to make an argument 574 00:21:09,190 --> 00:21:11,589 how this is relating to market 575 00:21:11,590 --> 00:21:14,049 activities, how something actually 576 00:21:14,050 --> 00:21:15,369 this research might be 577 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:18,969 the basis for some products 578 00:21:18,970 --> 00:21:22,089 to be developed and some further 579 00:21:22,090 --> 00:21:24,309 activities that are 580 00:21:24,310 --> 00:21:25,689 economic. 581 00:21:25,690 --> 00:21:28,209 You know, and then 582 00:21:28,210 --> 00:21:29,210 the third criterion 583 00:21:30,910 --> 00:21:33,279 is quality and efficiency. 584 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,829 And that refers to 585 00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:37,929 how well do you actually allocate the 586 00:21:37,930 --> 00:21:39,939 money between the partners? 587 00:21:39,940 --> 00:21:42,069 How well are the people 588 00:21:42,070 --> 00:21:44,289 who are involved in the project qualified 589 00:21:44,290 --> 00:21:45,939 to actually do this work? 590 00:21:45,940 --> 00:21:48,129 Is there some kind of we need to 591 00:21:48,130 --> 00:21:50,199 create some trust that you're 592 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:51,789 not just having some grand idea, but you 593 00:21:51,790 --> 00:21:53,769 can actually execute it and actually do 594 00:21:53,770 --> 00:21:55,839 it? So basically, this is where 595 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,479 you bring in past open source projects, 596 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,519 past other projects you did and 597 00:22:01,780 --> 00:22:03,849 and the scientists also that needs to 598 00:22:03,850 --> 00:22:05,949 be involved because you also 599 00:22:05,950 --> 00:22:07,149 need to publish papers. 600 00:22:07,150 --> 00:22:09,009 But not only I mean, that's only just one 601 00:22:09,010 --> 00:22:10,419 aspect. 602 00:22:10,420 --> 00:22:11,499 They also need to have some 603 00:22:12,820 --> 00:22:14,950 track record or that helps at least. 604 00:22:17,660 --> 00:22:19,729 The evaluation 605 00:22:19,730 --> 00:22:22,099 process, I think, is actually somewhat 606 00:22:22,100 --> 00:22:23,269 like I said, I mean, one of these 607 00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:24,559 positive statements actually somewhat 608 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:25,939 reasonable. 609 00:22:25,940 --> 00:22:28,339 It's when you send in your proposal, 610 00:22:28,340 --> 00:22:31,039 it gets disclosed to independent 611 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:32,149 review us. 612 00:22:32,150 --> 00:22:34,219 These are people who are 613 00:22:34,220 --> 00:22:36,949 not employed by the European Union. 614 00:22:36,950 --> 00:22:38,480 They actually get a daily 615 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,749 honorarium of 450 euros. 616 00:22:43,750 --> 00:22:45,969 And they get sent 617 00:22:45,970 --> 00:22:48,399 nowadays, they used to actually convene 618 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,219 in some room, which was sealed. 619 00:22:51,220 --> 00:22:53,139 Now it's actually allowed before that 620 00:22:53,140 --> 00:22:55,299 they get the proposal remotely so they 621 00:22:55,300 --> 00:22:57,099 can actually do Internet research, which 622 00:22:57,100 --> 00:22:58,539 they couldn't do before. 623 00:22:58,540 --> 00:22:59,979 They're going to cross-check what you're 624 00:22:59,980 --> 00:23:02,169 saying in their proposal against like 625 00:23:02,170 --> 00:23:03,489 the real world. 626 00:23:03,490 --> 00:23:04,490 Right. 627 00:23:04,930 --> 00:23:05,930 And 628 00:23:07,390 --> 00:23:09,489 the these independent reviewers 629 00:23:09,490 --> 00:23:11,769 also independently give 630 00:23:11,770 --> 00:23:14,049 free times up to five points 631 00:23:14,050 --> 00:23:15,459 excellence. 632 00:23:15,460 --> 00:23:17,529 How well are you going beyond state 633 00:23:17,530 --> 00:23:19,419 of the art impact? 634 00:23:19,420 --> 00:23:22,059 How it's like helping the economy 635 00:23:22,060 --> 00:23:23,060 quality. 636 00:23:23,830 --> 00:23:25,949 Are you up to five points 637 00:23:25,950 --> 00:23:26,969 for each? 638 00:23:26,970 --> 00:23:29,039 It gets summed up and if 639 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:30,989 two regulars who are reviewing the same 640 00:23:30,990 --> 00:23:33,059 proposal disagree, they 641 00:23:33,060 --> 00:23:35,309 need to talk to each other and either 642 00:23:35,310 --> 00:23:37,529 convince each other or I think 643 00:23:37,530 --> 00:23:39,479 the average is taking, I'm not sure, but 644 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:40,859 I think they can get a chance. 645 00:23:40,860 --> 00:23:42,629 Like someone says, well, quality is 646 00:23:42,630 --> 00:23:43,829 really just three out of five. 647 00:23:43,830 --> 00:23:44,939 And the other says, no, it's actually 648 00:23:44,940 --> 00:23:46,979 five. It's because blah, blah. 649 00:23:46,980 --> 00:23:48,599 And then they can actually maybe say for 650 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,179 all that you can agree on five, it's like 651 00:23:51,180 --> 00:23:52,499 this is an independent process 652 00:23:53,700 --> 00:23:55,229 between these two reviewers. 653 00:23:55,230 --> 00:23:56,669 And it may be there might also be I'm not 654 00:23:56,670 --> 00:23:57,989 sure about this and also be other 655 00:23:57,990 --> 00:24:00,059 reviewers who then also look at this 656 00:24:00,060 --> 00:24:01,529 in case of conflict. 657 00:24:01,530 --> 00:24:02,939 That changes also a bit. 658 00:24:02,940 --> 00:24:04,619 And it depends also a bit on the call, 659 00:24:06,060 --> 00:24:07,060 the accumulation 660 00:24:08,130 --> 00:24:10,769 of these points up to 15 661 00:24:10,770 --> 00:24:13,409 and there's no threshold. 662 00:24:13,410 --> 00:24:15,119 So it's not like if you have 13, you are 663 00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:17,219 accepted or something or 40, not 664 00:24:17,220 --> 00:24:19,439 even 50, and basically it depends 665 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,539 on the number of proposals for 666 00:24:21,540 --> 00:24:24,039 the particular call. 667 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,779 So if you have 30 proposals. 668 00:24:26,780 --> 00:24:28,939 And you have five projects which 669 00:24:28,940 --> 00:24:31,069 can get accepted, the typical some two 670 00:24:31,070 --> 00:24:33,169 million, but it can be also five, 671 00:24:33,170 --> 00:24:34,609 but typically it's like two, three 672 00:24:34,610 --> 00:24:36,919 million for a consortium. 673 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:38,989 Um, you will get five projects 674 00:24:38,990 --> 00:24:40,999 in there and you have 30 proposals. 675 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,339 And then basically the highest 676 00:24:43,340 --> 00:24:45,499 ranking ones first take 677 00:24:45,500 --> 00:24:47,529 up the positions. 678 00:24:47,530 --> 00:24:49,599 So maybe it's 14 points or 13 points 679 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:50,919 that are enough, that depends on the 680 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:52,719 number of proposals in the budget and so 681 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:53,859 on. 682 00:24:53,860 --> 00:24:55,479 You also have to know that there's a 683 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,669 whole industry trying to grab this 684 00:24:57,670 --> 00:24:58,759 money. 685 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,159 So there's various companies actually 686 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:01,160 offering 687 00:25:02,260 --> 00:25:04,659 services to write 688 00:25:04,660 --> 00:25:06,129 proposals. 689 00:25:06,130 --> 00:25:08,679 So about what I know from many people 690 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,959 in the area, about half 691 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,210 the proposals are basically. 692 00:25:14,570 --> 00:25:16,999 Not acceptable at all, because 693 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,249 either they are 694 00:25:19,250 --> 00:25:21,529 very well written, because there 695 00:25:21,530 --> 00:25:23,359 that has been done professionally by 696 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:25,339 people who do this like for the 20th time 697 00:25:25,340 --> 00:25:27,589 or so, but there's no content. 698 00:25:28,890 --> 00:25:31,349 Right, that's no excellence, basically, 699 00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:33,029 it's like lots of buzzwords, but, you 700 00:25:33,030 --> 00:25:35,309 know, and then you have actually 701 00:25:35,310 --> 00:25:37,499 also the other extreme where 702 00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:39,720 it's like a very ambitious project, 703 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,509 but it's like impossible to understand 704 00:25:42,510 --> 00:25:43,679 what they're actually trying to do. 705 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,069 You know, then on the structure 706 00:25:47,070 --> 00:25:49,049 of their work, it's like implausible or 707 00:25:49,050 --> 00:25:50,489 something like this. 708 00:25:50,490 --> 00:25:52,529 And they are many people actually 709 00:25:52,530 --> 00:25:53,849 resubmit. 710 00:25:53,850 --> 00:25:55,829 They just try again and modify it a bit, 711 00:25:55,830 --> 00:25:57,449 maybe in a slightly different consortium, 712 00:25:57,450 --> 00:25:58,619 do it again. 713 00:25:58,620 --> 00:25:59,969 These are about half the proposals. 714 00:25:59,970 --> 00:26:01,769 And they're typically so actually, you 715 00:26:01,770 --> 00:26:03,839 only have if you actually pass these two 716 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,179 barriers, then you only have like 717 00:26:06,180 --> 00:26:07,979 10 to 15 competitors. 718 00:26:07,980 --> 00:26:09,869 So then the chances actually increase. 719 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,759 Yes, so that's I think 720 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,069 well, the thing is, 721 00:26:19,070 --> 00:26:20,629 it's very easy to criticize. 722 00:26:20,630 --> 00:26:22,669 I mean, as a gated community, it's very 723 00:26:22,670 --> 00:26:24,349 easy to criticize 724 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,929 the EU with all the bureaucracy and, 725 00:26:27,930 --> 00:26:29,599 you know, all the power structures and 726 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,400 the hidden agendas and whatnot. 727 00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:35,139 And I think that's not entirely fair, 728 00:26:35,140 --> 00:26:37,539 because I've been involved 729 00:26:37,540 --> 00:26:39,609 also in program committees like 730 00:26:39,610 --> 00:26:42,099 doing accepting talks 731 00:26:42,100 --> 00:26:44,439 and so on, and these were community 732 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:45,549 conferences. 733 00:26:45,550 --> 00:26:47,799 And I can say 734 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,799 from my own experience that 735 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,439 the selection process is 736 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,689 in many places kind of random. 737 00:26:55,690 --> 00:26:57,909 It depends on some people taking a stance 738 00:26:57,910 --> 00:26:59,889 and claiming this is a great talker, 739 00:26:59,890 --> 00:27:01,629 that's a great person who holds the talk 740 00:27:01,630 --> 00:27:02,229 and so on. 741 00:27:02,230 --> 00:27:04,089 And it's not really a transparent 742 00:27:04,090 --> 00:27:06,039 process. I mean, the typical mail you get 743 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,289 when you submit something to 744 00:27:08,290 --> 00:27:10,449 a conference, including the 30 to 745 00:27:10,450 --> 00:27:12,399 see free, is how we are sorry. 746 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,069 There were so many interesting proposals 747 00:27:16,450 --> 00:27:18,489 and so we had to choose and it was really 748 00:27:18,490 --> 00:27:19,599 hard problem. 749 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,129 You took like every effort and so on and 750 00:27:21,130 --> 00:27:23,939 so on. And then just, you 751 00:27:23,940 --> 00:27:26,679 know, no information, actually 752 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:27,869 no information on, 753 00:27:28,910 --> 00:27:30,999 OK, what aspect you know, is it 754 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:31,899 like the topic? 755 00:27:31,900 --> 00:27:32,799 It's not interesting. 756 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,869 Or like couldn't you understand 757 00:27:34,870 --> 00:27:36,579 what I want to actually do in this talk 758 00:27:36,580 --> 00:27:37,779 or something like this? 759 00:27:37,780 --> 00:27:40,029 Whereas with the things whereas 760 00:27:40,030 --> 00:27:42,129 with the you actually get 761 00:27:42,130 --> 00:27:44,229 the numbers, you see, OK, they 762 00:27:44,230 --> 00:27:45,969 actually thought the excellence of the 763 00:27:45,970 --> 00:27:47,019 they're right. 764 00:27:47,020 --> 00:27:48,999 It's like five points rate. 765 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,189 So the highest score you can reach, 766 00:27:51,190 --> 00:27:53,409 they think there's 767 00:27:53,410 --> 00:27:54,429 even a good impact. 768 00:27:54,430 --> 00:27:55,430 Maybe it's for. 769 00:27:56,380 --> 00:27:58,479 And they think the quantity is actually 770 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,399 just three and they actually even 771 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,439 sometimes have sentences explaining why 772 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,899 they think it's three, so it's actually 773 00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:06,729 somewhat useful feedback because it means 774 00:28:06,730 --> 00:28:08,259 when you get like Excellence five, for 775 00:28:08,260 --> 00:28:10,549 example, that you can stick to the idea 776 00:28:10,550 --> 00:28:12,159 and maybe resubmit, but actually have to 777 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,219 work a bit more on other 778 00:28:15,220 --> 00:28:17,589 contexts and other areas 779 00:28:17,590 --> 00:28:19,749 of your proposal or the other way 780 00:28:19,750 --> 00:28:20,750 round. 781 00:28:21,970 --> 00:28:23,709 I know, for example, that's a very 782 00:28:23,710 --> 00:28:24,909 interesting project. 783 00:28:24,910 --> 00:28:26,469 I know some people, they are not directly 784 00:28:26,470 --> 00:28:28,809 involved called the interplanetary file 785 00:28:28,810 --> 00:28:29,919 system. 786 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:31,629 It's about a decentralized web. 787 00:28:31,630 --> 00:28:33,669 And many people actually and several 788 00:28:33,670 --> 00:28:35,109 conferences have been very interested in 789 00:28:35,110 --> 00:28:37,329 this. There have been nine 790 00:28:37,330 --> 00:28:39,549 talks submitted to this 791 00:28:39,550 --> 00:28:41,439 conference from India, from multiple 792 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,779 people, and they have been all rejected 793 00:28:43,780 --> 00:28:45,289 and they have no clue why. 794 00:28:46,390 --> 00:28:48,399 Right. So this whole thing that you as 795 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,619 bad and they are doing their their 796 00:28:50,620 --> 00:28:52,849 intransparent and so on, I think it's 797 00:28:52,850 --> 00:28:55,059 it's also good to look at it like 798 00:28:55,060 --> 00:28:55,659 I'll be actually. 799 00:28:55,660 --> 00:28:56,660 Really. 800 00:29:12,020 --> 00:29:13,759 Saying, you give me this, I can give you 801 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,469 this and so on. 802 00:29:15,470 --> 00:29:17,359 It's a difficult thing, actually, if you 803 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,819 actually put yourself into the position 804 00:29:19,820 --> 00:29:20,820 they're. 805 00:29:22,020 --> 00:29:24,269 When you actually get accepted in 806 00:29:24,270 --> 00:29:26,399 accord with your proposal, then, 807 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,619 of course, the thing is actually carrying 808 00:29:28,620 --> 00:29:31,259 out the project 809 00:29:31,260 --> 00:29:33,479 and because you have to do planning 810 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,879 so far ahead, like free, free 811 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,129 for years, actually, when you start with 812 00:29:38,130 --> 00:29:40,259 envisioning the project up until 813 00:29:40,260 --> 00:29:41,789 completion, it's four years. 814 00:29:41,790 --> 00:29:43,650 Who can foresee four years of their life 815 00:29:46,380 --> 00:29:48,269 then the kind of collaboration you do 816 00:29:48,270 --> 00:29:49,799 there and the kind of people you pull 817 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,719 into the project, how you deal with 818 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,359 somebody, you know, falling out because 819 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,399 he or she gets a child or something 820 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:57,389 happens and so on. 821 00:29:57,390 --> 00:29:58,559 And then you have to deal with all of 822 00:29:58,560 --> 00:29:59,819 that as well. 823 00:29:59,820 --> 00:30:01,919 And of course, you have to you 824 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,679 have to deliver the only 825 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,109 legally binding things you promise 826 00:30:07,110 --> 00:30:09,209 to the EU, which are 827 00:30:09,210 --> 00:30:11,159 like you have this 60 page proposal, 828 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:12,160 which is typical. 829 00:30:12,910 --> 00:30:14,919 And that's like 15 pages, which are your 830 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,929 work packages where you actually say, OK, 831 00:30:16,930 --> 00:30:18,759 we have these six work packages, that 832 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,009 also a typical thing, that's multiple 833 00:30:21,010 --> 00:30:22,929 partners, that's usually a lead partner 834 00:30:22,930 --> 00:30:24,789 in each work package. And we have for 835 00:30:24,790 --> 00:30:27,819 this book package three deliverables, 836 00:30:27,820 --> 00:30:29,979 a research paper on this release 837 00:30:29,980 --> 00:30:32,259 of this software on that and whatever. 838 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:34,569 And you have this for all of the work 839 00:30:34,570 --> 00:30:37,179 packages and these deliverables. 840 00:30:37,180 --> 00:30:39,759 They are the legal promises 841 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,289 that you do. 842 00:30:41,290 --> 00:30:43,359 If you don't produce this, you 843 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:44,799 will get a problem actually getting out 844 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,009 of the money or you get pre-payment 845 00:30:48,010 --> 00:30:49,699 and then you have to pay it back. 846 00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:52,269 That actually happens like that happens, 847 00:30:52,270 --> 00:30:54,429 but it's kind of unusual. 848 00:30:54,430 --> 00:30:56,499 So basically, in your proposal, 849 00:30:56,500 --> 00:30:58,959 you give all of the context 850 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,149 that is important to understand 851 00:31:01,150 --> 00:31:02,979 the work packages and the work packages 852 00:31:02,980 --> 00:31:05,079 are the primary and the deliverables 853 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,299 are then for the review as the primary 854 00:31:07,300 --> 00:31:08,409 focus of attention. 855 00:31:08,410 --> 00:31:10,479 They look at this like how much 856 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,249 money per work package, what are the 857 00:31:12,250 --> 00:31:13,239 various aspects? 858 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:14,949 How does it all relate to each other? 859 00:31:14,950 --> 00:31:17,079 Does it look like each partner is just 860 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,149 doing their own thing and they actually 861 00:31:19,150 --> 00:31:20,799 try to avoid to talk to each other and 862 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,239 just want to get their product through 863 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:23,289 and stuff like this? 864 00:31:23,290 --> 00:31:24,669 You know, this is actually what they look 865 00:31:24,670 --> 00:31:27,129 at, like how many partners involved 866 00:31:27,130 --> 00:31:28,689 do they actually intend to collaborate 867 00:31:28,690 --> 00:31:29,690 and so on. 868 00:31:30,790 --> 00:31:32,259 And then, of course, you also have to do 869 00:31:32,260 --> 00:31:33,699 financials and reporting. 870 00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:35,829 And I can say that, 871 00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:38,139 yes, it's a bit of effort, but it's 872 00:31:38,140 --> 00:31:40,239 not actually insurmountable. 873 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,339 I've been with national programs in 874 00:31:42,340 --> 00:31:44,079 Germany and they have. 875 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,179 Well, I hope nobody's listening that 876 00:31:46,180 --> 00:31:47,500 I'm not actually intending to go. 877 00:31:49,060 --> 00:31:51,339 It hasn't been as actually that you 878 00:31:51,340 --> 00:31:53,439 this horizon or this framework program, 879 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,599 I think has a lot of rational, let's 880 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,639 put it positively and operational 881 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,459 processes. So also when, 882 00:32:00,460 --> 00:32:02,139 for example, when one partner actually 883 00:32:02,140 --> 00:32:04,419 can provide the the work 884 00:32:04,420 --> 00:32:06,039 because somebody dropped out who was like 885 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,229 qualified to do it, then shifting some 886 00:32:08,230 --> 00:32:10,149 budget to another partner, it's actually 887 00:32:10,150 --> 00:32:12,669 quite possible. And this is where 888 00:32:12,670 --> 00:32:14,829 the initial trust 889 00:32:14,830 --> 00:32:17,619 and the people relations come in, 890 00:32:17,620 --> 00:32:19,449 because if if you have a discussion in 891 00:32:19,450 --> 00:32:21,399 the consortium between companies who 892 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,469 actually distrust each other, 893 00:32:23,470 --> 00:32:24,470 which happens a lot, 894 00:32:25,570 --> 00:32:27,459 then something like shifting budget to 895 00:32:27,460 --> 00:32:30,099 reach a goal is going to be very hard. 896 00:32:30,100 --> 00:32:32,679 And that can only be prevented, I think, 897 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,409 by people actually, you know, 898 00:32:35,410 --> 00:32:36,849 somewhat trusting each other that they 899 00:32:36,850 --> 00:32:39,519 don't just want to grab money and 900 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:40,989 they want to give anything and contribute 901 00:32:40,990 --> 00:32:42,669 and so on. That's really something that 902 00:32:42,670 --> 00:32:43,929 you can resolve on the people level. 903 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,879 So an example now for the current 904 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,949 call that a number of people 905 00:32:50,950 --> 00:32:51,950 I'm involved with. 906 00:32:54,250 --> 00:32:56,109 Went in and actually got it, and it's 907 00:32:56,110 --> 00:32:58,239 starting in January, was that and 908 00:32:58,240 --> 00:32:59,859 this is an example of the 909 00:32:59,860 --> 00:33:02,469 multidisciplinary interdisciplinary 910 00:33:02,470 --> 00:33:04,839 tone and aspect that is in many. 911 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:06,129 And I think it's very important and it 912 00:33:06,130 --> 00:33:08,769 makes a lot of sense in many ICT 913 00:33:08,770 --> 00:33:10,039 information, communication technology 914 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:11,839 stuff, just like here at the conference. 915 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,049 Basically, they 916 00:33:14,050 --> 00:33:16,359 wanted to have something and a 917 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,819 research project that actually does 918 00:33:18,820 --> 00:33:21,519 technological developments, addressing 919 00:33:22,870 --> 00:33:24,969 anonymity, ethics, privacy, 920 00:33:24,970 --> 00:33:26,259 preservation and so on. 921 00:33:26,260 --> 00:33:28,509 So obviously a topic that is 922 00:33:28,510 --> 00:33:30,699 tied in part, at least 923 00:33:30,700 --> 00:33:33,219 also to to a reaction also within 924 00:33:33,220 --> 00:33:35,469 parts of the EU people 925 00:33:35,470 --> 00:33:36,909 regarding Snowden. 926 00:33:36,910 --> 00:33:38,529 It actually goes back to that. 927 00:33:38,530 --> 00:33:40,239 Right. So they thought, OK, something 928 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,039 needs to be done there. 929 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,259 And what we did, like a number 930 00:33:44,260 --> 00:33:46,049 of people got together. 931 00:33:46,050 --> 00:33:48,429 Um, the first 932 00:33:48,430 --> 00:33:50,079 meeting I was involved in is like a year 933 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,030 ago and the 934 00:33:54,140 --> 00:33:55,959 year and two or three months. 935 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,149 And then the actual thing where 936 00:33:58,150 --> 00:34:00,819 more people got together was here at the 937 00:34:00,820 --> 00:34:03,099 thirty one three, like 938 00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:04,989 at two o'clock in the night, walking out 939 00:34:04,990 --> 00:34:06,459 of the party hall, running into the 940 00:34:06,460 --> 00:34:08,259 persons. And we wanted to talk about 941 00:34:08,260 --> 00:34:09,699 this. OK, let's talk about this. 942 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,059 And then, you know, these were like three 943 00:34:13,060 --> 00:34:15,369 different people from three different 944 00:34:15,370 --> 00:34:17,559 countries, which is also important 945 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,979 and kind of three different contexts, 946 00:34:20,980 --> 00:34:21,980 contexts. 947 00:34:23,020 --> 00:34:25,178 So we got together and 948 00:34:25,179 --> 00:34:26,738 we had heard that that's going to be a 949 00:34:26,739 --> 00:34:28,179 call. And it was. 950 00:34:29,340 --> 00:34:31,408 About this, so we applied for 951 00:34:31,409 --> 00:34:34,138 that oh, I'm sorry, 952 00:34:34,139 --> 00:34:36,029 right. Sorry, this is the product we 953 00:34:36,030 --> 00:34:38,459 applied with that I actually saw this 954 00:34:38,460 --> 00:34:39,539 right. 955 00:34:39,540 --> 00:34:41,939 This is the call that is part 956 00:34:41,940 --> 00:34:44,638 of the text of this one page call. 957 00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:46,529 And we said, right, you know, we just 958 00:34:46,530 --> 00:34:48,959 take this and focus on this 959 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:50,399 because there's lots of things in this 960 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:51,359 call. 961 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,428 But you basically are going to tell 962 00:34:53,429 --> 00:34:55,349 your story from a part of the call and 963 00:34:55,350 --> 00:34:56,669 say, OK, this is what we're going to 964 00:34:56,670 --> 00:34:57,670 focus on. 965 00:34:58,500 --> 00:34:59,519 And that's what we did. 966 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,859 We actually said, OK, and it's 967 00:35:01,860 --> 00:35:03,210 stated boldly 968 00:35:04,710 --> 00:35:06,839 also to make it clear, like the people 969 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,239 involved here want to research 970 00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:10,530 into decentralized, 971 00:35:13,050 --> 00:35:15,449 interdisciplinary and privacy, 972 00:35:15,450 --> 00:35:17,129 preserving and so on. 973 00:35:17,130 --> 00:35:19,079 Technologies and protocols actually 974 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:20,519 develop new protocols. 975 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,439 So there's various peer to peer protocols 976 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,199 and messaging protocols, 977 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,389 including also more transparent 978 00:35:27,390 --> 00:35:29,279 encryption for email and lots of other 979 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,099 things that are in this project. 980 00:35:32,100 --> 00:35:33,839 And also community research like trying 981 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,019 to understand why or how 982 00:35:37,020 --> 00:35:40,079 decentralization projects can succeed 983 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,449 in the current market environment 984 00:35:42,450 --> 00:35:44,459 that we have. Right. 985 00:35:44,460 --> 00:35:46,320 Which is not a trivial problem. 986 00:35:49,590 --> 00:35:51,719 So another project 987 00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:53,219 I'm just going to mention this briefly 988 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:55,979 is the pipeline project. 989 00:35:55,980 --> 00:35:57,929 I actually talked about this in 2005. 990 00:35:57,930 --> 00:35:59,749 I think also at a conference, 991 00:36:00,780 --> 00:36:02,999 it's just in time compiler for 992 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,709 PayPal. And it wasn't you funded for 993 00:36:04,710 --> 00:36:06,599 three years. The project existed already 994 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,119 one or two years, like between persons 995 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,159 that actually at some point decided, OK, 996 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,259 this is an interesting call, like new 997 00:36:13,260 --> 00:36:14,579 language design or something, what it 998 00:36:14,580 --> 00:36:16,799 was. And we went for that. 999 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,299 We got three years of a three years 1000 00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:19,529 funding, one to three million or 1001 00:36:19,530 --> 00:36:20,699 something like this. 1002 00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:22,359 And the thing is and that's also why the 1003 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:23,939 EU is happy about this project as a 1004 00:36:23,940 --> 00:36:26,189 reference is it's actually still 1005 00:36:26,190 --> 00:36:28,949 ongoing like in 2015. 1006 00:36:28,950 --> 00:36:31,349 And that's not the typical things that 1007 00:36:31,350 --> 00:36:33,929 happens with EU projects that exist 1008 00:36:35,130 --> 00:36:37,079 at like with the beginning of the 1009 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,239 funding. And they end when it's 1010 00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:40,559 done. And then that's nothing. 1011 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,099 Sometimes has gone, 1012 00:36:44,100 --> 00:36:45,100 you know, 1013 00:36:46,470 --> 00:36:49,289 and you can imagine that many, like 1014 00:36:49,290 --> 00:36:51,359 many people, the project officers were 1015 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:52,859 responsible for projects that kind of 1016 00:36:52,860 --> 00:36:53,819 unhappy about this. 1017 00:36:53,820 --> 00:36:55,439 They want to have something that actually 1018 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,259 has an impact but actually goes on and 1019 00:36:58,260 --> 00:37:00,359 they basically try to like they pump some 1020 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,699 money into it to actually help it. 1021 00:37:02,700 --> 00:37:03,749 And you don't have to pay it back. 1022 00:37:03,750 --> 00:37:05,819 It's not a loan or something, but it's 1023 00:37:05,820 --> 00:37:07,979 actually for getting somewhere and not 1024 00:37:07,980 --> 00:37:09,239 just for getting the money. 1025 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,259 So I think the key, again, is like the 1026 00:37:13,260 --> 00:37:14,849 people in the project, you want to do the 1027 00:37:14,850 --> 00:37:16,949 project idea. The vision is 1028 00:37:16,950 --> 00:37:19,259 really what needs to come first 1029 00:37:19,260 --> 00:37:21,599 and basically also wanting 1030 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,219 to do it even without EU funding. 1031 00:37:23,220 --> 00:37:25,019 That's a good start, I think. 1032 00:37:25,020 --> 00:37:26,609 And then you basically are even more 1033 00:37:26,610 --> 00:37:28,829 happy when the project 1034 00:37:28,830 --> 00:37:30,329 actually when you actually get the 1035 00:37:30,330 --> 00:37:32,550 funding and can sustain yourself. 1036 00:37:34,110 --> 00:37:36,839 One thing that is important is 1037 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,939 what is very helpful 10 years ago. 1038 00:37:38,940 --> 00:37:40,799 Haven't given it that much now because I 1039 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,869 have other means of getting information. 1040 00:37:42,870 --> 00:37:45,269 But in each country 1041 00:37:45,270 --> 00:37:47,219 in Europe, there's a so-called national 1042 00:37:47,220 --> 00:37:48,719 contact point. In Germany, it's called 1043 00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:50,429 the index. 1044 00:37:50,430 --> 00:37:52,529 It's actually with the moon 1045 00:37:52,530 --> 00:37:53,669 landing. The 1046 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,379 IMF has called space 1047 00:37:57,380 --> 00:37:58,380 no 1048 00:37:59,490 --> 00:38:01,469 space travel space travel agency of 1049 00:38:01,470 --> 00:38:03,900 Germany. They are also functioning as 1050 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:06,299 as a contact point. 1051 00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:08,159 The thing about contact points is the 1052 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:09,479 national contact points. 1053 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,809 They are usually super helpful. 1054 00:38:12,810 --> 00:38:14,939 They are not employed by the European 1055 00:38:14,940 --> 00:38:15,959 Union. 1056 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:17,729 They are actually representing the nation 1057 00:38:17,730 --> 00:38:20,159 states and they want to help 1058 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,229 the entities in their country to 1059 00:38:22,230 --> 00:38:24,299 get the largest piece of 1060 00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:25,560 the cake as possible. 1061 00:38:27,110 --> 00:38:28,110 Right. 1062 00:38:29,580 --> 00:38:32,069 So don't be afraid to talk to them. 1063 00:38:32,070 --> 00:38:34,259 When you talk to someone 1064 00:38:34,260 --> 00:38:36,360 from the European Union, 1065 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:39,989 it's often a lot harder 1066 00:38:41,550 --> 00:38:42,959 to get useful information. 1067 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:44,939 I think it's partly to the rules they are 1068 00:38:44,940 --> 00:38:47,489 actually executing. 1069 00:38:47,490 --> 00:38:49,289 They had a big scandal of corruption 10 1070 00:38:49,290 --> 00:38:51,449 years ago or 12 1071 00:38:51,450 --> 00:38:52,949 years ago now or so, and they changed the 1072 00:38:52,950 --> 00:38:53,249 rules. 1073 00:38:53,250 --> 00:38:55,409 And I think it's still in effect. 1074 00:38:55,410 --> 00:38:56,489 But don't name me on this. 1075 00:38:57,780 --> 00:38:59,969 It was, at least for a very long time, 1076 00:38:59,970 --> 00:39:02,129 the project officer that tells a project 1077 00:39:02,130 --> 00:39:04,259 something like, yeah, yeah, you 1078 00:39:04,260 --> 00:39:05,639 can make this change. It's going to be 1079 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,859 OK, know, ask for some 1080 00:39:07,860 --> 00:39:09,239 change I want to make. And they said it's 1081 00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:10,379 OK. 1082 00:39:10,380 --> 00:39:12,809 And you quote them on this 1083 00:39:12,810 --> 00:39:15,119 and you sue them on this because 1084 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:16,559 later on, basically when you actually do 1085 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,659 the change and it gets not accepted by 1086 00:39:18,660 --> 00:39:20,819 the legal department of the EU, 1087 00:39:20,820 --> 00:39:23,849 then this project officer is liable 1088 00:39:23,850 --> 00:39:26,010 with at least one year's salary 1089 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:28,360 personally. 1090 00:39:29,490 --> 00:39:31,739 And you can imagine what I mean, what 1091 00:39:31,740 --> 00:39:33,989 this kind of situation does to 1092 00:39:33,990 --> 00:39:36,209 your life, giving 1093 00:39:36,210 --> 00:39:37,139 good advice, right? 1094 00:39:37,140 --> 00:39:39,269 It's a bit tricky, like when 1095 00:39:39,270 --> 00:39:41,069 you say something and you do it and then 1096 00:39:41,070 --> 00:39:42,070 there's always this 1097 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:44,489 tension. 1098 00:39:44,490 --> 00:39:45,749 And I think it's not a very good idea. 1099 00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:47,879 But they try to actually make it harder 1100 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,560 for project officers to 1101 00:39:51,570 --> 00:39:53,699 do harm to the EU 1102 00:39:53,700 --> 00:39:54,700 budget. 1103 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:56,759 OK. 1104 00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:58,590 I also said hacking funding. 1105 00:40:00,210 --> 00:40:01,589 I already mentioned when I talked about 1106 00:40:01,590 --> 00:40:02,909 bureaucracy that I think there's a 1107 00:40:02,910 --> 00:40:04,559 certain relation between software and 1108 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,869 bureaucracy. Both deal with categories, 1109 00:40:06,870 --> 00:40:09,239 both deal with like confining 1110 00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:11,579 the world and to certain like pieces 1111 00:40:11,580 --> 00:40:13,649 and making relations and so on. 1112 00:40:13,650 --> 00:40:15,299 It's just that software automatically 1113 00:40:15,300 --> 00:40:16,410 executes and 1114 00:40:17,940 --> 00:40:19,979 and the bureaucracy that we know. 1115 00:40:19,980 --> 00:40:21,899 At least it's changing, actually, but 1116 00:40:21,900 --> 00:40:24,149 it's it's executing 1117 00:40:24,150 --> 00:40:25,150 humans. 1118 00:40:25,740 --> 00:40:27,929 When I say hacking funding, I mean 1119 00:40:29,310 --> 00:40:31,199 hacking in the sense of 1120 00:40:33,060 --> 00:40:36,539 understanding, like you understand 1121 00:40:36,540 --> 00:40:38,579 how something works, how the process 1122 00:40:38,580 --> 00:40:40,799 works, how the rules are executed, 1123 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,079 what is involved like the various 1124 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:44,429 pieces. 1125 00:40:44,430 --> 00:40:46,979 And then the other part of hacking is 1126 00:40:46,980 --> 00:40:49,149 trying to use it for 1127 00:40:49,150 --> 00:40:51,329 good purpose, sometimes also 1128 00:40:51,330 --> 00:40:52,439 bad purpose. 1129 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,539 Right. But in general, trying to, let's 1130 00:40:54,540 --> 00:40:56,369 say for your own purpose and it's your 1131 00:40:56,370 --> 00:40:57,370 choice, 1132 00:41:00,750 --> 00:41:02,489 decentralization. 1133 00:41:02,490 --> 00:41:04,709 How is it possible that the EU, 1134 00:41:04,710 --> 00:41:06,959 as a kind of a centralized 1135 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,329 institution, um, 1136 00:41:10,620 --> 00:41:13,229 funds decentralization? 1137 00:41:13,230 --> 00:41:15,179 How is how is that logic or something? 1138 00:41:15,180 --> 00:41:16,180 Right. 1139 00:41:16,590 --> 00:41:18,689 And I'm not going to do go too deep 1140 00:41:18,690 --> 00:41:20,699 into this, but I, I mean, there are 1141 00:41:20,700 --> 00:41:22,439 several things you can say about this. 1142 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,509 One thing is that the 1143 00:41:24,510 --> 00:41:26,609 many people in the EU, they are not happy 1144 00:41:26,610 --> 00:41:28,619 with all these nation states. 1145 00:41:28,620 --> 00:41:31,619 And they to put it very bluntly, 1146 00:41:31,620 --> 00:41:33,599 they think that maybe decentralization is 1147 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,999 a way the Europe of regions or 1148 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,939 other things to actually, you know, 1149 00:41:38,940 --> 00:41:40,949 get a more coherent thing and not so much 1150 00:41:40,950 --> 00:41:42,779 focus on the nation states. 1151 00:41:42,780 --> 00:41:44,969 So it's basically a backdoor to 1152 00:41:44,970 --> 00:41:47,099 to change culture 1153 00:41:47,100 --> 00:41:48,479 and stuff like this. 1154 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,569 The other thing is there's an intrinsic 1155 00:41:51,570 --> 00:41:53,879 relation between 1156 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,039 centralization and decentralization, and 1157 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,260 it depends on the context you look at. 1158 00:41:59,730 --> 00:42:02,849 YouTube is a socially 1159 00:42:02,850 --> 00:42:05,369 decentralized system. 1160 00:42:05,370 --> 00:42:07,529 I can choose which kind of videos I 1161 00:42:07,530 --> 00:42:08,530 like to 1162 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,759 Google Hangouts. I can choose whom to 1163 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:13,709 hang out with Facebook. 1164 00:42:13,710 --> 00:42:15,779 I can choose which kind of friends 1165 00:42:15,780 --> 00:42:17,009 I make. 1166 00:42:17,010 --> 00:42:19,349 But of course, because we have this x ray 1167 00:42:19,350 --> 00:42:21,449 thing, we like look through this and say, 1168 00:42:21,450 --> 00:42:23,309 well, but it's all done by one entity who 1169 00:42:23,310 --> 00:42:24,959 controls everything. 1170 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,249 That doesn't mean that the social 1171 00:42:26,250 --> 00:42:28,319 experience isn't actually very 1172 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,179 socially decentralized. 1173 00:42:30,180 --> 00:42:31,679 And that has been going on for a long 1174 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,149 time. And one of the holy grails 1175 00:42:33,150 --> 00:42:35,339 basically of of 1176 00:42:35,340 --> 00:42:37,619 its development is to make it finally 1177 00:42:37,620 --> 00:42:39,809 possible that it doesn't need 1178 00:42:39,810 --> 00:42:42,119 to be owned by 1179 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,579 by a single entity like such platforms 1180 00:42:44,580 --> 00:42:46,919 can actually be collaboratively 1181 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:47,819 done. 1182 00:42:47,820 --> 00:42:50,699 Right. And exist basically on 1183 00:42:50,700 --> 00:42:52,949 on on all of our devices 1184 00:42:52,950 --> 00:42:55,199 without. And we collaborate and we maybe 1185 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,179 even have contracts how we do things. 1186 00:42:57,180 --> 00:42:58,889 But there's no need to actually have, 1187 00:42:58,890 --> 00:43:01,049 like this commercial entity 1188 00:43:01,050 --> 00:43:03,839 that tries to capture all the value 1189 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,419 in terms of money between 1190 00:43:06,420 --> 00:43:07,739 between social interactions 1191 00:43:08,940 --> 00:43:11,099 and so but in 1192 00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:13,199 the end, like what most users actually 1193 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:14,819 experience, and that's really something 1194 00:43:14,820 --> 00:43:15,869 that you need to be very careful. 1195 00:43:15,870 --> 00:43:17,099 When you talk about decentralization, 1196 00:43:17,100 --> 00:43:19,169 most users actually feel they 1197 00:43:19,170 --> 00:43:20,639 are decentralized. I have my mobile. 1198 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,079 I can contact whoever I want. 1199 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,149 So decentralization on that level 1200 00:43:24,150 --> 00:43:26,369 is like the direct experience is actually 1201 00:43:26,370 --> 00:43:27,989 decentralized. 1202 00:43:27,990 --> 00:43:29,639 It's only the problem that we know how 1203 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:31,229 it's actually operated. 1204 00:43:31,230 --> 00:43:33,629 Right. And that's understandable. 1205 00:43:33,630 --> 00:43:35,159 But I think it's important to to not 1206 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,379 think that people just don't understand. 1207 00:43:37,380 --> 00:43:39,599 I understand perfectly well it makes 1208 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:40,600 sense for them. 1209 00:43:41,790 --> 00:43:44,579 So I think when it comes to 1210 00:43:44,580 --> 00:43:46,609 also this conference and also the 1211 00:43:46,610 --> 00:43:48,959 community in general, we have this and 1212 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,089 the topic is gated communities. 1213 00:43:51,090 --> 00:43:53,879 We have the Vatican problem. 1214 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:55,949 Right. It's always this Vatican problem. 1215 00:43:57,300 --> 00:43:59,339 We kind of like not so much at this 1216 00:43:59,340 --> 00:44:01,469 conference. I mean, this is not open 1217 00:44:01,470 --> 00:44:03,869 to other prominent conferences was 1218 00:44:03,870 --> 00:44:04,870 much stronger. 1219 00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:08,399 We are kind of like the bishops and, you 1220 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,549 know, discussing the world and and 1221 00:44:11,550 --> 00:44:14,399 having ideas about grand 1222 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,319 unifying theories, how everything must be 1223 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:17,320 done and so on. 1224 00:44:18,900 --> 00:44:20,549 But there's only certain aspects of it 1225 00:44:20,550 --> 00:44:22,889 here and 1226 00:44:22,890 --> 00:44:25,919 the other. It's like more horizontal, 1227 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,949 like hippie, like whatever and diverse. 1228 00:44:28,950 --> 00:44:31,049 Approach where you don't have a 1229 00:44:31,050 --> 00:44:33,449 single ruling idea, 1230 00:44:33,450 --> 00:44:35,609 right, you maybe have a 1231 00:44:35,610 --> 00:44:38,429 single platform like this conference 1232 00:44:38,430 --> 00:44:39,809 with lots of rooms and lots of 1233 00:44:39,810 --> 00:44:41,759 possibilities, but then what actually 1234 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:43,109 happens is, again, completely 1235 00:44:43,110 --> 00:44:45,539 decentralized, like it's up to us 1236 00:44:45,540 --> 00:44:48,299 who we talk to, how we got 1237 00:44:48,300 --> 00:44:50,039 and how we go about things 1238 00:44:51,390 --> 00:44:53,549 and how 1239 00:44:53,550 --> 00:44:55,409 this resolves. I mean, how can we 1240 00:44:56,580 --> 00:44:58,739 how can we get away from, I would 1241 00:44:58,740 --> 00:45:00,779 also say, bureaucratic systems that rob 1242 00:45:00,780 --> 00:45:01,940 people of agency? 1243 00:45:03,450 --> 00:45:04,679 That's a big question. 1244 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,079 And I think 1245 00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,419 there's a number of people even in the 1246 00:45:09,420 --> 00:45:11,549 project, officers in the EU who 1247 00:45:11,550 --> 00:45:14,639 actually want to help this. 1248 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:15,659 Right. 1249 00:45:15,660 --> 00:45:17,579 So and they are actually explicitly 1250 00:45:17,580 --> 00:45:19,139 interested. I know this from at least one 1251 00:45:19,140 --> 00:45:21,389 person in getting 1252 00:45:21,390 --> 00:45:23,219 more interesting projects, especially 1253 00:45:23,220 --> 00:45:25,379 from contexts from 1254 00:45:25,380 --> 00:45:27,179 like the CCC. 1255 00:45:27,180 --> 00:45:28,379 Right. 1256 00:45:28,380 --> 00:45:30,509 So that's definitely something 1257 00:45:30,510 --> 00:45:31,510 to go for. So 1258 00:45:32,610 --> 00:45:34,079 finally, just make this picture this 1259 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:35,429 morning. 1260 00:45:35,430 --> 00:45:37,499 That's very nice because you have 1261 00:45:37,500 --> 00:45:39,659 this more or less horizontal activities 1262 00:45:39,660 --> 00:45:41,819 with a little bit of like, you know, 1263 00:45:41,820 --> 00:45:44,159 big keynotes and stuff and stuff 1264 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:45,360 in the big room stuff. 1265 00:45:46,620 --> 00:45:48,719 And I think it's all a bit in the shadow 1266 00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:51,389 of what John Youngblood called 1267 00:45:51,390 --> 00:45:53,069 the broadcast. 1268 00:45:53,070 --> 00:45:55,739 Right. We have this big overarching 1269 00:45:55,740 --> 00:45:57,689 broadcast that basically tries to order 1270 00:45:57,690 --> 00:45:59,759 all of the world and integrate 1271 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,069 all of the activities into a certain, 1272 00:46:02,070 --> 00:46:03,890 what you call it, world system. 1273 00:46:05,190 --> 00:46:07,289 And that's a certain 1274 00:46:07,290 --> 00:46:09,179 tension that I feel personally. 1275 00:46:09,180 --> 00:46:11,279 And since the Paris attacks, 1276 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,739 I actually I didn't want to read 1277 00:46:13,740 --> 00:46:15,959 any of this like this whole thing, 1278 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,029 what they say in the target show, 1279 00:46:18,030 --> 00:46:19,409 you know, all the politicians and so on. 1280 00:46:19,410 --> 00:46:21,299 I said, OK, this is now a perfect 1281 00:46:21,300 --> 00:46:23,369 opportunity to actually listen 1282 00:46:23,370 --> 00:46:24,669 to the broadcast anymore. 1283 00:46:24,670 --> 00:46:26,879 So I stepped away from all of this, 1284 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,949 like Peter Spiegel, whatever. 1285 00:46:28,950 --> 00:46:31,319 I mean, all of these broadcast 1286 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,199 media, because I don't want to 1287 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,409 recreate myself in this image, 1288 00:46:36,410 --> 00:46:38,429 but they're painting to be part of that. 1289 00:46:38,430 --> 00:46:41,069 Right. I want to create my own context. 1290 00:46:41,070 --> 00:46:43,319 I want to have the time and 1291 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,109 maybe also the come to actually 1292 00:46:46,110 --> 00:46:47,849 to do this and 1293 00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:49,900 go somewhere else. 1294 00:46:52,380 --> 00:46:54,300 OK, thank you very much. 1295 00:47:04,230 --> 00:47:06,959 Hold out for this very nice talk. 1296 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,359 We have ten minutes for Q&A. 1297 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,489 So if you have a question, please line up 1298 00:47:11,490 --> 00:47:13,769 at the four microphones while 1299 00:47:13,770 --> 00:47:14,729 you're lining up. 1300 00:47:14,730 --> 00:47:17,159 We also have a question from our signal 1301 00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:18,689 angel on your seat. 1302 00:47:20,070 --> 00:47:22,289 There is the question whether 1303 00:47:22,290 --> 00:47:25,079 there are some examples available 1304 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,209 from the paperwork submitted, 1305 00:47:27,210 --> 00:47:29,399 like the 60 pages of maybe the 1306 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,729 successful proposals. 1307 00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,579 Yes, I think they are. 1308 00:47:35,580 --> 00:47:37,949 I'm not sure. Sometimes they are only the 1309 00:47:39,030 --> 00:47:41,309 everything except for the budgeting, 1310 00:47:41,310 --> 00:47:42,989 like how the money is distributed. 1311 00:47:42,990 --> 00:47:44,339 That's so. 1312 00:47:44,340 --> 00:47:45,779 And then, I mean, they are basically 1313 00:47:45,780 --> 00:47:47,669 hundreds out there. 1314 00:47:47,670 --> 00:47:49,769 If you sent me a mail, 1315 00:47:49,770 --> 00:47:51,329 I can probably make you available at 1316 00:47:51,330 --> 00:47:52,499 least two or three. 1317 00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:53,939 And I'm not sure if there's a public 1318 00:47:53,940 --> 00:47:55,439 repository, but it's it's a very good 1319 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:57,809 point because I'm 1320 00:47:57,810 --> 00:47:59,879 looking at successful proposals, 1321 00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:02,159 idealism that got 15 1322 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,349 out of 15 points to see 1323 00:48:04,350 --> 00:48:05,579 how they are done. That's a certain 1324 00:48:05,580 --> 00:48:07,649 structure that's like three chapters, 1325 00:48:07,650 --> 00:48:10,169 excellence, impact, 1326 00:48:10,170 --> 00:48:12,149 like how you're doing the stuff. 1327 00:48:12,150 --> 00:48:13,259 Right. 1328 00:48:13,260 --> 00:48:15,389 And you can see this, 1329 00:48:15,390 --> 00:48:16,919 how it's done and how people actually 1330 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,679 describe things in examples. 1331 00:48:20,820 --> 00:48:22,019 Like I said, I'm not completely sure 1332 00:48:22,020 --> 00:48:25,199 about a repository, but 1333 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,360 also ask at the national contact point 1334 00:48:29,010 --> 00:48:31,109 or if all else fails, try to 1335 00:48:31,110 --> 00:48:33,179 email me and I can see what I can 1336 00:48:33,180 --> 00:48:35,189 provide. And since you're following the 1337 00:48:35,190 --> 00:48:37,469 topic, do you also 1338 00:48:37,470 --> 00:48:38,579 maybe blog about it? 1339 00:48:40,670 --> 00:48:42,179 I'm not following the topic. 1340 00:48:42,180 --> 00:48:44,580 I'm just getting some money and. 1341 00:48:47,490 --> 00:48:49,589 I see the news value in this, so 1342 00:48:49,590 --> 00:48:51,509 I'm not an expert on this, like I'm not, 1343 00:48:51,510 --> 00:48:53,279 but I'm not operating a company that does 1344 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:54,420 advise on this, right? 1345 00:48:57,900 --> 00:48:59,049 Yeah. I mean, I don't know. 1346 00:48:59,050 --> 00:49:01,229 I'm not using Twitter currently, but, 1347 00:49:01,230 --> 00:49:03,419 um, I might 1348 00:49:03,420 --> 00:49:04,499 post something on the blog. I can 1349 00:49:04,500 --> 00:49:05,500 promise. Sorry. 1350 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,689 Yes, hello. 1351 00:49:09,690 --> 00:49:10,579 Hello. 1352 00:49:10,580 --> 00:49:12,949 On Twitter, there's a link for a 1353 00:49:12,950 --> 00:49:15,829 proposal which was submitted successfully 1354 00:49:15,830 --> 00:49:17,929 about a week here for anybody 1355 00:49:17,930 --> 00:49:20,659 who is doing automated as the new project 1356 00:49:20,660 --> 00:49:22,789 running with a call will last 1357 00:49:22,790 --> 00:49:25,029 until August 2016, 1358 00:49:25,030 --> 00:49:27,279 you can get up to 100000 if you're doing 1359 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,539 open data projects, that might be. 1360 00:49:29,540 --> 00:49:30,540 Yes. 1361 00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:33,499 Yeah. I mean, one thing I can offer is 1362 00:49:33,500 --> 00:49:35,329 that the people who are interested to 1363 00:49:35,330 --> 00:49:37,489 discuss a bit more in-depth, we can 1364 00:49:37,490 --> 00:49:39,409 actually gather afterwards and go 1365 00:49:39,410 --> 00:49:41,509 somewhere and talk 1366 00:49:41,510 --> 00:49:44,659 a bit more about examples and 1367 00:49:44,660 --> 00:49:46,669 some background information. 1368 00:49:46,670 --> 00:49:47,670 Yes, 1369 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,839 I want to know you said those pipelines, 1370 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:55,069 an example. Do you have any do you know 1371 00:49:55,070 --> 00:49:56,659 of any other projects that might be 1372 00:49:56,660 --> 00:49:58,909 known, perhaps that successfully 1373 00:49:58,910 --> 00:49:59,799 funded and that. 1374 00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:01,459 Yes. No. And used. 1375 00:50:01,460 --> 00:50:03,859 I mean, that's that's increasingly many 1376 00:50:03,860 --> 00:50:04,969 open source project, but I think 1377 00:50:04,970 --> 00:50:06,919 Freephone was involved. 1378 00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:08,839 I'm not sure what to call eMESH something 1379 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:09,989 somebody who knows. 1380 00:50:09,990 --> 00:50:12,500 Well that's, 1381 00:50:13,700 --> 00:50:15,199 that's the open data. 1382 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,699 That's also I think activities in the 1383 00:50:16,700 --> 00:50:17,869 open data community. 1384 00:50:17,870 --> 00:50:20,239 And if you look for open source, you 1385 00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:22,579 funded project, you should find 1386 00:50:22,580 --> 00:50:25,489 some examples. And I think it's just 1387 00:50:25,490 --> 00:50:27,589 getting more like I still remember that 1388 00:50:27,590 --> 00:50:29,599 pipeline was one of the first bigger 1389 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,759 ones. They actually funded with 1390 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:33,769 open source because that's the section. 1391 00:50:33,770 --> 00:50:35,779 And your proposal about intellectual 1392 00:50:35,780 --> 00:50:37,129 property rights. 1393 00:50:37,130 --> 00:50:38,239 Right. 1394 00:50:38,240 --> 00:50:40,339 Like, how many patents do you actually 1395 00:50:40,340 --> 00:50:42,109 plan to submit and stuff like this 1396 00:50:42,110 --> 00:50:43,369 before? Like zero? 1397 00:50:43,370 --> 00:50:44,880 No, no. 1398 00:50:47,180 --> 00:50:49,789 But it's I think it's more 1399 00:50:49,790 --> 00:50:51,289 like they understand open source and they 1400 00:50:51,290 --> 00:50:53,359 want to have it. So that's not 1401 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,339 really a big barrier there at all 1402 00:50:55,340 --> 00:50:56,340 anymore. 1403 00:50:57,260 --> 00:50:59,389 Another question from the from the right 1404 00:50:59,390 --> 00:51:00,529 microphone. 1405 00:51:00,530 --> 00:51:02,389 Will you tell us something more about 1406 00:51:02,390 --> 00:51:04,969 consortiums and consortium dynamics, 1407 00:51:06,770 --> 00:51:08,779 especially what kind of consortium 1408 00:51:08,780 --> 00:51:10,939 dynamics founders are 1409 00:51:10,940 --> 00:51:13,009 looking for? Like, I 1410 00:51:13,010 --> 00:51:15,169 don't know, just as an example, 1411 00:51:15,170 --> 00:51:17,749 if you like to play a role playing games, 1412 00:51:17,750 --> 00:51:20,009 you know that you always need a clerical 1413 00:51:20,010 --> 00:51:22,099 work and a reason. 1414 00:51:22,100 --> 00:51:23,510 What do you need for a consortium? 1415 00:51:27,580 --> 00:51:28,850 I know 1416 00:51:30,050 --> 00:51:31,309 you already said it, I think. 1417 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:38,949 I know at least one or two persons who 1418 00:51:38,950 --> 00:51:40,869 were involved in EU projects would, I 1419 00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:43,029 would consider kind of visit that 1420 00:51:43,030 --> 00:51:44,590 actually made things happen. 1421 00:51:46,660 --> 00:51:48,429 Yeah, there's also the Warriors that 1422 00:51:48,430 --> 00:51:50,769 actually try to fight for their budget 1423 00:51:50,770 --> 00:51:53,079 and don't want to do actually 1424 00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:54,459 much. Oh, you didn't deliver in the last 1425 00:51:54,460 --> 00:51:54,639 year. 1426 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:55,989 Yeah, but we want to have money anyway. 1427 00:51:55,990 --> 00:51:57,279 And then you have this discussion in the 1428 00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,979 consortium and you can either decide 1429 00:51:59,980 --> 00:52:02,289 how we're going to justify this to the EU 1430 00:52:02,290 --> 00:52:04,749 or you can put pressure on this 1431 00:52:04,750 --> 00:52:05,750 entity. 1432 00:52:06,370 --> 00:52:07,370 And that all 1433 00:52:08,740 --> 00:52:10,899 depends on it. So it's 1434 00:52:10,900 --> 00:52:12,819 I think there's a number of examples. 1435 00:52:12,820 --> 00:52:14,739 And that's when you talk to people at 1436 00:52:14,740 --> 00:52:16,689 universities, you will get a lot of 1437 00:52:16,690 --> 00:52:19,269 negative experiences. 1438 00:52:19,270 --> 00:52:20,270 Right. 1439 00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,229 But I think it depends on how you do it. 1440 00:52:23,230 --> 00:52:25,509 I think the if you actually 1441 00:52:25,510 --> 00:52:27,189 have people who want to do something 1442 00:52:27,190 --> 00:52:29,469 together, that's like 1443 00:52:29,470 --> 00:52:31,809 it's like half at least 70 percent 1444 00:52:31,810 --> 00:52:33,459 of your success. 1445 00:52:33,460 --> 00:52:34,389 Right. 1446 00:52:34,390 --> 00:52:36,459 If you have if you 1447 00:52:36,460 --> 00:52:38,409 see it all through the lens of like 1448 00:52:38,410 --> 00:52:40,449 companies and their budgets and, you 1449 00:52:40,450 --> 00:52:42,849 know, the CEOs talking also, 1450 00:52:43,990 --> 00:52:45,250 I would say that, 1451 00:52:47,170 --> 00:52:49,449 yeah, I mean, I can I can talk maybe 1452 00:52:50,620 --> 00:52:52,389 off the records of some disasters. 1453 00:52:52,390 --> 00:52:53,390 I know. 1454 00:52:55,630 --> 00:52:57,549 Another question from the front left 1455 00:52:57,550 --> 00:52:59,349 microphone. It's not a question, it's 1456 00:52:59,350 --> 00:53:01,299 actually an answer. There is no central 1457 00:53:01,300 --> 00:53:03,579 repository of proposals, but 1458 00:53:03,580 --> 00:53:05,799 we published our winning proposal 1459 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,919 in entirety at Open Kentucky, 1460 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,049 and it got like fourteen point five out 1461 00:53:11,050 --> 00:53:12,279 of 15. 1462 00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:14,170 So come and talk to us if you 1463 00:53:15,460 --> 00:53:16,929 if it's something I say a bit more about 1464 00:53:16,930 --> 00:53:18,519 your product, actually, because you're 1465 00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:20,949 some people ask, OK, so 1466 00:53:20,950 --> 00:53:23,139 it's we're looking at 1467 00:53:23,140 --> 00:53:25,389 community driven models of health 1468 00:53:25,390 --> 00:53:27,579 and social care. So what would a health 1469 00:53:27,580 --> 00:53:29,829 and social care system look like 1470 00:53:29,830 --> 00:53:32,109 if it were driven by communities with 1471 00:53:32,110 --> 00:53:34,599 the open technology and access 1472 00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,239 to basically knowledge 1473 00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:39,099 that was only accessible to either the 1474 00:53:39,100 --> 00:53:41,199 market providers or the 1475 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,719 state? So the whole proposal 1476 00:53:43,720 --> 00:53:46,389 just go to open karaoke downloaded, 1477 00:53:46,390 --> 00:53:48,189 including the budget, whatever everything 1478 00:53:48,190 --> 00:53:50,199 we sent him and come talk to us. 1479 00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,939 We're also the outriders assembly. 1480 00:53:52,940 --> 00:53:54,039 How cool. 1481 00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:55,040 Very good. Thank you. 1482 00:53:59,010 --> 00:54:00,709 So I can see it's it's actually possible 1483 00:54:00,710 --> 00:54:03,049 you see another 1484 00:54:03,050 --> 00:54:04,909 question from the front drive microphone, 1485 00:54:06,290 --> 00:54:08,599 a little more information, a question 1486 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:10,849 about how is a small company 1487 00:54:10,850 --> 00:54:12,709 defined to you? 1488 00:54:12,710 --> 00:54:14,899 How is it for small 1489 00:54:14,900 --> 00:54:17,239 companies easier to apply because 1490 00:54:17,240 --> 00:54:18,949 the Bay Area is lower. 1491 00:54:18,950 --> 00:54:21,109 So how is a small company 1492 00:54:21,110 --> 00:54:23,399 defined how many employees 1493 00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:24,919 or. 1494 00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:26,569 I think they are also fine with one 1495 00:54:26,570 --> 00:54:28,189 person companies. Like I said, I mean, 1496 00:54:28,190 --> 00:54:29,569 they don't want to have a consortium, I'm 1497 00:54:29,570 --> 00:54:31,699 pretty sure of seven one 1498 00:54:31,700 --> 00:54:33,439 person companies, and I'm going to go 1499 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:35,329 with that. So you'd have to have a kind 1500 00:54:35,330 --> 00:54:36,499 of a mixture. 1501 00:54:36,500 --> 00:54:37,789 And that's one thing I didn't say 1502 00:54:37,790 --> 00:54:39,949 clearly, which is there's one 1503 00:54:39,950 --> 00:54:41,150 company which is 1504 00:54:42,860 --> 00:54:43,860 the ringmaster, 1505 00:54:45,410 --> 00:54:47,869 which is the coordinator company, 1506 00:54:47,870 --> 00:54:49,999 and that is the primary contact of 1507 00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:51,889 the EU. And that usually needs to be some 1508 00:54:51,890 --> 00:54:53,959 institution that knows 1509 00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:56,419 how to deal with this EU interaction. 1510 00:54:56,420 --> 00:54:59,179 So the EU usually much prefers 1511 00:54:59,180 --> 00:55:01,369 having an experienced company there. 1512 00:55:01,370 --> 00:55:02,629 It also usually wants to have a 1513 00:55:02,630 --> 00:55:05,629 university or two and then companies. 1514 00:55:05,630 --> 00:55:07,009 But some of the companies can be very 1515 00:55:07,010 --> 00:55:08,059 small. That's fine. 1516 00:55:10,140 --> 00:55:11,519 Microphone front left 1517 00:55:13,260 --> 00:55:16,229 in the case of this criterium 1518 00:55:16,230 --> 00:55:19,109 impact, I'm wondering of 1519 00:55:19,110 --> 00:55:21,809 how difficult it is for for a 1520 00:55:21,810 --> 00:55:24,029 project about privacy or for social 1521 00:55:24,030 --> 00:55:26,099 good to abuse or in the case 1522 00:55:26,100 --> 00:55:27,599 of the next LEAP project. 1523 00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:29,849 How did you argue that this 1524 00:55:29,850 --> 00:55:30,930 economic benefit? 1525 00:55:32,130 --> 00:55:34,349 Well, we basically stated that there is a 1526 00:55:34,350 --> 00:55:36,779 demand for privacy preserving 1527 00:55:36,780 --> 00:55:39,029 technology, but it's 1528 00:55:39,030 --> 00:55:41,189 currently too hard to actually get 1529 00:55:41,190 --> 00:55:42,229 something usable. 1530 00:55:43,230 --> 00:55:45,059 And so it's also part of the protocols 1531 00:55:45,060 --> 00:55:47,070 about usability and 1532 00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,699 also developing basically 1533 00:55:50,700 --> 00:55:52,649 the call open source technologies in 1534 00:55:52,650 --> 00:55:54,479 order to build products with it. 1535 00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:56,560 And 1536 00:55:58,470 --> 00:56:00,719 there's also I mean, there's various 1537 00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:02,969 applications that have millions 1538 00:56:02,970 --> 00:56:05,099 of downloads, even on mobile 1539 00:56:05,100 --> 00:56:06,749 phones and so on, that are privacy 1540 00:56:06,750 --> 00:56:08,519 preserving today. 1541 00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:11,399 So you can make the case basically that 1542 00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:13,469 doing something in this area, maybe 1543 00:56:13,470 --> 00:56:15,809 also relating it to opinion polls 1544 00:56:15,810 --> 00:56:17,100 like public opinion polls, 1545 00:56:18,450 --> 00:56:20,519 has an impact on a 1546 00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:22,799 tangible benefit for European 1547 00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:23,789 citizens. 1548 00:56:23,790 --> 00:56:25,919 Right. And you can also make this 1549 00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:27,959 I mean, we did this argument that can 1550 00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:29,670 actually also help and will also help 1551 00:56:30,870 --> 00:56:32,489 product development, that people can 1552 00:56:32,490 --> 00:56:33,959 actually vote with the citizens. 1553 00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:35,639 It's OK. It's not just not only the 1554 00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:36,779 marketing. No, no. 1555 00:56:36,780 --> 00:56:38,609 I mean, the market needs to be in there, 1556 00:56:38,610 --> 00:56:40,289 like I said. I mean, that's just the 1557 00:56:40,290 --> 00:56:42,899 framing we are in is the broadcast 1558 00:56:42,900 --> 00:56:45,629 we are in is actually market liberal. 1559 00:56:45,630 --> 00:56:47,880 So, um, 1560 00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:50,549 you can probably go I mean, market 1561 00:56:50,550 --> 00:56:52,829 liberals also kind of a big 1562 00:56:52,830 --> 00:56:54,869 range, right? I mean, some people focus 1563 00:56:54,870 --> 00:56:56,489 more on the liberal part and some people 1564 00:56:56,490 --> 00:56:58,949 more on the market. But and 1565 00:56:58,950 --> 00:57:00,239 I think you have some freedom there and 1566 00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:02,069 how you exactly describe it, but you must 1567 00:57:02,070 --> 00:57:03,089 relate to it. 1568 00:57:03,090 --> 00:57:05,519 The impact is also about economics. 1569 00:57:07,860 --> 00:57:09,809 We have time for a few more quick 1570 00:57:09,810 --> 00:57:11,459 questions from the front right 1571 00:57:11,460 --> 00:57:12,460 microphone. 1572 00:57:17,180 --> 00:57:19,509 I'm sorry, can you please 1573 00:57:19,510 --> 00:57:21,759 recount a question that's just 1574 00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:23,529 a country where you incorporated in 1575 00:57:23,530 --> 00:57:24,699 matter in getting funding? 1576 00:57:24,700 --> 00:57:26,859 Yes, you need to have European companies. 1577 00:57:26,860 --> 00:57:28,779 Usually you need to know, sorry, you need 1578 00:57:28,780 --> 00:57:30,879 to have companies who are incorporated 1579 00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:32,979 in the EU 1580 00:57:32,980 --> 00:57:35,979 and plus some associated 1581 00:57:35,980 --> 00:57:37,539 member states. I think Switzerland is 1582 00:57:37,540 --> 00:57:39,759 also possible and 1583 00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:40,689 some others. 1584 00:57:40,690 --> 00:57:42,909 And there's also some programs that deal 1585 00:57:42,910 --> 00:57:44,829 with collaboration with Japan, 1586 00:57:45,970 --> 00:57:47,679 you know, going all the way back to the 1587 00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:48,680 Second World War. 1588 00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:50,600 And 1589 00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:54,409 I know that's not really. 1590 00:57:54,410 --> 00:57:55,959 I'm just wondering why it's Japan, why 1591 00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:57,099 not something else? 1592 00:57:57,100 --> 00:57:58,100 I mean, whatever. 1593 00:57:59,460 --> 00:58:01,599 And it's and it's and it's 1594 00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:03,849 Brazil and I think but otherwise, 1595 00:58:03,850 --> 00:58:05,560 basically the main carriers of 1596 00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:08,599 the main carriers off of 1597 00:58:09,970 --> 00:58:11,499 the main carriers off the consortium need 1598 00:58:11,500 --> 00:58:12,369 to be in Europe. 1599 00:58:12,370 --> 00:58:14,049 You can employ people from other 1600 00:58:14,050 --> 00:58:15,939 countries like from the U.S. 1601 00:58:15,940 --> 00:58:17,229 and we're doing this. 1602 00:58:17,230 --> 00:58:18,489 But we actually get them. 1603 00:58:18,490 --> 00:58:19,959 They don't mind because it's kind of like 1604 00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,299 getting good people. Here is a good idea. 1605 00:58:22,300 --> 00:58:24,069 Sorry, but there's not like a higher 1606 00:58:24,070 --> 00:58:26,049 likelihood to get funding if your example 1607 00:58:26,050 --> 00:58:27,399 from Germany. 1608 00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:29,329 Oh, no, no. 1609 00:58:29,330 --> 00:58:31,989 I only know that Germany somehow manages 1610 00:58:31,990 --> 00:58:34,119 to get above 1611 00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,039 proportional payback. 1612 00:58:37,330 --> 00:58:39,549 Um, I don't know if that's 1613 00:58:39,550 --> 00:58:41,709 how they do this or if it's just 1614 00:58:41,710 --> 00:58:42,909 because there's more proposals. 1615 00:58:42,910 --> 00:58:45,279 I think there's a quite big support 1616 00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:47,800 industry and in Germany 1617 00:58:49,180 --> 00:58:50,889 and also I think a lot of activities 1618 00:58:50,890 --> 00:58:53,289 actually that qualify. 1619 00:58:53,290 --> 00:58:55,959 But, yeah, it's 1620 00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,299 it's there's no I think sometimes 1621 00:58:58,300 --> 00:58:59,349 they have their calls. 1622 00:58:59,350 --> 00:59:01,449 They explicitly say we want to have at 1623 00:59:01,450 --> 00:59:03,939 least one participant from Greece 1624 00:59:03,940 --> 00:59:06,009 or from Spain or, you know, 1625 00:59:06,010 --> 00:59:07,449 some some category. 1626 00:59:07,450 --> 00:59:09,279 So they are sometimes special conditions 1627 00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:11,379 on the calls that actually do this. 1628 00:59:11,380 --> 00:59:13,839 But usually it's the whole of the EU 1629 00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:16,389 and you need to have usually three 1630 00:59:16,390 --> 00:59:18,099 different countries involved. 1631 00:59:20,050 --> 00:59:21,969 We're all out of time. 1632 00:59:21,970 --> 00:59:24,009 Thank you very much for this very 1633 00:59:24,010 --> 00:59:25,870 insightful talk with.