1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:21,490 *36C3 preproll music* 2 00:00:21,490 --> 00:00:22,490 Herald Angel: Welcome everybody for our next talk 'Infrastructures in a horizontal 3 00:00:22,490 --> 00:00:27,360 farmers community'. I guess one thing that all of us have in common is, that we all 4 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:32,220 are in special communities. We want to build better communities. We want to build 5 00:00:32,220 --> 00:00:36,400 better infrastructure. And we want to build better technology, be it in a little 6 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,790 hackerspace in Sweden or in a theater group in France or in an NGO in Germany. 7 00:00:41,790 --> 00:00:46,800 That is something that unites us all. And our next speaker, Andrea, she is giving us 8 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:51,800 some insights into their farming community in Italy, because she has 15 years of 9 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:56,739 experience with that. So I think we can all learn quite a lot. And Andrea is a 10 00:00:56,739 --> 00:01:00,920 self-taught web developer. She graduated in communication sciences. She is also a 11 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,309 cook and she is part of a group of radical farmers. I would say she's a little bit of 12 00:01:05,309 --> 00:01:08,680 everything, a jack of all trades. So, she's the best person to give us some 13 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:13,619 insights. So, please welcome Andrea with a big, warm round of applause and enjoy this 14 00:01:13,619 --> 00:01:20,820 talk. Thank you very much. 15 00:01:20,820 --> 00:01:28,009 Andrea: Well, thanks to you too, everyone, to stay here. It will be difficult to fit 16 00:01:28,009 --> 00:01:35,170 in a 30 minute to explain the experience and to explain the interaction between a 17 00:01:35,170 --> 00:01:41,679 lot of different communities, not only these experiencing Bologna, but okay. I 18 00:01:41,679 --> 00:01:48,549 will speak about Campi Aperti. Campi Aperti means open field in Italian. And I 19 00:01:48,549 --> 00:01:54,249 come from Bologna. OK, Bologna, if you imagine that this is Italy, it's here, 20 00:01:54,249 --> 00:02:02,719 Bologna. I'm speaking about the growing vegetable, growing organic food. This is a 21 00:02:02,719 --> 00:02:13,760 community of a farmers. It's a community of people that reclaim the rights to grow 22 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:20,200 our food and decide how the territories, the land, the countryside is transformed. 23 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:30,060 And so it is direct action. There are there are some reclaims to change some 24 00:02:30,060 --> 00:02:37,920 law. But we are not wait that these law in Italy are changed. But we do directly this 25 00:02:37,920 --> 00:02:44,250 stuff. This stuff is a survival for farmers, because the problem is that there 26 00:02:44,250 --> 00:02:49,250 exists only law in Italy that are for the transformed, the food, make pizza, bread, 27 00:02:49,250 --> 00:02:58,620 beer and this stuff and only are made for industrial production. So, the production 28 00:02:58,620 --> 00:03:06,510 of unmade, of the farmer is, that there are no law for these. You can't do sell. 29 00:03:06,510 --> 00:03:14,300 You can't do direct sell. But this group of farmers do this is stuff. And so they 30 00:03:14,300 --> 00:03:22,760 have a political action really, in the street, in the square. And then they must, 31 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:31,070 the more visible stuff that they do, is do these organic markets. But is not only 32 00:03:31,070 --> 00:03:39,730 this. Is political stuff. And these food, their background and their roots in 33 00:03:39,730 --> 00:03:49,740 radical anti capitalist group and from the global movement in the 90s. So, where? 34 00:03:49,740 --> 00:03:55,820 Where are these stuff happen? Happen in places that are free. Because you can't 35 00:03:55,820 --> 00:04:00,380 ask at the beginning. Fifteen years ago you can talk. But also now, probably is 36 00:04:00,380 --> 00:04:05,900 more difficult. You can't ask the municipality to start that these kinds of 37 00:04:05,900 --> 00:04:13,980 markets. And they found a good ground in squat in square in the street, in places 38 00:04:13,980 --> 00:04:22,310 that are managed by human agreement, not the law. And so Campi Aperti was born in 39 00:04:22,310 --> 00:04:32,460 2003 in XM24 in Bolognina. That is on a shared, is occupied, public shared space, 40 00:04:32,460 --> 00:04:37,650 self-managed by our community. Is not a service, is a place where the needs of the 41 00:04:37,650 --> 00:04:47,389 community and the answer to these needs, find an answer and a solution. This place 42 00:04:47,389 --> 00:05:00,030 is under the threat of eviction and we support a lot this place. Really, really 43 00:05:00,030 --> 00:05:10,050 important for our life. So I told you where and I want also told you how. Not 44 00:05:10,050 --> 00:05:19,580 how, only how after. When. The time. The time, it's important stuff. The time, for 45 00:05:19,580 --> 00:05:29,680 capitalism, is thinking in hours and money. But, and it's fast, but this, is 46 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:38,090 shaped on you, on an egocentric idea. But this is not the only way to think the 47 00:05:38,090 --> 00:05:48,750 time. For farmers is really easy. Think of the time cyclical, not egocentric, not 48 00:05:48,750 --> 00:05:58,009 human centred way. And so there are habits to plan the stuff and to take a seasonal 49 00:05:58,009 --> 00:06:05,529 agreement or seasonal planning. And so, the first stuff to rethink our life and 50 00:06:05,529 --> 00:06:13,789 our community is, take our time. Our time of to grow relationship and our time to 51 00:06:13,789 --> 00:06:23,479 think how to do this stuff. And our time when we buy something. Our time to think 52 00:06:23,479 --> 00:06:31,469 where it came from. The stuff that we buy and the stuff that we eat. In which how 53 00:06:31,469 --> 00:06:36,539 are developed and where it comes from. Where from, from what the community and 54 00:06:36,539 --> 00:06:49,600 from what territories. OK. This is a gift that you will find in the slide. If you go 55 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:58,340 to check after these talk, you can see also a video in Creative Commons for sure. 56 00:06:58,340 --> 00:07:06,999 And but the now I have not the time to show our action in video. I want to 57 00:07:06,999 --> 00:07:12,050 explain a bit the infrastructure. The infrastructure is based on the human 58 00:07:12,050 --> 00:07:22,059 agreement and the group of Campi Aperti started with five people in an occupied 59 00:07:22,059 --> 00:07:29,750 space, public space and they started with a small market. After and after they grew. 60 00:07:29,750 --> 00:07:38,309 And now there are more than 150 farmers. And with thousands of people that come at 61 00:07:38,309 --> 00:07:47,780 the market and are co-producer of the products. And so we manage ourself by 62 00:07:47,780 --> 00:07:57,279 assemblies and we do this stuff for consensus method. So the topic are food 63 00:07:57,279 --> 00:08:04,759 autonomy, be independent with the food. Safeguard the territories, practice 64 00:08:04,759 --> 00:08:11,630 agroecology and we shared, we have a shared warranty. So the group of farmer 65 00:08:11,630 --> 00:08:22,869 not to take, not upset, decentralize the warranty about organic food by the state, 66 00:08:22,869 --> 00:08:28,909 but they practice our shared warranty. Means that everyone, everyone of the 67 00:08:28,909 --> 00:08:36,909 producer at the market, take care of the product, also of the orders and and the 68 00:08:36,909 --> 00:08:42,330 care of the relationship . But this also means, that if you break the trust, one 69 00:08:42,330 --> 00:08:47,850 with the other, you go out from the community. And this looks like difficult 70 00:08:47,850 --> 00:08:53,170 to decide, but is not so difficult, because when you are local, and you know 71 00:08:53,170 --> 00:09:01,270 the products that you grow and the how are organic, it's easy to to decide this 72 00:09:01,270 --> 00:09:09,680 stuff. Is a look like that, for explain some technical people, is like if you not 73 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:20,170 trust the certification authority, but you are based on a web of trust. And so we 74 00:09:20,170 --> 00:09:25,680 include also in our relationship, in our work, the sense of the limit and the 75 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:32,339 mutualism. So we plan to not grow too much but to grow only locally. And we divided 76 00:09:32,339 --> 00:09:38,740 the assembly. There are assembly for every market, that are 8 every month. There are 77 00:09:38,740 --> 00:09:45,430 assembly globally all together, every two months. And the assembly every two months 78 00:09:45,430 --> 00:10:00,529 locally for our valley, are based on formal consensus method. This means that 79 00:10:00,529 --> 00:10:07,350 we trained us to stay in the consensus area. We know that the agreement are based 80 00:10:07,350 --> 00:10:14,360 in balance between a relationship and knowledge. We come all from a different 81 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:19,230 knowledge, because we are specialized in different stuff and that we have to grow 82 00:10:19,230 --> 00:10:26,430 together our relationship, so we can, we try to stay in this area of consensus 83 00:10:26,430 --> 00:10:31,120 knowing that we are different knowledge, but I trust. We don't want to stay in 84 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:36,830 ananomity. We don't want stay always agree all together, because there are a lot of 85 00:10:36,830 --> 00:10:44,351 risk in that area. You can, in this area, you grow the diversity. In that area, you 86 00:10:44,351 --> 00:10:51,199 are doing echo chambers and you are doing, you can do easily mistake in the unanimity 87 00:10:51,199 --> 00:10:59,540 place. In the other, you find the low trust and different knowledge. So you are 88 00:10:59,540 --> 00:11:05,500 in dissent normally and you have of low relationship, so low trust. But a full 89 00:11:05,500 --> 00:11:10,009 agreement of what do you want for the future? The only stuff that you can do is 90 00:11:10,009 --> 00:11:15,510 take a technical agreement together. So write really specific law. But we don't 91 00:11:15,510 --> 00:11:22,390 want law, so we want the agreement and the guideline. The other stuff are done by 92 00:11:22,390 --> 00:11:31,259 trust, one with the other. So, told you that we use formal consensus method, means 93 00:11:31,259 --> 00:11:38,940 that in these distributed meeting, we have shared agreements. We start with a base 94 00:11:38,940 --> 00:11:45,709 ground that is that every assembly is reported. So at the beginning of every 95 00:11:45,709 --> 00:11:51,310 assembly, we choose a rapporteur, or more than one, because sometimes there are 96 00:11:51,310 --> 00:11:59,709 global assembly, that start at the morning and finish in the evening. And so, we have 97 00:11:59,709 --> 00:12:07,251 a time, a keeper for the speaker. And we decide to put in our agreement that the 98 00:12:07,251 --> 00:12:15,300 right to listen and to be listened and that no meta conversation of the topic, 99 00:12:15,300 --> 00:12:23,360 only everyone talk speak for herself. Okay, we need that to communicate. And 100 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:29,029 when we started to think about the communication, we speak with another 101 00:12:29,029 --> 00:12:36,930 community that know better this stuff about communication than us and we found, 102 00:12:36,930 --> 00:12:44,730 and we know, because we share that same the same political idea, with hackmeeting. 103 00:12:44,730 --> 00:12:52,750 Hackmeeting is a community in Italy that is anti fascist, anti racist and anti 104 00:12:52,750 --> 00:13:02,350 sexist, and was born in the 90s also, that the community and every year they meet in 105 00:13:02,350 --> 00:13:09,490 different space, occupied space in Italy. They are for the freedom in the 106 00:13:09,490 --> 00:13:16,250 communication, and with a critical view about technologies. So, we ask asked and 107 00:13:16,250 --> 00:13:26,029 we discover a lot of self managed server, and for first tools that we implemented in 108 00:13:26,029 --> 00:13:36,800 the 2004, was our website.Yeah. And we started with a lot of mailing list. The 109 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:41,730 first tool was mailing list and after, to communicate outside in the group, we 110 00:13:41,730 --> 00:13:47,920 started with this website hosted autistici/inventati. That is one of the 111 00:13:47,920 --> 00:14:01,480 older self managed server in Italy near us, with a strong view about anonymity and 112 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:07,639 the privacy oriented for the user. The communication are really, really 113 00:14:07,639 --> 00:14:16,629 important. In group that live in the countryside you live in different farm, 114 00:14:16,629 --> 00:14:22,519 far from one from the other. And so happened, that to use the mailing list, 115 00:14:22,519 --> 00:14:28,221 all people need the connectivity. So, what happened that if you based your 116 00:14:28,221 --> 00:14:33,680 connectivity on a commercial companies and your are in countryside, you discovered 117 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:41,300 that you are told: No, you are still far from the city and we don't earn too much 118 00:14:41,300 --> 00:14:49,209 enough to bring to you connectivity. And so, we started to explore how to resolve 119 00:14:49,209 --> 00:14:54,500 this problem. And we discovered that exists yet a community that have thought 120 00:14:54,500 --> 00:15:00,760 to this stuff and that yet existed a Pico peer (Peer to Peer) agreement. And in Italy, we 121 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:12,850 meet ninux, ninux community that are based, that shared us and teach us how set 122 00:15:12,850 --> 00:15:23,939 mesh network. And so I show you a bit of photograph. Our infrastructure is a small 123 00:15:23,939 --> 00:15:33,620 and grow really slowly, and is based, our hardware are 15 people that want stay 124 00:15:33,620 --> 00:15:38,500 connected, one with the other, and understood that the broadcasting 125 00:15:38,500 --> 00:15:47,899 connection is nice, is really lighter, use 5Ghz point to point antenna, to do point 126 00:15:47,899 --> 00:16:02,600 to point connection and so the cost to stay, to learn and to do maintain that 127 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:09,709 network is an effort that they can do. And we found also for people more technician 128 00:16:09,709 --> 00:16:18,690 that help, is like help to install Linux, but here we install OpenWrt. And after 129 00:16:18,690 --> 00:16:25,100 that people know how maintain and take care, they in freedom their PC. And in 130 00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:30,870 this case, antenna. We use all super proprietary hardware that we change the 131 00:16:30,870 --> 00:16:36,230 firmware and we use tp-link ubiquity but we are switching to an open hardware 132 00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:43,799 project that is LibreRouter, and as software we use LibraMesh, libremesh.org. 133 00:16:43,799 --> 00:16:58,449 That is a project, that is a bundle of configuration open over OpenWrt. And that 134 00:16:58,449 --> 00:17:08,400 use a different protocol like babeld and batman adv. But yeah, the topic of them is 135 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:13,220 make easier this stuff for the user, and they do. So, we have a blog 136 00:17:13,220 --> 00:17:20,770 antennine.noblogs.org. That where we take the documentation of this stuff. We think 137 00:17:20,770 --> 00:17:30,110 a lot about technology. Also think, why we are adopt technology. And so we started to 138 00:17:30,110 --> 00:17:40,020 deploy a feminist view about technologies. Means, that we thinks that every 139 00:17:40,020 --> 00:17:45,690 technologies is an effort. When someone told to you, that this technology is 140 00:17:45,690 --> 00:17:53,750 smarter, sometime is because is not the considering the entire cycle of life of 141 00:17:53,750 --> 00:18:02,830 that technologies. And so looking a lot in the technologies that everyone this moment 142 00:18:02,830 --> 00:18:10,799 is doing advertisement about technologies: hey use this, is easy. We think: ok no, 143 00:18:10,799 --> 00:18:16,320 stop. Stop. Is better wait and think what do we are doing. So we think that it's 144 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:23,260 important not to do the things alone, because you became the point of failure of 145 00:18:23,260 --> 00:18:29,081 your of your community. To be resistant you need to do this stuff with more 146 00:18:29,081 --> 00:18:37,480 people, not start if you are alone, and mix proficient people with newbie. 147 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:42,110 Contemplated the possibility of making mistake and so, build the testing 148 00:18:42,110 --> 00:18:47,320 environment before put the stuff in production. Document everything to explain 149 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:52,681 the choice that you took, and that give the time to yourself and to the other to 150 00:18:52,681 --> 00:19:00,620 study, and not to be too much specialized. Specialized brings people too easily to go 151 00:19:00,620 --> 00:19:10,390 to burnout. It's better, if you trust yourself in more than one topic and share 152 00:19:10,390 --> 00:19:14,610 knowledge with the other. Not to go too much in deep in one topic, because you 153 00:19:14,610 --> 00:19:21,800 lost the entire view, and why you are doing something. You are not pay for to do 154 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,340 this stuff for community, is a need for community and is a richness of for 155 00:19:26,340 --> 00:19:35,029 everyone of your community, in our view, in our way that we do this stuff. So, we 156 00:19:35,029 --> 00:19:44,240 start from our needs. We started to speak about our digital data in 2016. This is a 157 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:51,120 meeting of a Genuino Clandestino. That is the bigger network of self organized 158 00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:56,460 farmers in Italy. And there are a lot of different small communities that do, that 159 00:19:56,460 --> 00:20:02,620 to grow vegetable and do direct sell in shared public space. And we started to 160 00:20:02,620 --> 00:20:07,419 speak about our digital data and we decided, that we don't want to put in 161 00:20:07,419 --> 00:20:14,590 Google, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple space. We are anti GAFAM. And because 162 00:20:14,590 --> 00:20:20,220 we are against the big distribution of the food and also big distribution of the 163 00:20:20,220 --> 00:20:25,289 data, we think that in this moment is really important to take care of our 164 00:20:25,289 --> 00:20:35,930 intimacies and our data. So we decided to put in server and to run ourself these 165 00:20:35,930 --> 00:20:46,870 services. And we spend a one hour, one year to find a virtual private server. 166 00:20:46,870 --> 00:20:54,900 Someone that host our digital place that shared with us our policy, and we found in 167 00:20:54,900 --> 00:21:02,850 France, in Toulouse, the tetaneutral.net. That is inside of a bigger network that is 168 00:21:02,850 --> 00:21:09,850 federated france data network and are really important for us, because they, I 169 00:21:09,850 --> 00:21:13,380 thinks that they do a good work, because of they are for the neutrality, for 170 00:21:13,380 --> 00:21:22,960 freedom of choice to the internet and with budget based on donation of the community. 171 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:28,919 We've passed a lot of time to find, inside our community of farmers, sysadmin and we 172 00:21:28,919 --> 00:21:37,929 found, and we started to use the Nextcloud as a free software to where host our data. 173 00:21:37,929 --> 00:21:45,190 And we decide to start, we started in March of this year, and we decided to 174 00:21:45,190 --> 00:21:54,210 start to use only for administrative work. So, only for 10 people of the group. And 175 00:21:54,210 --> 00:22:01,261 after deciding if these are tool is OK for our needs or not. If is not we will see 176 00:22:01,261 --> 00:22:08,610 and we are just in time to go back and not use. But at the moment, the stuff are 177 00:22:08,610 --> 00:22:20,220 running good, and we are store in this cloud the cards about our farmers. Because 178 00:22:20,220 --> 00:22:27,260 we make everyone to enter in Campi Aperti needs to be visited by another farmer, and 179 00:22:27,260 --> 00:22:36,049 that to know the, how they grow vegetable and the how they do organic stuff. And so, 180 00:22:36,049 --> 00:22:45,450 we write dossier of ourself, and it's why the website was not more enough. We need 181 00:22:45,450 --> 00:22:53,840 private place where store this stuff, also to decentralize the task that we have to 182 00:22:53,840 --> 00:23:01,350 do. To distribute the task. And so, after this one year of testing, we are planning 183 00:23:01,350 --> 00:23:09,929 how to grow, okay. If all the stuff are going good, we decide how to grow. And so 184 00:23:09,929 --> 00:23:16,240 again, we decide to not to do this stuff alone. We look around in a community near 185 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:24,529 to us and we decide again to adopt something that is yet to use the body 186 00:23:24,529 --> 00:23:26,890 (???) of community that is anti-fascist, anti-racist and anti-sexist. That is 187 00:23:26,890 --> 00:23:38,640 Autistici/Inventati. They change the infrastructure this year and they moved 188 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:50,090 container infrastructure to have divided the configuration, the specific 189 00:23:50,090 --> 00:23:57,899 configuration, the configuration that you can share with other and the software. All 190 00:23:57,899 --> 00:24:10,220 this free stuff are managed by minimalistic orchestrator container. And 191 00:24:10,220 --> 00:24:17,789 that is called the FLOAT. And we find this solution interesting, also because we 192 00:24:17,789 --> 00:24:27,960 started with the other possibility of a solution, and we saw that in this moment 193 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:36,870 there are huge software also open source, that can resolve this problem. But 194 00:24:36,870 --> 00:24:44,630 developed and used by huge open source company that not really feed our needs. So, we 195 00:24:44,630 --> 00:24:50,519 are interesting in this software, because give static service allocation, like some 196 00:24:50,519 --> 00:24:57,380 of these feature looks like not real, are non feature for the needs of the 197 00:24:57,380 --> 00:25:04,750 companies. But for us are, because we have our community, so we have different needs. 198 00:25:04,750 --> 00:25:11,640 So, how its work, quickly. Because yeah, we are at the CCC, I have to show you 199 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:17,470 something of technical. So, we have a specific genetic configuration, that we 200 00:25:17,470 --> 00:25:24,269 versioning with GIT. We use Ansibel to versioning our configuration and the 201 00:25:24,269 --> 00:25:32,809 software, so the generic part, is builded by the continuous integration that we have 202 00:25:32,809 --> 00:25:37,610 on our decision Autistici/Inventati. That is builded in a... we have a Docker 203 00:25:37,610 --> 00:25:45,309 registry and build the Docker image. And so, FLOAT deployed, running our Ansible 204 00:25:45,309 --> 00:25:53,810 playbook, deploy the different Docker image on the different machine. So, why 205 00:25:53,810 --> 00:26:00,059 it's good for us? Because we can versioning all the stuff, so we can also 206 00:26:00,059 --> 00:26:06,940 do mistake but go back and we can deploy on virtual machine, where we can do 207 00:26:06,940 --> 00:26:25,909 testing and on the real production on the real machine. This is, I thinks why we 208 00:26:25,909 --> 00:26:32,690 thinks to adopt. Also, because we want not use, we don't want to stay on a virtual 209 00:26:32,690 --> 00:26:40,400 machine, we would like move on bare metal and we trust to the group, these 210 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:50,460 orchestrator is only 1000 line of Python code, and is written like, is Ansibl 211 00:26:50,460 --> 00:26:59,029 plugin and we can use the double factor authentication, universal two factor 212 00:26:59,029 --> 00:27:04,120 authentication. That is good for us, because if you have for the stuff that 213 00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:10,789 your security is base, could be based on how to do a token. So you have a security 214 00:27:10,789 --> 00:27:18,950 in something of local, that you have to keep. And in some integrated monitoring, 215 00:27:18,950 --> 00:27:26,960 like Prometeus and Graphader (???). And this feature, or non- feature is, that the 216 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:32,300 services go down when something fail. And this is, for us, this is important. We are 217 00:27:32,300 --> 00:27:38,230 not a company that have to stay 24 hour up. We are a community that they want to 218 00:27:38,230 --> 00:27:45,049 know, if something goes wrong with your machine and if someone put physically the 219 00:27:45,049 --> 00:27:56,590 hands on your machine. Yeah, this is, now is the time of the question. Slow please, 220 00:27:56,590 --> 00:28:02,779 the question, because I don't speak really well English *Andrea laughs* you see now? 221 00:28:02,779 --> 00:28:08,820 But also I don't understand really well. And these is the long list of thanks and 222 00:28:08,820 --> 00:28:15,289 all the community that I speak about. There is also EclecticTechCarnival, that 223 00:28:15,289 --> 00:28:23,580 is a feminist community, that pushed a lot to me to arrive here to explain this stuff 224 00:28:23,580 --> 00:28:30,559 to you. And thanks. 225 00:28:30,559 --> 00:28:36,220 *applause* 226 00:28:36,220 --> 00:28:41,140 Herald Angel: Thank you very much for the great talk. It was very, very interesting. 227 00:28:41,140 --> 00:28:45,149 We still have 10 minutes for questions and answers. If you have questions, just move 228 00:28:45,149 --> 00:28:50,740 to the three microphones in the room, and then we're going to have you ask your 229 00:28:50,740 --> 00:28:54,610 questions. So, we start with microphone number two. Very slow in English, please. 230 00:28:54,610 --> 00:28:58,799 Andrea: Yes. Mic 2: Thank you very much for the talk. I 231 00:28:58,799 --> 00:29:03,970 have a question. The customers, do they pay in advance for a year or do they pay 232 00:29:03,970 --> 00:29:11,760 at the market? Andrea: Ok. In Bologna, in Campi Aperti 233 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:19,289 experience is direct sell in the market. So the co-producer, the consumer pay at 234 00:29:19,289 --> 00:29:25,570 the moment. But we know that that is not the perfect model and there are other 235 00:29:25,570 --> 00:29:30,760 other experiment the city, in which Campi Aperti and this group of farmer is 236 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:43,000 involved. And so, there is also Arvaia, that is another group that the customer 237 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:52,370 pay in advance. And have a place, and also work in fields, and take boxes every week. 238 00:29:52,370 --> 00:30:03,210 And there is also another project, that is Camilla and is based on... you are 239 00:30:03,210 --> 00:30:13,309 associated and you have to work three hours every month in a market. And there 240 00:30:13,309 --> 00:30:18,909 is this market open for all the association, all the people associated to 241 00:30:18,909 --> 00:30:26,320 these. So, it is a city that is experimented. But yes, for Campi Aperti, 242 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,720 you not pay in advance it. Only for, in other projects. 243 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:34,409 Mic2: Is it okay if I ask something else? Herald Angel: If it's... Well, I would 244 00:30:34,409 --> 00:30:37,399 first take microphone number three. But if you just stay there, I feel like there 245 00:30:37,399 --> 00:30:40,919 would be still time for another question. So, microphone number three, please. 246 00:30:40,919 --> 00:30:48,410 Mic3: Yes. I have a question about consensus. You mentioned that some level 247 00:30:48,410 --> 00:30:54,080 of disagreement is not only acceptable, but maybe good, because if everyone 248 00:30:54,080 --> 00:31:00,500 agrees, then there is no discussion, development and less trust. But what level 249 00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:05,741 of disagreement is acceptable? Have you tried different models, like how you 250 00:31:05,741 --> 00:31:13,139 achieve this consensus? Andrea: Yeah, we think that disagreement 251 00:31:13,139 --> 00:31:21,950 is important to not hide problems. So also, we put attention to not to say at 252 00:31:21,950 --> 00:31:29,330 the end of a conversation we are all agree, but for example, if someone of more 253 00:31:29,330 --> 00:31:40,100 doubt and we have a formal way of a consensus. So, to be sure that we are all 254 00:31:40,100 --> 00:31:47,779 agree, we do an orientation, we call it, and that means that you can divide the 255 00:31:47,779 --> 00:32:01,940 group in three position. Active consent, consensus with doubts but that you think 256 00:32:01,940 --> 00:32:08,100 that trust is enough, so you are agree, but you will be not active to do this 257 00:32:08,100 --> 00:32:16,320 stuff. And the active dissensus, that means, that the decision that are you 258 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:24,169 taking is against the principle and if you put yourself in that position, you have to 259 00:32:24,169 --> 00:32:31,639 explain to all the others and you have to do again an orientation. But if you are 260 00:32:31,639 --> 00:32:39,899 more than 20% of the people that stay in active dissent, you have to re-discuss 261 00:32:39,899 --> 00:32:46,690 all. So, became block, blocked. Herald Angel: Great, thanks for the 262 00:32:46,690 --> 00:32:49,970 explanation. That was very interesting. Microphone number two, again. 263 00:32:49,970 --> 00:32:55,920 Mic2: Thank you for your talk. I wanted to ask whether you have any mechanism to help 264 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:01,289 people that want to become farmers, especially to acquire new land. 265 00:33:01,289 --> 00:33:08,320 Andrea: Hmm. Existed a project and now is not the more active. We are sad, because 266 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:16,919 it's not more active and because this project started from people that had these 267 00:33:16,919 --> 00:33:23,880 need. And after they found the land and say: ok, we have not more the time. And we 268 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:36,700 have, we not find again who put the time in that project. And so, there is not a 269 00:33:36,700 --> 00:33:46,710 real... process in which we help people to became farmer. But, for example, the 270 00:33:46,710 --> 00:33:52,639 mailing list is open. Everyone that participated to the market can be says can 271 00:33:52,639 --> 00:33:57,381 join the mailing list and also the assembly and the meeting and so happen a 272 00:33:57,381 --> 00:34:05,320 lot of time and that the people asked for space in countryside so find information. 273 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:12,770 And the other stuff, that really change, make the change is, that a lot of people 274 00:34:12,770 --> 00:34:20,890 come in Campi Aperti asking us to do transformation, to transform only the food 275 00:34:20,890 --> 00:34:27,090 and this fact is not acceptable in Campi Aperti. The people are not can only 276 00:34:27,090 --> 00:34:32,530 transformate the food. We are, we do practice for be independent from 277 00:34:32,530 --> 00:34:43,690 capitalism for our food. And so you can't ask only to transforme. So they... we ask 278 00:34:43,690 --> 00:34:52,940 to these people to start a project to grow vegetables and became a farmer. And so... 279 00:34:52,940 --> 00:35:02,690 or started an active collaboration with a group of farmer yet exist. And so in this 280 00:35:02,690 --> 00:35:06,869 way started more people to live in countryside. 281 00:35:06,869 --> 00:35:10,869 Herald Angel: Thank you very much. Next up, we have a question from the Internet. 282 00:35:10,869 --> 00:35:18,580 Signal Angel: You seem to have gone really far in doing a lot of things yourself. Do 283 00:35:18,580 --> 00:35:22,819 you still rely on a lot of mainstream technologies? Or did you re-implement 284 00:35:22,819 --> 00:35:25,680 everything yourself? Andrea: Do you...? 285 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:30,910 Herald Angel: Is everything self-made? Or do you still rely on some mainstream 286 00:35:30,910 --> 00:35:35,760 technologies? Is there something that you use, that is mainstream capitalist, that 287 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,359 everybody else uses too? Like, you mentioned that you don't use Google or 288 00:35:39,359 --> 00:35:42,910 Facebook or something like that. Apart from that, is that something mainstream 289 00:35:42,910 --> 00:35:47,920 that you still use that you rely on? Andrea: Yeah. We are not monopolistic. 290 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:59,701 Like, we have the basic communication independant infrastructure, but yes, some 291 00:35:59,701 --> 00:36:06,520 of them are, we are not the direct running Autistici. We are based that on self- 292 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:13,970 managed servers. So, same community that the shared with us a political topic, but 293 00:36:13,970 --> 00:36:22,180 in that way we are not running the service. We are not running the service. 294 00:36:22,180 --> 00:36:28,530 To communicate that we use the Website and the mailing list, so we have our 295 00:36:28,530 --> 00:36:39,130 independent communication, but there is not... we not avoid people of us that use 296 00:36:39,130 --> 00:36:46,730 also commercial instrument or commercial such network. All this stuff is only that 297 00:36:46,730 --> 00:36:54,860 we don't trust that too much, that way of communication will be really useful when 298 00:36:54,860 --> 00:36:59,060 when we need. Or... Herald Angel: All right. Another question 299 00:36:59,060 --> 00:37:02,970 from microphone number two, please. Mic2: Hi. Thank you for your presentation. 300 00:37:02,970 --> 00:37:10,119 In your presentation, you mention dossier written by farmers about the other 301 00:37:10,119 --> 00:37:16,240 farmers, and farmers visiting other farmers. I wanted to ask, these dossier, 302 00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:22,470 what kind of information do they collect and how are they used? I mean, what's the 303 00:37:22,470 --> 00:37:27,670 purpose of the dossier and what information do they collect? 304 00:37:27,670 --> 00:37:40,970 Andrea: Okay. Is the protocol of shared warranty. And so, a person that want enter 305 00:37:40,970 --> 00:37:51,300 in Campi Aperti from the website, can ask to be visit and starter to fill a form and 306 00:37:51,300 --> 00:38:02,250 fill dossier, these cards. And after, these cards go to the people, assembly of 307 00:38:02,250 --> 00:38:10,619 that valley, the valley where this farmer come from and decide when do the visit. So 308 00:38:10,619 --> 00:38:19,210 this visit is reported to the next assembly. And who did the the visit say, 309 00:38:19,210 --> 00:38:28,550 what this person wrote in the card is a true or not true. And so, also here you 310 00:38:28,550 --> 00:38:39,180 have a, you have the weight of trust, of the whole much trust of the words of a 311 00:38:39,180 --> 00:38:48,560 person that asked to enter, and we store this card, this dossier and we 312 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:55,619 print. We print and we put physically on the desk when people do the market. 313 00:38:55,619 --> 00:39:02,560 Because it's really important that people that come to buy the stuff, know where and 314 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:07,819 if we want to go also to visit the producer. And also, because I told you 315 00:39:07,819 --> 00:39:16,710 that the some of that organic stuff are organic, but not that with the 316 00:39:16,710 --> 00:39:22,290 certification by the state. And also a lot of the stuff that are transformed are 317 00:39:22,290 --> 00:39:26,440 inside of the campaign Genuino Clandestino. That means that are 318 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:33,480 transformed, handmade, but the out of the law. And so you need that, that people are 319 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,170 well-informed, who buy this stuff. Mic2: Ok, so... 320 00:39:37,170 --> 00:39:41,420 Herald Angel: Sorry. Sorry. I'm very sorry. But we don't have time for a back 321 00:39:41,420 --> 00:39:44,571 up questions. Also, I'm very sorry, I would have loved to have the person who 322 00:39:44,571 --> 00:39:47,880 ask the first question also have like, asked the last question, but we ran out of 323 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:52,360 time. But I'm sure that you can still catch Andrea after the talk and ask 324 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:56,010 whatever questions were not answered. So, first of all, thanks for all of your very 325 00:39:56,010 --> 00:39:59,930 interesting and clever questions and also thank you very much, Andrea, for the great 326 00:39:59,930 --> 00:40:04,310 presentation. Please give another big, warm round of applause for Andrea. Thank 327 00:40:04,310 --> 00:40:06,310 you very much. Andrea: Thanks, see you. 328 00:40:06,310 --> 00:40:07,310 *applause* 329 00:40:07,310 --> 00:40:08,310 *postroll music* 330 00:40:08,310 --> 00:40:35,000 Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de in the year 2020. Join, and help us!