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[Music]
uh
so our next talk is uh given to us by
members of sea watch
sea watch is a non-profit initiative
that's dedicated to the civilian rescue
of refugees at sea um and they're going
to be talking to us about a new tech
that's going to be implemented or that
is implemented
at the european border and how that
technology is being used not
for for good purposes but rather being
used against human rights so please give
a big round of applause
to niska and nick
[Applause]
yeah hello good evening and thanks for
coming
um yeah uh like i said uh we're gonna
talk
about uh frontex uh irizu
and the european border surveillance
system uh i'm nick
i worked with seawatch since 2016.
i help out with the it there and
actually want to do the talk with alina
who cannot be
here today so niska was so kind and
helped out so yeah hi
i'm nesca and i've been working for
seawatch airborne operations for
about a year and a half and i'll give
some insight into what
we experienced there with our aircraft
day in and day out flying next to
frontex
airplanes so uh we will start with a
short video
uh which was partly the reason why
uh yeah i started preparing this talk um
i found it like surfing on youtube
um and it was given in 2015 during a
developers conference of estri produces
gear information software
for governments for private companies et
cetera and pieter malinowski the head of
irisu of the european border
surveillance system
yeah talk there to the developers to
yeah kind of recruit them and
when i saw that i thought like yeah
people have to see this
you will see now why
and it's really important to say like we
can't have to be if you see european
union
you might think my gosh there is another
bureaucrat today he's going to talk
about you know
minimum size of bananas which can be
sold in eu
but we will be talking about more
important things today than bananas
we'll be talking about internal security
we'll be talking about challenges
which we are facing today as europe and
how maya
agency frontex helps member states of
european union to tackle those
challenges
and threats so one of our primary
political goal
is to make sure that we can support
member states with a state-of-the-art
technology
to limit the number of deaf bodies on
the high seas
including kids like that but there is
also dark side of
border management we are talking about
those guys
they are trying more and more to hide
in the groups of illegal migrants and
reach
european union the newest threat
ebola virus you will see later in my
presentation that
migrants trying to reach europe on small
boats that's a perfect
perfect environment if there is one
person on board
infected with ebola entire boat can be
infected and you can imagine what can
happen if that boat will land on one of
our shores
in italy or greece
so there are those are three main areas
where frontex is trying to support
member states we do not do
that ourselves as agency we provide
capabilities to member states
and member states can use those
capabilities to do the proper job
and most of those capabilities are smart
technology smart assets
intelligence pictures risk analysis
one of the biggest part of our job risk
analysis
one of the main framework legal
framework that we are using currently to
do our job
meaning to save human lives to
uh limit cross-border crime uh
and to track as much as possible all
those terrorists trying to get into
european union
we use a new legal framework and
technical framework called eurosur which
is a european border surveillance system
and this framework is and will be the
main tool for europe
to improve situational awareness to
increase reaction capability
add the external borders for three main
goals
save as many people as possible
find out all criminals and terrorists
trying to reach european union borders
and i said that safely in flights yes
that's the most important one
so we decided a couple of years ago to
invest
in gis capabilities today we we call it
frontex core gis
the main engine of frontex core gis is
based of course on your products
so we have diverse data sources and to
be honest we are not limited in data
sources
basically on daily basis we are looking
for new data sources from different
providers
uh there is no limits there i would say
sky is the limit we are
our our platform is ready to support all
data formats or data sources that are
available there so it's
just a matter of finding them
so that's our main platform of course we
have here a basic gis capabilities like
we can
decide which one which base map we want
to use i will not show you that because
probably that's the basic stuff for us
but one of the requirements i set for us
was to develop system that operator
needs only finger nothing else
so we decided to to to build in
uh couple of different frameworks
technological frameworks to achieve that
goal yes
so right now what i will do and usually
what our users do with fingers on
touch screens or tablets just drag and
drop different data sets on the screen
so we have for instance a full picture
about all commercial and fishing vessels
right now on openc
we are using diverse group of reporting
systems
ais satellite ais lrit
long range identification and traffic
vms for fishing vessels
even positioning console on so of some
pleasure boats yes so
everything what has transponder on it we
can see it here and i will tell you in
two minutes why is so important for us
and for our operators
another thing what we try to do we try
to provide to our users
detailed models of the weather on the
sea
so basically our officer can zoom in
in the area where he is interested or
she is interested
and we see right now today at six
o'clock the size of waves here in this
area is two meters
but officer can play and see how the
situation will change during the next
hours
we also provide a simulation where the
boat can end up
we take into account we have models
which are using currents
temperature of the sea everything to
predict
where a certain size of the boat with
certain engine capabilities can
be and keep in mind i present you today
only a part related to situational
awareness
situational picture real to near time uh
that's let's say 40 percent of our job
60 is risk analysis where our colleagues
from risk analysis unit are using
extensively gis platform
svgs platform to predict
how the situation will change in the
future uh what are the new trends
uh and visualize that they they try to
do a visualization for decision making
uh folks basically to let them see
in easy-to-understand way how the
situation will change
and it's all on on the maps on web maps
on portals and i think that that's a
successful example how this gis can
support uh
uh first that we can feel a little safer
here
and secondly that we can save some human
beings and i would like to thank you
guys
from s3 most of you probably because you
can say yes
because of your job you save those
people those faces of those kids you
know probably
maybe not those because i don't
fortunately can present you the real
pictures of kids we say because of some
legal aspects
but you can say yes you contributed to
the to these processes so that's a
that's a big thank you from us
from our government to you thank you
so yeah sorry that we showed such a long
video
we already cut it like as much as we
could because we didn't want to show
like
such a long blob but uh yeah
we we thought like yeah it's like really
interesting to show this mindset and to
show what they
yeah like yeah how they sell what they
are doing which is
yeah we can see that it's not the case
as they describe it there
so um now we'll shortly talk about like
the second area why frontex
um is actually yeah why frontic says
it's needed
um so yeah the short history like in
1885
the european unions or like countries
within the european union wanted to do
this borderless
area which in 1995 actually became
like the borders area and from there on
front x actually wasn't
uh in there it started in 2006 with the
second borders code
and um there like they organized that
the countries are we try to
to there they're basically organized
like those checks how are how they are
formalized how strict they have to be
um etc and um
then also with that uh frontix was uh
founded
uh by then only called frontex now they
just changed the name to european border
and coast guard agency
they what they basically do is they
provide or they organize the border
controls
uh within the european union or within
the schengen area um
for not only foreign citizens but also
for third-party citizens
and they are there to harmonize the
water controls that means like
uh creating standards and um yeah
yeah harmonizing the water controls in a
way that they're like alike in
within all the countries um
and they facilitate the cooperation
between the different
uh national polices and give them tools
develop tools for them and train them in
using them what kind of tools
i will go into later and they do a risk
analysis
which is then also part of our store
when we look at the budget of frontex
we see a slight increase especially in
the next years
probably because of the situation
in europe right now um yeah like the
idea is is like not
to um help out actually where it's
needed but instead like
build up this sport with europe with
yeah quite a quite a lot of money um
then in 2013 uh frontex wasn't enough
um they they started building up the
european border surveillance system
which is um they call it the technical
framework which is like
yeah a little bit undefined and what's
really important the budget of that
uh which was like 300 million um is not
equal to the front exposure
that means like it was like added even
like to this whole whole lot of money
um it's there um to
generate like a situation picture within
europe like this this whole map thingy
you just saw
and um was also really relevant also
like a pre-frontier um
situation analysis which means like
they're not only looking at the direct
borders
um they also look into the the pre-born
areas that means within africa
the sub-sahara africa are people
starting moving there and might be a
problem
for europe um they want to use
drones satellites underwater drones
like on land drones everything like it's
yeah like they really watch too much
they
want movies and uh what's really
important like that they sell all of
this i was to think like they want to
save human lives you also just
saw this dude talking about how
important like these children are to him
but when you look at what they are
actually doing it's like
the exact opposite it's all about
building up the fortress europe
so um and what's also really important
is this saving human lives aspect was
only added after like
a lot of pressure of the opposition in
the european parliament
and after 300 people died in front of la
producer one week
before all of this was um yeah
established
so and you see it again like like a
quote from the european commission after
um yeah bringing it into program like
it's it's all about saving human lives
and for sure brought across traffic but
yeah actually it's just saving lives
so and here um now we go through
some of the slides um that he just
presented
so um here you can see i hope
it's it's quite small so so there you
see like like how they um
so they have like this weather data they
have this um
this um ais data that means the ship's
positions and
the satellite pictures etc and they want
to like
push it into this combined service so
that like every broader guard can just
yeah do it with a web service with one
finger uh which is like slight problem
where when you think about like how much
data is aggravated in there and
what decisions might be taken because of
the data which is activated there
so um and and there you see like how how
they
wanted so they have the the front text
vessels they have the
um normal merchant vessels they have um
the the european
military missions and all of that goes
then together
into this yeah gis system and in the
eurozone network
uh where the data can be accessed uh
what's really important for us
for us like um this starts from 2014 so
they already started having
their complete data sources about
everything what's actually happening
happening in the mediterranean sea that
means um the ais
data which is yeah the position data of
every commercial ship
which would be really really interesting
for us uh naked will tell you later why
um but yeah like it's it's just closed
within like this
this black box front x when he talks
about satellite um
detection services what's really
important to to know there
um especially when we think about like
do they see what's happening there do
they
see how people die um the radar
satellites
do not cannot provide like a 24 7 uh
capability to monitor
um the mediterranean sea because they're
not geostationary that means like
they're not
above one point of the earth all the
time instead they they move around all
the time that means
um they cannot have like like a live
picture of the mediterranean sea instead
like this the satellite is passing by
every once in a while
and there you can like see basically
what what the time frames are so like
um yeah every day um between like on a
different time that they're able to see
this area
so um they don't have this this 24 7
surveillance that
which is why they want to use drones and
especially like this autonomous stones
which can fly all the time and swamps
we'll come to that later um to to have
this like
real time all the time surveillance of
an area which
if it works we will see but yeah so and
here you can see basically how they do
the auto automatize analysis
um so there there you can see um
when you see a green triangle it means
that um
there's already a data point from the
ais system so from from this official
system where they where they send their
location points
what they also see is that they're like
a lot of tiny boats
which don't send the signal so they
match this in every
ship which is like not matching the
signal is
something which might be suspicious and
especially like if then the ship goes
straight north towards lampedusa etc um
it might be something
where they might could investigate so
which is really interesting when we look
at the cases that we'll need to talk
about because
if this is the case if the stuff is
working they can see a lot of stuff
which where they either should inform um
yeah the european authorities
are at least the the the libyan
authorities
so what we can see there um
so i'm i'm not talk like the lieben
authorities in the case that those boats
are sinking
so um and we don't know
how how much this is happening um
and it's um but we
we know that uh the leaping coast guard
posted this picture
so um which like we we never get this
kind of information we never get any
information if they know about of
anybody and if they know about
where they are um but the leben coast
guard posted this picture on the on the
facebook side
and um it's obviously a picture taken
out of a surveillance airplane
a drone or something like this showing
them risking
risking a boat so there we have like the
really big question like
why do they have to start and we don't
so
and now niska is going to talk about
yeah like one case which is like really
uh interesting in this context
yeah as nick said this information would
be
immensely important for our work as well
all we basically have is our aircraft
and
the ships that are out there of the ngos
we have come to a point with european
politics that we are not even informed
about distress cases anymore
by the rescue coordination center
even if we are the closest vessel um in
the area for example
we we are not informed because obviously
um
we're not supposed to rescue these
people to europe so
um with our aircraft
as we can fly most of the time even when
the ships have been
um yeah stuck in port uh because of
european politics
um we witnessed a lot of cases over this
year
um where we know that frontex
and other european authorities knew
about boats under stress
and where they chose not to do anything
or where they
potentially informed the so-called
libyan coast guard
and they did not rescue in the end so
that boats were left at sea
um up to several weeks
the most prominent case of this year was
about
a small rubber boat that you see in the
picture as well with 15 people on board
it started on the first of
um august in zawiyah in western
libya and it was at sea for 11 days
before it was finally
spotted and reported
these were 11 days of really really good
weather
in which we know of several cases
that had involvement of frontex and
involvement of um other european
aircraft and still
this case was not reported they pretend
that they only knew
of this case on this 11th day and on
that day there was one survivor still on
board
and the other 14 had died
we from from what we witnessed over
these
days we can pretty much assume that they
knew of this case before but chose not
to rescue
this was another case this was in june
of this year
it was a boat of people who had called
alarm phone
an organization that provides a number
a phone number with which to which
people can make
call from satellite phones if they are
on the move and
from alarm phone we knew that this boat
had been at sea for three days
by the time that our aircraft spotted
this boat
this was already the third day then
and they had run out of fuel they were
already in the
maltese search and rescue area
and the interesting part is that
the armed forces of malta were already
informed and frontex aircraft was unseen
and what usually happens is that they
try to avoid any kind of communication
that we can overhear
because obviously they don't want us to
to listen to that to what they're doing
and what they know
um in this case however
the operator and the frontex aircraft
was not so
cautious and said on the radio on an
open channel
that they had been monitoring them for
hours that was
the quote what happened then was that we
informed obviously about this distress
case and
knew that armed forces malta already
knew about it they were on scene but
they chose not to rescue
we came back to this case about six
hours later after
having patrolled the area furthermore
and they had still
not rescued these people and at that
point um
we then basically had to threaten them
that we were going to take them to court
with
the proof with the video evidence and
the audio recordings that we had
which is has become unfortunately one of
our main tasks to
record everything that we witness to
then
be able to threaten them but also
potentially um
assist in like court cases that might
take these people
in some future um and bring bring that
kind of behavior to justice
um only after this threat that they
start to rescue
so this was the vessel of the maltese
just standing by instead of rescuing and
yeah for hours they were left next to
them
we have a lot of these cases um
unfortunately
in in many situations um we don't have
um actual evidence because we can't be
on scene with our aircraft forever we
have an endurance of like six hours so
um we can't be there 24 7 to
um yeah collect all this evidence and
the recordings that we would need
to prove more of these cases but i think
um
yeah they're quite explicit and you get
an idea of what's happening down there
on a on a daily basis basically
um yeah so what we talked about so far
like with with oil store um
are programs uh which are like already
running at the moment
or which which they're like building up
at the moment like to to get it running
like if it's running i actually have no
idea
um but uh what's really really
interesting uh when we look into the
future is like
uh programs which are like under the
hood of horizon 2020
and that's the european framework for
research and innovation that means like
um it's um a program where they're like
giving budget for scientific research in
areas that are interesting
somehow uh politically for the european
union
um and yeah it's 80 billion euros spent
and this money is a lot of this money is
spent also to private companies and
especially
companies like talis for example which
are like also like
involved in in programs that i will talk
about next um
yeah so military companies that means
like a lot of this scientific money
is going into the development uh
yeah in military company companies and
also a lot of this stuff
can be used uh yeah military afterwards
um the first thing i want to talk about
is ibotta control
what's it called like they're really
awesome uh with the names um
[Music]
it's um the idea about this or what it's
for is like if third
country nationals that means like i
don't know people fro from the states or
people from from india
or wherever want to travel into the
european union uh
they have to go through a process um
where they have to like yeah
apply for the visa and and then also
like like get into like how how they
get in and they're already like um a
risk analysis about how dangerous the
person is
um has to start and this risk is will
happen
in a web browser with webcam so uh the
idea is
uh that you have to talk with an avatar
that's what they call them uh that's
what they look like
um so and this avatar will ask you
questions and in this webcam your
your your face gets recognized and and
your
your mimic gets analyzed and they say
like if you're dangerous or if you're
not dangerous
um the intercept had the chance to test
the system um
i linked the article in the sources it's
really worth reading i think everybody
who saw the talks about biometrical
systems of starbuck on this congress
knows how good those things are working
and they yeah they are working like as
good as those avatars look so
um and um what's then really interesting
like
what what's what's actually happening
like behind all the systems
and they so that they have a have a
website ibottacontrol.net i guess or org
or
you can google it and uh they they give
some internals
which is that so and um i mean
you can get kind of an idea that you
have the client side there and the
the um the portable unit that they have
at the bottom checkpoints
but what is actually happening like in
the middle of it
no like yeah maybe like people can
understand it then i would be really
interested in what's happening there
um what i'm like really interested is
like this database part in the middle
because like
they start collecting data with the
biometrical data obviously
and we know what happens once an agency
is collecting the stuff other agencies
also want to collect it so
like they they're starting like building
up all those databases and like nobody's
actually
taking really care about what's
happening with the starter and
um like in privacy concerns like if it's
legitimate to to collect all the start
of people who just want to travel into
the european union
for sure like when you think about like
the first wii u that we're sure like
yeah it's like all flow of terrorists
and yeah for sure saving
human lives but yeah um it's it's like
the mindset they have that they want to
collect all this data
and uh what i think is really worth
mentioning um
like project partners so uh like the
university
of nova is working also on the project
so
yeah and the next program
robota it's like they're like really
good with those names
um it's like a fully functional um
autonomous border system that that means
like they
i have actually no clue what it means
because like if you want to have a full
functional autonomous border system it
sounds like kind of terminator for me
like
they they talk about like drones in the
air in the water on
on land and they want to operate in
swarms and they want to do it
intelligently and um that's what what
they want to make like this this picture
of the mediterranean sea probably off
where they have this like all the time
life surveillance which they can
document and play back as they want to
which yeah we have to see if it will
work but that's actually uh but that's
at least what they planned they start
testing that now
um with um at least one
like with with with multiple drones on
costs and
um what's really interesting they use
like a mobile operation center which is
the muros
which maybe some of you will know it's
like the standard
police surveillance car in berlin so
it's it's like built by a german
company and there they that will be like
the
situation center where all this data
goes together which is like
if you if you look at it technically um
it's
quite a hard task and if you if you see
how they talk about it like i'm i'm
really curious
if this actually worked because like
that's the the actual really interesting
question
if they say or if they have the
capabilities that they say they have
they watch live what's happening there
and they are able to to see like life
how people die there and if it's not the
case they spend a lot of money on this
cyber bs um where i actually like have
like no clue like
who's who's actually controlling it
because like they have like now this
this momentum where they say like yeah
we're protecting the borders their
terrorists coming like like this and
like yeah
the migrant crisis and the wife of
migrants is coming give us money
and and it's just like thrown to them
and that's like something we really
really really have to talk about
and what's happening with all the data
they're collecting because
like i said we know like one starter is
collected other people also want to help
it
so what should be done first of all we
have to stop forcing migrants to using
these illegal routes uh this this
irregular routes because
as long as they have to take take this
pose as long as they're there are like
no legal ways to go into europe
we have those irregular ways that means
people are forced to take this race
and that means like yeah we we're we're
enabling like to to
to like in case that people want to get
in into europe in an irregular
way we are like enabling it within like
generating those big
big flows by not enabling legal ways to
enter europe
then um arizona frontiers frontex data
needs to be
more public we have to have access to
that and researchers need to have access
to that
and journalists journalists need to have
access to that so that we can actually
talk about
what's happening there and that we know
and and that we can
actually save human lives with that um
what's also important the transmission
transparency in the decision process so
when they make this risk analysis
those risk analysis have like immense
impact on on
on human lives in the end so we have no
idea our
ideas how they are made we have no ideas
um
like what data they take and what data
they don't take to make those risk
analysis
and frontex is trying to have like a
council where where else like
ngos can can like work together with
them
and and watch over that uh see what's
just apply for that
and see what was declined to work with
them so um
and what's really important same privacy
standards for everyone
so and that's it
so thanks guys for super interesting and
important talk we have
some time for questions so if you have
any questions from the crowd uh please
line up
uh next to one of the three microphones
in the aisle uh questions from the
internet if we have we'll take from the
signal angel
um yes any questions
if there's no question from the crowd
i'll ask i'll start by asking a question
um the data that you guys are mentioning
that should be open
is that anything that might fall under
gdpr
in some way that maybe can assist in in
making that data more accessible
or can fronting somehow hide behind
being like some sort of
um government body that maybe shouldn't
or doesn't have to open that data out
uh so far we didn't try to get for
example like the ais data
um from from uh via um
free um right like those gdpr
requests um the thing is like it's it's
commercial data so
so that means this they most likely get
it from commercial service so
so the question is like that they have
maybe like this this copyright thing
again what just happened is um
[ __ ] start um the suit protects
um for uh position data of their vessels
which would be at least like also really
interesting for us like how close they
are to two possible points because
we estimate uh we guessed that they're
actually like quite closer to
maybe you can also like talk about that
they're like actually like you're way
closer to two points than that they
actually say so and they're also like
the concept no they don't have to
so let's see microphone number two
yeah sort of as a follow-up to this like
is there enough public
information or almost public information
like
adsb from the aircraft and ais
from the ships to watch what frontex is
doing and
have that guide your search missions as
well because they might be on top of
what's happening
and standing by doing nothing and it
might be the interesting spots for you
to find out although i don't know do
they turn off their ais
and their adsb transponders uh to hide
where they are
or yeah they do um
and that's the short answer um
yeah i mean it's a bit of a weird
situation we
um fly from lampadusa and uh frontex
flies from there as well so we often
stand next to our aircraft in the
morning and
we land afterwards and yeah
and then they talk to us and in
some of these conversations they've even
admitted to doing that
and the only way of us i mean sometimes
you you get some data from them
sometimes they don't switch it off
sometimes you can also see
military assets from operation sofia
that are
down there but most of the times it's
switched off and sometimes they appear
in the area
list but we don't get actual tracks and
um
yeah for the ships it's basically the
same and apart from that
the european union has withdrawn all
their ships because
with ships they have to save lives and
that's that's
doesn't fit with what they really want
to do so um they have chosen to only
operate aircraft at the moment
um so that they can then give all this
data
that they collect to the so-called
libyan coast guard and they operate the
ships that are obviously
donated by the eu and then um the
libyans
fortunately have not signed the geneva
convention that would prevent them from
bringing people back to
libya which obviously the eu countries
have so it's yeah it's working out
quite well for the eu to only have
aircraft that
um gather all this data and then give it
to the libyans
so they can bring the people back to
hell
and we don't have any insight really
into it apart from being there
and seeing them do this
like for number one um thanks a lot for
a very interesting talk
um i was just thinking and wondering um
this
surveillance system if or when it's
implemented could that actually backfire
because as far as i know it's highly
illegal to um ignore made a calls to not
help for
any vessel that's within range so if
there's like a 24 7
monitoring of the entire mediterranean
sea every time a vessel sinks
this is being watched somehow
automatically or manually and so every
time there's um
a case for taking people to court uh
yeah we think that's actually happening
already at the moment that
they have in their archives quite some
stuff which might be quite problematic
for them
and if it finds the way somehow to the
public we would be like super happy
about that
um but um yeah like it could absolutely
backfire and that's also why we really
want like transparency in this data and
and want this data to be to be shared
publicly because
um it it could also be used as a control
for them to monitor them
um i mean it's like this it's like this
whole privacy debate like i think it's
still
quite a creepy system um but yeah for
for gathering evidence on what they do
it might be super interesting
any more question from the internet has
a question yes
yes the internet asks when human rights
violations are being monitored or proved
aren't there any procedures of eu law
enforcement to take
consequences on that crimes in
case of watching but not supporting
um it's a bit tricky um so for us
um as civilians um we can't
uh take the states if if
they're in this case breaking the law or
the libyans to court
we don't have that right states could do
that um
obviously they don't have any interest
in doing so
it depends a bit so usually the only
people that could actually sue
are the people that are affected so the
people on the boats
um or if people have died then their
relatives could also sue them
but most of the times um these people
are not actually anywhere
in europe for example where they have
access to um
a whole jurisdictional system um
so that's the the one problem with some
cases um
with state actors involved um
prosecutors in the respective state
could uh could sue them
um and this is mainly interesting in the
case of italy
because italy has um marine ships down
there
um from from the from the navy
and there are still some
forces in italy i'd say who are
investigating into this direction
and whom we're also in touch with and
giving giving our data so that
potentially
at least with like italian navy um there
could be some effect but
um yeah for now all we can do is either
yeah publicize this and make it
um yeah eurowide known
uh that this is happening um so that
yeah potentially something develops out
of that but we can't
take them to court ourselves so one last
question for microphone number two maybe
also
one addition to that uh what was also
really important when you when you look
at those systems
um that's like really hard sometimes to
get a responsibility like
one responsible person in in this whole
uh
for example when you take a risk
analysis which might lead to more
intense border controls which make it
more impossible for
uh for people to get into country a or b
um this is this is like a
really abstract process um where where
like a lot of
people take decisions which lead up into
this decision which make
make it impossible for people to enter
europe um but yeah
you don't have like this one person
which is which is responsible for that
which
also those really complex systems enable
so
so last question for microphone number
two please make it short so thanks for
the talk and for the the great work
you're doing
um pivoting off the question about ais
and other
using their data to profile them are you
looking at things like
within the realms of the legal of course
looking at their
drone down links metadata that they're
leaking through
sites that they're using and things like
that to sort of get a sense of of what
they're seeing
or what data they're leaking that
they're not aware of
um not so far except for radio
calls that we office or like the the
the event people are definitely here um
but
we are like highly interested in
everybody who can help us in doing that
so so unfortunately that's all the time
we have for questions uh i wanna again
uh thank you very much for the work that
you're doing it's amazing and thanks for
the great talk
you