0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Dear viewer, these subtitles were generated by a machine via the service Trint and therefore are (very) buggy. If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/423 Thanks! 1 00:00:09,170 --> 00:00:11,029 And we're very happy to have you with us 2 00:00:11,030 --> 00:00:13,039 tonight, Christian author, so please give 3 00:00:13,040 --> 00:00:14,329 it up and have a lot of fun with the 4 00:00:14,330 --> 00:00:15,330 talk. 5 00:00:20,980 --> 00:00:22,009 Thank you very much. 6 00:00:22,010 --> 00:00:23,759 It's really a privilege to be here. 7 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:25,829 This is an amazing event. 8 00:00:25,830 --> 00:00:27,809 So we're going to do the project and talk 9 00:00:27,810 --> 00:00:29,999 a bit about the scientific aspect behind 10 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,099 it, as well as sort of the journey we've 11 00:00:32,100 --> 00:00:33,209 taken over the last three years that 12 00:00:33,210 --> 00:00:34,679 we've been working and how our 13 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,479 methodology has kind of evolved over that 14 00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:37,829 that whole process. 15 00:00:37,830 --> 00:00:39,989 So really, the the main question behind 16 00:00:39,990 --> 00:00:41,429 the project that we've kind of been 17 00:00:41,430 --> 00:00:42,539 addressing the whole time is what would 18 00:00:42,540 --> 00:00:43,799 the world be like if you could see 19 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:45,269 through the eyes of someone else? 20 00:00:45,270 --> 00:00:46,889 If people who are in conflict on 21 00:00:46,890 --> 00:00:48,569 different sides of a war could experience 22 00:00:48,570 --> 00:00:49,949 what it's like to be someone else, their 23 00:00:49,950 --> 00:00:51,539 story, their family and so forth, how 24 00:00:51,540 --> 00:00:53,759 would that affect our ability to connect 25 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:55,529 and resolve conflicts? 26 00:00:57,750 --> 00:00:59,459 So really what we're looking at is the is 27 00:00:59,460 --> 00:01:01,079 the relationship between identity and 28 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,209 empathy, how you construct your identity 29 00:01:03,210 --> 00:01:05,518 and how that inhibits or facilitates 30 00:01:05,519 --> 00:01:06,519 empathy. 31 00:01:07,340 --> 00:01:09,329 So here is an example of some research 32 00:01:09,330 --> 00:01:11,609 that is happening in this 33 00:01:11,610 --> 00:01:13,689 movement we're seeing in neuroscience 34 00:01:13,690 --> 00:01:15,749 in the past 10 years in the 35 00:01:15,750 --> 00:01:18,749 embedded tradition and around empathy. 36 00:01:18,750 --> 00:01:20,669 This, for example, is a study that showed 37 00:01:20,670 --> 00:01:22,079 that there was a stronger 38 00:01:23,190 --> 00:01:25,649 correlation between the 39 00:01:25,650 --> 00:01:27,169 neural representation of threat. 40 00:01:27,170 --> 00:01:29,369 So you do 41 00:01:29,370 --> 00:01:31,439 a brain scan of a person 42 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:33,629 being threatened to be hurt 43 00:01:33,630 --> 00:01:35,819 and and you would report 44 00:01:35,820 --> 00:01:38,099 a missing person looking 45 00:01:38,100 --> 00:01:40,439 at someone that was being threatened. 46 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,959 And when there was two people, 47 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:44,219 two persons were close. 48 00:01:44,220 --> 00:01:46,439 They had were like family ties 49 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,749 or friends, there was a stronger 50 00:01:48,750 --> 00:01:50,699 correlation on the representation of 51 00:01:50,700 --> 00:01:52,499 threat. So in a way, familiarity was 52 00:01:52,500 --> 00:01:54,599 promoting sort 53 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:56,919 of blurriness of self 54 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:58,739 was a representation on the on the 55 00:01:58,740 --> 00:01:59,969 neurological level. 56 00:01:59,970 --> 00:02:02,009 Yeah. Basically, the difference like 57 00:02:02,010 --> 00:02:03,149 between you and the other person 58 00:02:03,150 --> 00:02:04,889 neurologically is not that different than 59 00:02:04,890 --> 00:02:06,029 if they're being threatened and you feel 60 00:02:06,030 --> 00:02:07,030 close to them. 61 00:02:08,370 --> 00:02:09,779 So we have also memories. 62 00:02:09,780 --> 00:02:11,969 A lot did was in investigating 63 00:02:11,970 --> 00:02:13,229 mirror neurons and mirror neurons are 64 00:02:13,230 --> 00:02:15,449 specifically specific neurons 65 00:02:15,450 --> 00:02:17,309 which fire when you both perceive an 66 00:02:17,310 --> 00:02:18,959 action and when you take that action 67 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:20,009 yourself as well. 68 00:02:20,010 --> 00:02:21,389 And there's a nice quote from him there, 69 00:02:21,390 --> 00:02:22,409 we're going to kind of go a bit fast 70 00:02:22,410 --> 00:02:23,609 because we have, I think, too many 71 00:02:23,610 --> 00:02:24,610 slides. 72 00:02:26,460 --> 00:02:28,589 So one of kind of 73 00:02:28,590 --> 00:02:30,899 illusions that you can induce 74 00:02:30,900 --> 00:02:33,009 is a very on one hand 75 00:02:33,010 --> 00:02:35,459 illusion that when you see 76 00:02:35,460 --> 00:02:37,589 plastic hand being touched and you 77 00:02:37,590 --> 00:02:39,749 feel your real hand is why it's hidden 78 00:02:39,750 --> 00:02:41,819 behind the blanket, rather, at the same 79 00:02:41,820 --> 00:02:43,439 time, in the same area, you can induce 80 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,779 the feeling of owning a plastic hand. 81 00:02:45,780 --> 00:02:48,539 And this kind of effect is 82 00:02:48,540 --> 00:02:49,979 further investigated by 83 00:02:50,990 --> 00:02:53,099 person. I've been in Karolinska 84 00:02:53,100 --> 00:02:55,799 Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, 85 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:57,929 using replacing visual 86 00:02:57,930 --> 00:02:59,609 feedback, uh, through virtual reality 87 00:02:59,610 --> 00:03:00,609 headsets and camera. 88 00:03:00,610 --> 00:03:03,839 So in this sense, in the example 89 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,179 they were studying how owning plastic 90 00:03:06,180 --> 00:03:07,589 body. 91 00:03:07,590 --> 00:03:09,389 So using the same technique of touching 92 00:03:09,390 --> 00:03:11,759 the two feet at the same time with affect 93 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:13,529 the perception, for instance, of the 94 00:03:13,530 --> 00:03:15,809 world around you. So, yeah, the size 95 00:03:15,810 --> 00:03:18,719 of your own body determines the perceived 96 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,239 size of the of the world. 97 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,519 So it's interesting that with that, 98 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,049 it's basically that your sensors don't 99 00:03:25,050 --> 00:03:26,309 operate independently of each other. 100 00:03:26,310 --> 00:03:28,379 There's the effect each other all the 101 00:03:28,380 --> 00:03:30,119 time. And so from that, you can hack your 102 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,189 body's perception about itself and 103 00:03:32,190 --> 00:03:33,479 override your own sense of body 104 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,759 ownership. So we see also 105 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,059 another event lab in Barcelona 106 00:03:39,060 --> 00:03:40,439 led by Mel Slater. And they've done some 107 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:41,639 really interesting research of what that 108 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:43,169 means. Also socially, how you can change 109 00:03:43,170 --> 00:03:44,919 your perception about stuff using 110 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,009 embodiment effect and in this 111 00:03:47,010 --> 00:03:48,689 case, virtual world. 112 00:03:48,690 --> 00:03:50,909 They've seen that if you put a white 113 00:03:50,910 --> 00:03:53,129 person in the skin of a black and 114 00:03:54,300 --> 00:03:56,279 avatar with black skin, that actually 115 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:57,719 reduces their implicit racial bias. 116 00:03:57,720 --> 00:03:59,699 So this is not the kind of bias that you 117 00:03:59,700 --> 00:04:02,099 see you have, but it's the bias that is 118 00:04:02,100 --> 00:04:03,779 that they detect through some sort of 119 00:04:03,780 --> 00:04:05,399 rigorous testing afterwards. 120 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,379 So this is really the inspiration behind 121 00:04:07,380 --> 00:04:09,479 the project. We decided to take this 122 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:11,069 and put it in a different context, put it 123 00:04:11,070 --> 00:04:12,599 in an artistic context, investigate the 124 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,249 ethical implications of it and other 125 00:04:14,250 --> 00:04:15,449 possible uses. 126 00:04:15,450 --> 00:04:17,639 So this is an early slide 127 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:19,379 or an early picture of how we started 128 00:04:19,380 --> 00:04:21,599 out. We're using a very 129 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,369 low budget stuff, things we bought from 130 00:04:23,370 --> 00:04:25,709 China, virtual reality glasses 131 00:04:25,710 --> 00:04:27,719 from the 90s that we kind of got from the 132 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:29,939 university somehow and really started 133 00:04:29,940 --> 00:04:31,739 experimenting with these ideas and 134 00:04:31,740 --> 00:04:32,819 experience, trying to recreate them and 135 00:04:32,820 --> 00:04:33,820 see what would happen. 136 00:04:35,340 --> 00:04:37,499 So the kind of system that we 137 00:04:37,500 --> 00:04:39,539 have been using, there's been further 138 00:04:39,540 --> 00:04:41,639 iteration after that was kind 139 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:43,719 of clearly inspired by the research 140 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:45,809 we're showing before, except 141 00:04:45,810 --> 00:04:48,239 that we try to replace a virtual 142 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,339 environment by sort of a 143 00:04:50,340 --> 00:04:51,569 human element. 144 00:04:51,570 --> 00:04:54,059 We're not using virtually generated 145 00:04:54,060 --> 00:04:55,260 environments through 146 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,369 computation, but rather using another 147 00:04:59,370 --> 00:05:01,619 person's sensory 148 00:05:01,620 --> 00:05:03,749 motor contingencies to 149 00:05:03,750 --> 00:05:05,609 to transfer to the body. 150 00:05:05,610 --> 00:05:07,709 So we here 151 00:05:07,710 --> 00:05:08,999 we're using the Oculus Rift. We're using 152 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,249 other headsets before, which is sent 153 00:05:11,250 --> 00:05:13,559 to, um, um, 154 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,419 a mounted camera which follows the head 155 00:05:15,420 --> 00:05:17,399 movements. And the performer would be 156 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,979 copying the movements of the of the user. 157 00:05:19,980 --> 00:05:21,809 And we use identical objects and 158 00:05:21,810 --> 00:05:24,239 identical spaces so that they can get the 159 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,130 appropriate touch feedback. 160 00:05:27,810 --> 00:05:29,789 So really what we're looking at here is 161 00:05:29,790 --> 00:05:31,619 how to use this in how to develop this 162 00:05:31,620 --> 00:05:33,209 project in different context. 163 00:05:33,210 --> 00:05:34,859 So one of the first places that we 164 00:05:34,860 --> 00:05:36,749 started doing this was in the which is a 165 00:05:36,750 --> 00:05:37,889 performing arts center outside of 166 00:05:37,890 --> 00:05:39,419 Barcelona. And they have an interesting 167 00:05:39,420 --> 00:05:41,399 association with the Indignados movement 168 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:42,479 in Spain. So there's a lot of different 169 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:43,799 community groups and activist groups 170 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:44,999 within this place. 171 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,799 So the idea was to find a methodology 172 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,089 that would allow us to investigate this 173 00:05:49,170 --> 00:05:51,209 without hierarchy. So we're not just 174 00:05:51,210 --> 00:05:52,469 saying, oh, we're the technical people 175 00:05:52,470 --> 00:05:53,429 and we're going to tell you how to do 176 00:05:53,430 --> 00:05:54,929 this, but rather say here's how the 177 00:05:54,930 --> 00:05:56,339 system works. Here's the technology. 178 00:05:56,340 --> 00:05:57,599 Here's the scientific aspect. 179 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:58,649 What would you use it for? 180 00:05:58,650 --> 00:06:00,749 What kind of stories or situations would 181 00:06:00,750 --> 00:06:02,639 you like to explore using this? 182 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,709 And so working with anthropologists 183 00:06:04,710 --> 00:06:06,989 and community organizers, 184 00:06:06,990 --> 00:06:09,659 women's groups, dancers, 185 00:06:09,660 --> 00:06:11,579 hackers, a bunch of different people, we 186 00:06:11,580 --> 00:06:12,989 tried to kind of create a bunch of 187 00:06:12,990 --> 00:06:14,909 different experiments and situations and 188 00:06:14,910 --> 00:06:15,910 see what would come out of this. 189 00:06:17,250 --> 00:06:18,509 This is one of the first ones here. 190 00:06:18,510 --> 00:06:21,089 You see basically the two identical. 191 00:06:21,090 --> 00:06:22,090 Oh, yeah. 192 00:06:22,740 --> 00:06:25,379 Here you see two identical spaces, 193 00:06:25,380 --> 00:06:26,489 identical objects. 194 00:06:26,490 --> 00:06:28,619 And then, as Arthur was saying, 195 00:06:28,620 --> 00:06:30,899 the user will reach out and pick 196 00:06:30,900 --> 00:06:32,249 up an object that they see. 197 00:06:32,250 --> 00:06:34,649 The object is there and 198 00:06:34,650 --> 00:06:35,819 at the same time, it's in the other 199 00:06:35,820 --> 00:06:37,979 space. So they can they 200 00:06:37,980 --> 00:06:40,169 can feel that. And then at the same time, 201 00:06:40,170 --> 00:06:41,649 this is associated to narrative. 202 00:06:41,650 --> 00:06:43,979 So we would have prerecorded 203 00:06:43,980 --> 00:06:45,089 narrative of the person that they're 204 00:06:45,090 --> 00:06:46,919 embodying associated to different 205 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:48,569 objects. So you can branch the narrative 206 00:06:48,570 --> 00:06:50,819 then in sort of embodied theater 207 00:06:50,820 --> 00:06:53,079 kind of way in non-linear form. 208 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,319 So that's really the first iterations 209 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:55,859 that happened. 210 00:06:55,860 --> 00:06:58,589 There are other experiments we did 211 00:06:58,590 --> 00:06:59,999 maybe want to talk about. 212 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,399 Yeah, so that was Sara Ann and 213 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,199 her mother, Anna, who's an artist. 214 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,329 And they they came up, they can they 215 00:07:06,330 --> 00:07:08,549 reach out to us and talking about 216 00:07:08,550 --> 00:07:09,959 the kind of difficulties that had in 217 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:11,909 their relationship and they were trying 218 00:07:11,910 --> 00:07:14,249 to figure out a way to try to 219 00:07:14,250 --> 00:07:16,419 do some kind of performance around that. 220 00:07:16,420 --> 00:07:18,809 And Sarah made a very beautiful 221 00:07:18,810 --> 00:07:21,089 story about it, was very 222 00:07:21,090 --> 00:07:23,339 poetic and very 223 00:07:23,340 --> 00:07:25,289 interesting metaphors for such a young 224 00:07:25,290 --> 00:07:27,539 kid. She was talking the story was called 225 00:07:27,540 --> 00:07:29,759 the the girl with the red tears, 226 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:31,949 the blood tears 227 00:07:31,950 --> 00:07:34,350 and talking about through the story about 228 00:07:36,030 --> 00:07:37,769 her difficulties relating to other 229 00:07:37,770 --> 00:07:38,999 people. That's cool. 230 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,159 And her mother was so and what 231 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:42,299 she was telling the story. She was 232 00:07:42,300 --> 00:07:44,369 drawing it and her mother was kind 233 00:07:44,370 --> 00:07:46,469 of like copying the movement to get this 234 00:07:46,470 --> 00:07:48,659 embodiment effect into 235 00:07:48,660 --> 00:07:50,849 the world and story and 236 00:07:50,850 --> 00:07:53,069 feelings of her daughter to 237 00:07:53,070 --> 00:07:54,959 hopefully get a better understanding and 238 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,089 work in works in both ways, I 239 00:07:57,090 --> 00:07:59,369 think both as a 240 00:07:59,370 --> 00:08:01,499 sort of self-improvement empowerment tool 241 00:08:01,500 --> 00:08:03,599 for for Sarah and 242 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,699 Anna together, like a 243 00:08:05,700 --> 00:08:07,649 sort of insider connection and to that 244 00:08:07,650 --> 00:08:08,669 that story. 245 00:08:08,670 --> 00:08:09,959 So it's really like the kind of 246 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:11,609 experiences that people I mean, we tried 247 00:08:11,610 --> 00:08:12,599 the experiment. I was like, oh, this is 248 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:14,399 interesting. But once we started sharing 249 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:15,539 it with people and they were creating 250 00:08:15,540 --> 00:08:17,729 their own experiences, it became 251 00:08:17,730 --> 00:08:18,839 it was very powerful. 252 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:20,219 They came back weeks later and were like, 253 00:08:20,220 --> 00:08:21,629 wow, that's amazing that she's doing 254 00:08:21,630 --> 00:08:22,709 better in school. We have a better 255 00:08:22,710 --> 00:08:24,119 relationship now. And this kind of stuff 256 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,219 was really what motivated us to keep on 257 00:08:26,220 --> 00:08:27,179 working because we weren't being paid. 258 00:08:27,180 --> 00:08:28,619 This was entirely self-funded. 259 00:08:28,620 --> 00:08:30,599 And we're like, OK, well, let's see what 260 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:31,739 other things we could do. 261 00:08:31,740 --> 00:08:33,719 So one of the other people we worked with 262 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,969 was Yousef, who was an illegal immigrant 263 00:08:35,970 --> 00:08:37,529 in Spain who had come over illegally on a 264 00:08:37,530 --> 00:08:39,509 raft and had been living in the street, 265 00:08:39,510 --> 00:08:41,819 had learned to read, learn to write, 266 00:08:41,820 --> 00:08:43,259 and eventually became a dance instructor. 267 00:08:43,260 --> 00:08:45,179 And he wanted to share his story with 268 00:08:45,180 --> 00:08:47,039 people in the local community where he 269 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,079 lived. So we worked with him over the 270 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:50,789 course of several weeks and figured out 271 00:08:50,790 --> 00:08:52,289 different protocols and recorded some 272 00:08:52,290 --> 00:08:53,909 audio and had different objects that he 273 00:08:53,910 --> 00:08:55,199 could interpret that people could interact 274 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:56,429 with. And then we presented this as a 275 00:08:56,430 --> 00:08:58,589 public performance for people in the 276 00:08:58,590 --> 00:08:59,759 in the town where we were. 277 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:00,989 And it was amazing. 278 00:09:00,990 --> 00:09:02,939 Like, you see, this is really, I think, 279 00:09:02,940 --> 00:09:03,929 what became interesting. 280 00:09:03,930 --> 00:09:06,449 It wasn't that the technology was like 281 00:09:06,450 --> 00:09:08,609 providing something that that 282 00:09:08,610 --> 00:09:10,199 was needed. You know, like you don't need 283 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:11,699 the technology. What it is, is it 284 00:09:11,700 --> 00:09:13,589 provides a context where you're in this 285 00:09:13,590 --> 00:09:15,299 liminal space, you're not quite yourself, 286 00:09:15,300 --> 00:09:16,889 you're not quite the other person. 287 00:09:16,890 --> 00:09:18,959 And what happens in that space is 288 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:20,829 the starting point for dialog afterwards. 289 00:09:20,830 --> 00:09:22,559 That's really how we try to use this 290 00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:24,719 technology, like whatever video game 291 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,029 equipment and stuff, and bring the 292 00:09:27,030 --> 00:09:28,709 co-opted and bring the focus back towards 293 00:09:28,710 --> 00:09:30,329 something human. When you take when they 294 00:09:30,330 --> 00:09:32,519 take it off, they're actually facing 295 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,289 the person that they just were. 296 00:09:34,290 --> 00:09:35,729 Before that, they were just interacting 297 00:09:35,730 --> 00:09:37,439 and experiencing themselves from the 298 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,149 perspective of the other person, and 299 00:09:39,150 --> 00:09:41,099 that's really what seems to be a powerful 300 00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:42,359 experience after taking it off, the 301 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:43,919 people who don't know him, you know, he's 302 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:45,659 big tall guy, you know, like just wanted 303 00:09:45,660 --> 00:09:46,919 to reach out and hug him. And it was kind 304 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:48,689 of these sort of experiences which kept 305 00:09:48,690 --> 00:09:50,779 on confirming to us that 306 00:09:50,780 --> 00:09:51,960 we're sort of on to something there. 307 00:09:53,490 --> 00:09:55,709 Yeah. We've been also working with an 308 00:09:55,710 --> 00:09:58,259 integrated dance company 309 00:09:58,260 --> 00:10:00,389 which featured both people 310 00:10:00,390 --> 00:10:02,549 in wheelchairs and able bodied dancer 311 00:10:02,550 --> 00:10:04,739 dancers. And through exchanging with 312 00:10:04,740 --> 00:10:06,809 them, one of the, um, 313 00:10:06,810 --> 00:10:08,070 suggestions that came out from 314 00:10:09,210 --> 00:10:10,889 wheelchair users, what they wanted to see 315 00:10:10,890 --> 00:10:13,079 themself dancing, standing up, 316 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,049 which was like kind of thing where 317 00:10:16,050 --> 00:10:17,999 I mean, I think would have come to our 318 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,279 idea to propose that because it seems 319 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,499 kind of weird. But after that, 320 00:10:22,500 --> 00:10:24,179 we developed some kind of choreography 321 00:10:24,180 --> 00:10:26,339 language where using his 322 00:10:26,340 --> 00:10:28,319 hands, he could, um, there was an 323 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,229 improvization happening with a dancer 324 00:10:31,230 --> 00:10:34,299 which was used to, um, create 325 00:10:34,300 --> 00:10:36,959 to get through at the end 326 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:38,189 of the rest of the body. 327 00:10:38,190 --> 00:10:40,319 And so they could see themselves dancing 328 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,509 through the camera of the other person 329 00:10:42,510 --> 00:10:43,259 standing up. 330 00:10:43,260 --> 00:10:44,339 There's all these videos online. 331 00:10:44,340 --> 00:10:45,569 We don't really have much time to show 332 00:10:45,570 --> 00:10:46,799 them now, but you can just look online 333 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:48,179 and find documentation about these 334 00:10:48,180 --> 00:10:49,949 projects. One of the interesting things 335 00:10:49,950 --> 00:10:52,319 about this is how it relates to 336 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,029 see if we were doing this in an academic 337 00:10:54,030 --> 00:10:55,709 institution or scientific institution, 338 00:10:55,710 --> 00:10:57,149 it'd be very, very difficult to get an 339 00:10:57,150 --> 00:10:58,469 ethical approval for this because like 340 00:10:58,470 --> 00:10:59,549 some of these people had never worked. 341 00:10:59,550 --> 00:11:01,499 What if they had a traumatic experience 342 00:11:01,500 --> 00:11:02,940 or they became depressed afterwards? 343 00:11:04,350 --> 00:11:05,819 You know, it'd be very difficult to get 344 00:11:05,820 --> 00:11:07,589 ethical approval to run this kind of 345 00:11:07,590 --> 00:11:08,669 experience or experiment. 346 00:11:08,670 --> 00:11:10,019 But when you're working in artistic 347 00:11:10,020 --> 00:11:11,759 context, it's a lot more flexible. 348 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:13,499 And also it allows for this kind of 349 00:11:13,500 --> 00:11:15,629 horizontal collaboration that's 350 00:11:15,630 --> 00:11:17,189 more egalitarian. You don't you're not 351 00:11:17,190 --> 00:11:18,389 they're not your research subject. 352 00:11:18,390 --> 00:11:20,879 They are creating the whole experience 353 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:22,139 with you in that process. 354 00:11:24,150 --> 00:11:26,249 And then, yeah, we have this 355 00:11:26,250 --> 00:11:28,679 this video, which, uh, kind of 356 00:11:28,680 --> 00:11:31,019 a lot 357 00:11:31,020 --> 00:11:33,829 of attention, like quite unintentionally, 358 00:11:33,830 --> 00:11:35,969 uh, I should I should say, 359 00:11:35,970 --> 00:11:38,029 um, we just posted the video and 360 00:11:38,030 --> 00:11:39,099 it went viral. 361 00:11:39,100 --> 00:11:40,649 It just happened when we thought the 362 00:11:40,650 --> 00:11:42,509 project was actually about to end because 363 00:11:42,510 --> 00:11:44,609 we were all so 364 00:11:44,610 --> 00:11:46,709 we all working together in Barcelona 365 00:11:46,710 --> 00:11:49,229 was with four of us at the time. 366 00:11:49,230 --> 00:11:51,299 And we all went to a 367 00:11:51,300 --> 00:11:53,399 different country to, um, to 368 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:54,419 make a living. 369 00:11:54,420 --> 00:11:55,799 But in the meantime, we 370 00:11:56,850 --> 00:11:58,559 we have a lot of people can start and 371 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:00,659 reaching out to us to, uh, after 372 00:12:00,660 --> 00:12:03,149 seeing this video. And it kind of 373 00:12:03,150 --> 00:12:04,529 served as an introduction to all the work 374 00:12:04,530 --> 00:12:07,679 we had been doing before. 375 00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:10,109 And yeah, it also happened through 376 00:12:10,110 --> 00:12:11,609 the IDF and came out of the success. 377 00:12:11,610 --> 00:12:13,879 And uh, uh, some people. 378 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,139 Yeah, we were in one of the open 379 00:12:16,140 --> 00:12:17,099 because a lot of the stuff happened 380 00:12:17,100 --> 00:12:18,189 during this open collapse. 381 00:12:18,190 --> 00:12:19,589 And so one couple came to us. 382 00:12:19,590 --> 00:12:20,549 Actually, there are two friends, I think 383 00:12:20,550 --> 00:12:22,049 male and female and like, oh, we really 384 00:12:22,050 --> 00:12:23,099 want to kind of explore each other's 385 00:12:23,100 --> 00:12:23,999 bodies. Can you just give us the 386 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:25,949 equipment and we'll go off into the room 387 00:12:25,950 --> 00:12:27,029 on our own? I'm not sure. Okay, no 388 00:12:27,030 --> 00:12:28,349 problem. Then they came out afterwards 389 00:12:28,350 --> 00:12:30,179 and they were like, wow, that was totally 390 00:12:30,180 --> 00:12:31,739 amazing. Like, OK, so how can we. 391 00:12:37,020 --> 00:12:38,020 Thank you. 392 00:12:39,630 --> 00:12:41,129 So we thought, OK, how can we expand on 393 00:12:41,130 --> 00:12:42,539 that so this setup is different than the 394 00:12:42,540 --> 00:12:43,949 other one. Rather than having a user and 395 00:12:43,950 --> 00:12:46,019 a performer, you have 396 00:12:46,020 --> 00:12:47,429 two users. Basically, they're swapping 397 00:12:47,430 --> 00:12:48,749 perspectives. And in order for the 398 00:12:48,750 --> 00:12:50,279 embodiment effect to work, they have to 399 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,379 stay in sync. So that means that all 400 00:12:52,380 --> 00:12:53,609 the actions they're doing have to be 401 00:12:53,610 --> 00:12:55,799 agreed like kind of nonverbally. 402 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:57,749 And it creates like this interesting 403 00:12:57,750 --> 00:12:59,609 dance of agency and consent, you know, 404 00:12:59,610 --> 00:13:01,529 wherever you like, you know, I mean, you 405 00:13:01,530 --> 00:13:02,849 know, whatever. The stereotypical thing 406 00:13:02,850 --> 00:13:03,889 that you might think is like, oh, I 407 00:13:03,890 --> 00:13:05,249 Bressan, I can go like this, but I mean, 408 00:13:05,250 --> 00:13:06,419 like, if you do that and they don't want 409 00:13:06,420 --> 00:13:07,469 to, you're not going to see it, you know, 410 00:13:07,470 --> 00:13:08,399 you're just going to be an asshole. 411 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:09,400 So it's. 412 00:13:10,700 --> 00:13:13,109 So the idea is like it just changed 413 00:13:13,110 --> 00:13:14,729 the whole relationship then between 414 00:13:14,730 --> 00:13:16,199 between the two people who are experiencing 415 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,149 it. And and yeah, that was that was 416 00:13:18,150 --> 00:13:20,099 really interesting. So we got loads of 417 00:13:20,100 --> 00:13:22,199 attention from this unexpectedly. 418 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:23,879 We didn't even promote it, just got found 419 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:25,169 out in somewhere and and then the 420 00:13:25,170 --> 00:13:26,919 programs that we had to actually show it. 421 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:27,989 And insulations. Yeah. 422 00:13:27,990 --> 00:13:29,619 So they invite us to do an installation. 423 00:13:29,620 --> 00:13:30,569 I was like, we don't normally work in 424 00:13:30,570 --> 00:13:31,739 installation, but we did, we started 425 00:13:31,740 --> 00:13:33,599 developing stuff and we've been invited 426 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:34,559 to a bunch of different events. 427 00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:36,899 So we went to some medical 428 00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:39,059 hacking day thing and started then really 429 00:13:39,060 --> 00:13:40,469 because lots of people from different 430 00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:42,059 fields contacted us, like cognitive 431 00:13:42,060 --> 00:13:43,349 science researchers, performing arts 432 00:13:43,350 --> 00:13:44,759 people, people involved in conflict 433 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:46,499 resolution, all this stuff. 434 00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:47,759 And so we started saying, well, actually, 435 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,859 this idea, this concept, this sort of 436 00:13:49,860 --> 00:13:51,899 stuff has applications in lots of these 437 00:13:51,900 --> 00:13:53,249 fields. How do we expand this? 438 00:13:53,250 --> 00:13:54,599 So, you know, of course, it's open source 439 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,159 and stuff. We thought, well, let's just 440 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:57,539 just share it and try to go to all these 441 00:13:57,540 --> 00:13:58,799 places where they're inviting us and see 442 00:13:58,800 --> 00:13:59,999 what we can get. 443 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,499 So this is one of the experiments 444 00:14:02,970 --> 00:14:05,009 that was some sort of 445 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:07,259 pre experiments. 446 00:14:07,260 --> 00:14:08,519 We're trying to see if the design, the 447 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,039 system could be used in this way is 448 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:12,989 kind of like a replication with our 449 00:14:12,990 --> 00:14:15,209 system of the virtual 450 00:14:15,210 --> 00:14:17,339 environment, therapies for 451 00:14:17,340 --> 00:14:19,499 burn victims where they found out and 452 00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:21,839 it's actually using hospitals sometimes 453 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,879 that's for severe burn victims. 454 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:25,799 When you put them in the video game with 455 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:27,959 they like throw snowballs that penguins 456 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:29,459 and polar bears, it kind of distracts 457 00:14:29,460 --> 00:14:31,469 them from the pain, like from pain. 458 00:14:31,470 --> 00:14:33,209 That's chronic pain that they cannot get 459 00:14:33,210 --> 00:14:35,309 rid of. And with this kind of distraction 460 00:14:35,310 --> 00:14:37,649 work. So we we have been looking at 461 00:14:37,650 --> 00:14:40,229 this kind of so we put 462 00:14:40,230 --> 00:14:42,809 we measure the pain tolerance with 463 00:14:42,810 --> 00:14:45,149 the like how long you you can stand 464 00:14:45,150 --> 00:14:46,709 with your hand in a bucket of ice with 465 00:14:46,710 --> 00:14:47,710 control, temperature 466 00:14:48,990 --> 00:14:51,299 with and without the system. 467 00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:54,059 So doing this kind of respiration 468 00:14:54,060 --> 00:14:56,339 exercise, focusing on your body while 469 00:14:56,340 --> 00:14:57,929 being another person, 470 00:14:59,860 --> 00:15:01,949 it's in the semi 471 00:15:01,950 --> 00:15:03,029 control. 472 00:15:03,030 --> 00:15:05,109 Yeah. This result and environment 473 00:15:05,110 --> 00:15:07,109 results seem to indicate that that was a 474 00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:08,099 positive effect. 475 00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:09,329 Yeah, it was in collaboration with two 476 00:15:09,330 --> 00:15:10,829 different neuroscientists at different 477 00:15:10,830 --> 00:15:12,899 universities. This is like a pilot 478 00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:15,029 study. So in addition, we also went 479 00:15:15,030 --> 00:15:17,129 of course, to some different art 480 00:15:17,130 --> 00:15:19,439 exhibitions. This is in Eindhoven, that 481 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,179 art exhibition called Gender Blendr. 482 00:15:21,180 --> 00:15:22,889 And then we realized that showing the art 483 00:15:22,890 --> 00:15:24,539 in these contexts provides us an 484 00:15:24,540 --> 00:15:26,609 opportunity to do to 485 00:15:26,610 --> 00:15:28,289 do user testing in a way, you know, like 486 00:15:28,290 --> 00:15:30,479 you're exposed to a much broader section 487 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:31,919 of the population than you would if 488 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,569 you're in research institution where 489 00:15:33,570 --> 00:15:35,759 you're dealing with mostly 20 to 30 year 490 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:37,139 old white males with a technology 491 00:15:37,140 --> 00:15:38,879 background. So if all of a sudden we're 492 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:40,109 being invited to all these places, we 493 00:15:40,110 --> 00:15:41,459 thought, well, let's go and show it and 494 00:15:41,460 --> 00:15:43,409 really be there and do it as kind of a 495 00:15:43,410 --> 00:15:44,969 technical and anthropological research at 496 00:15:44,970 --> 00:15:45,970 the same time. 497 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,379 So this is some workshop at a recent 498 00:15:49,380 --> 00:15:51,719 conference in September in Berlin 499 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,519 where we had a workshop with people 500 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:54,809 showing them how to use it. 501 00:15:55,830 --> 00:15:57,689 Yeah, and then there's a series of 502 00:15:57,690 --> 00:15:59,129 pictures. 503 00:15:59,130 --> 00:16:01,829 This is in Sao Paulo in Brazil as well. 504 00:16:01,830 --> 00:16:03,929 This is in Spain, again, working with 505 00:16:03,930 --> 00:16:05,459 dancers. This time there's lots of 506 00:16:05,460 --> 00:16:06,599 different iterations of the project that 507 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,099 we've sort of gone through, but there's 508 00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:10,019 more documentation online. 509 00:16:10,020 --> 00:16:11,219 Yeah, this was interesting. 510 00:16:11,220 --> 00:16:13,049 This is one of the people who contacted 511 00:16:13,050 --> 00:16:15,749 us actually after the video went viral. 512 00:16:15,750 --> 00:16:18,239 It works in the United Nations 513 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,249 and the Alliance of Civilizations, which 514 00:16:20,250 --> 00:16:22,379 is a small kind of department that 515 00:16:22,380 --> 00:16:24,689 funds and researches experimental 516 00:16:24,690 --> 00:16:25,949 projects and conflict resolution. 517 00:16:25,950 --> 00:16:27,749 So you'd actually have the same idea 518 00:16:27,750 --> 00:16:29,969 using neuroscience embodiments, 519 00:16:29,970 --> 00:16:32,459 virtual reality, storytelling performance 520 00:16:32,460 --> 00:16:33,989 to address conflict specifically. 521 00:16:33,990 --> 00:16:35,219 But he hadn't found anyone to work on it, 522 00:16:35,220 --> 00:16:36,299 didn't have the skills himself. 523 00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:37,529 So when he found us, he was like, wow. 524 00:16:37,530 --> 00:16:38,519 And we're like, oh, cool. This is 525 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,529 amazing. So I yeah, join the team, you 526 00:16:40,530 --> 00:16:42,659 know, like, it's, you know, it's open. 527 00:16:42,660 --> 00:16:44,759 So since then, this was a project 528 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,949 that we we sort of participated in. 529 00:16:46,950 --> 00:16:49,559 It was a retreat for a Somali diaspora 530 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:50,639 storytellers. So that would be 531 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:52,469 journalists and artists and poets and 532 00:16:52,470 --> 00:16:54,689 writers and activists and 533 00:16:54,690 --> 00:16:57,149 documentary makers looking at intertribal 534 00:16:57,150 --> 00:16:59,159 conflict. So this is of course, it's a 535 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:00,449 tricky situation. You go there and you 536 00:17:00,450 --> 00:17:01,469 don't want to be like, oh, we're the 537 00:17:01,470 --> 00:17:02,879 white European guys with some technology 538 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:04,108 that's going to fix all your problems. 539 00:17:04,109 --> 00:17:05,249 You know, you have to kind of go there 540 00:17:05,250 --> 00:17:06,669 and say, all right, we just have the 541 00:17:06,670 --> 00:17:07,649 stuff we've been working on. 542 00:17:07,650 --> 00:17:08,848 What do you think of it? How would you 543 00:17:08,849 --> 00:17:10,649 use it? What's the context? 544 00:17:10,650 --> 00:17:12,568 How do we create a context together that 545 00:17:12,569 --> 00:17:13,889 this might be useful? Maybe it's not 546 00:17:13,890 --> 00:17:16,439 useful, but you need to try to have this 547 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:17,939 this dialog. 548 00:17:17,940 --> 00:17:20,159 So I think that's really like 549 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:21,809 where we're at now. 550 00:17:21,810 --> 00:17:23,939 We're you know, we've 551 00:17:23,940 --> 00:17:25,919 been invited to MIT for a year to do some 552 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:27,328 research there as well. 553 00:17:27,329 --> 00:17:30,089 We're also got invited to two events in 554 00:17:30,090 --> 00:17:31,589 Israel. And so we decided, well, we're 555 00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:32,669 going to Israel. Let's see if we can 556 00:17:32,670 --> 00:17:33,869 connect those two events and stay in 557 00:17:33,870 --> 00:17:35,129 Israel for a month. And then we're like, 558 00:17:35,130 --> 00:17:36,239 well, if we're in Israel, we might as 559 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,329 well. Try to go to Palestine as well, OK? 560 00:17:38,330 --> 00:17:39,499 There's no funding. How do we do that? 561 00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:40,969 But let's run through with the ideas. 562 00:17:40,970 --> 00:17:42,140 We're going to run two concurrent 563 00:17:43,340 --> 00:17:45,019 simultaneous sort of workshop development 564 00:17:45,020 --> 00:17:46,459 periods with members of the community, 565 00:17:46,460 --> 00:17:48,469 activists, artists, hackers in Israel and 566 00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:49,819 Palestine, and try to network these 567 00:17:49,820 --> 00:17:50,959 people and interconnect the results 568 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:52,429 across the border as well, looking 569 00:17:52,430 --> 00:17:53,989 everyone with the same common goal of 570 00:17:53,990 --> 00:17:55,759 like how do we address conflict and just 571 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:56,779 see what comes out of that. 572 00:17:56,780 --> 00:17:58,009 Maybe it's to do with the machine, maybe 573 00:17:58,010 --> 00:18:00,049 it's not. But using it as a tool to 574 00:18:00,050 --> 00:18:02,389 really build networks of people who work 575 00:18:02,390 --> 00:18:04,219 and collaborate on a horizontal level and 576 00:18:04,220 --> 00:18:06,799 find the tools for communicating 577 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:08,129 in an interdisciplinary manner. 578 00:18:08,130 --> 00:18:10,159 It is really what we're what we're 579 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,409 interested in doing with 580 00:18:12,410 --> 00:18:13,969 the future of the project. 581 00:18:13,970 --> 00:18:16,129 So, yeah, we have we have, 582 00:18:16,130 --> 00:18:17,359 like we're talking about before, open 583 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:18,599 open source platform. 584 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,719 We have this three 585 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:22,609 printed hardware that was designed for us 586 00:18:22,610 --> 00:18:25,459 by Barcelona. 587 00:18:25,460 --> 00:18:27,709 We always work with really low 588 00:18:27,710 --> 00:18:28,609 budget technology. 589 00:18:28,610 --> 00:18:30,769 So this is the jacket you're 590 00:18:30,770 --> 00:18:32,389 seeing is a bunch of our three printed 591 00:18:32,390 --> 00:18:34,939 pieces, uh, PlayStation cameras 592 00:18:34,940 --> 00:18:37,159 are doing in the back the really 593 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:38,989 most expensive piece of hardware is the 594 00:18:38,990 --> 00:18:41,209 computer in it, I guess, and and 595 00:18:41,210 --> 00:18:42,109 the Oculus. 596 00:18:42,110 --> 00:18:44,429 And we 597 00:18:44,430 --> 00:18:46,489 invite all the quarters 598 00:18:46,490 --> 00:18:48,739 in in the room to check out our GitHub 599 00:18:48,740 --> 00:18:50,899 and reach out to us if they have 600 00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:52,489 any idea how they would like to 601 00:18:52,490 --> 00:18:54,559 contribute. There's little things 602 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,259 that we need help with, uh, 603 00:18:57,260 --> 00:18:59,029 on the technical level as well. 604 00:18:59,030 --> 00:19:00,920 And, um, yeah, I think 605 00:19:01,970 --> 00:19:03,769 yeah, that's yeah. 606 00:19:03,770 --> 00:19:05,539 I guess like also just thinking about 607 00:19:05,540 --> 00:19:07,339 this sort of context. 608 00:19:07,340 --> 00:19:08,419 And we we're working we're also 609 00:19:08,420 --> 00:19:09,769 interested in other people who are maybe 610 00:19:09,770 --> 00:19:11,389 working maybe with different projects, 611 00:19:11,390 --> 00:19:13,279 but also in a disciplinary manner, like 612 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,349 how useful is it like to design stuff 613 00:19:15,350 --> 00:19:16,669 like if you're working with like PGP 614 00:19:16,670 --> 00:19:17,989 adoption or something like that, you 615 00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:19,669 know, working directly with users and 616 00:19:19,670 --> 00:19:21,889 stuff or people in the field to actually 617 00:19:21,890 --> 00:19:23,689 create these tools and methods of usage. 618 00:19:23,690 --> 00:19:24,919 Maybe there's people working on that 619 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:26,449 here. Maybe there's stuff that we've been 620 00:19:26,450 --> 00:19:28,039 doing over the last few years which can 621 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:29,269 contribute to these kind of things in 622 00:19:29,270 --> 00:19:31,909 terms of formalizing a methodology for 623 00:19:31,910 --> 00:19:33,109 kind of collaborative development of 624 00:19:33,110 --> 00:19:34,549 projects that are interdisciplinary. 625 00:19:35,660 --> 00:19:37,369 Yeah, I think that's that's basically it. 626 00:19:37,370 --> 00:19:38,370 So thank you very much. 627 00:19:50,990 --> 00:19:52,889 Yeah, thank you, Christian and Atha, the 628 00:19:52,890 --> 00:19:54,479 good news is we still have like 10 629 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,369 minutes for questions and answers, so 630 00:19:56,370 --> 00:19:58,499 please line up at the microphones 631 00:19:58,500 --> 00:19:59,500 here in the hallway. 632 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:01,649 We start with a question from the 633 00:20:01,650 --> 00:20:02,669 Internet. 634 00:20:02,670 --> 00:20:03,749 Oh, hi. 635 00:20:03,750 --> 00:20:05,609 Um, the question from the Internet is 636 00:20:05,610 --> 00:20:07,889 more related to, 637 00:20:07,890 --> 00:20:09,119 um. 638 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,279 Yeah. How you can use the technology 639 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:12,449 also in other fields. 640 00:20:12,450 --> 00:20:14,519 Like, would you say you could 641 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,889 tell people with body image issues 642 00:20:16,890 --> 00:20:19,019 like anorexia or something to 643 00:20:19,020 --> 00:20:21,179 recalibrate their perception 644 00:20:21,180 --> 00:20:22,619 of their own body? 645 00:20:22,620 --> 00:20:23,519 That's part of the thing. 646 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,249 We have been talking with some, uh, 647 00:20:26,250 --> 00:20:27,569 neurologists that it's working. 648 00:20:27,570 --> 00:20:29,789 Exactly. And that this 649 00:20:29,790 --> 00:20:32,189 fucking medicine event in Madrid, 650 00:20:32,190 --> 00:20:33,249 that was a possibility. 651 00:20:33,250 --> 00:20:34,589 They could do that in virtual reality. 652 00:20:34,590 --> 00:20:36,689 Right now, the way it's done is to 653 00:20:36,690 --> 00:20:38,999 assess if someone has a bad, badly 654 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:39,929 assessed body image. 655 00:20:39,930 --> 00:20:41,729 Is that just show a bunch of pictures to 656 00:20:41,730 --> 00:20:42,629 a person. 657 00:20:42,630 --> 00:20:44,869 And and 658 00:20:44,870 --> 00:20:46,649 that on every picture they say, oh, yeah, 659 00:20:46,650 --> 00:20:48,689 this is bigger than me and thinner than 660 00:20:48,690 --> 00:20:49,679 me. Bigger than me. 661 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,959 But you could very easily 662 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,209 imagine doing that, uh, with with 663 00:20:54,210 --> 00:20:56,309 someone else rather than giving the 664 00:20:56,310 --> 00:20:57,329 agency and like that. 665 00:20:57,330 --> 00:21:00,179 Really the strong thing about the 666 00:21:00,180 --> 00:21:01,949 the machine is like we're using the real 667 00:21:01,950 --> 00:21:04,529 world and the it's actually 668 00:21:04,530 --> 00:21:07,259 I think so far it's, uh, 669 00:21:07,260 --> 00:21:08,939 strangely my singing, it's it's more 670 00:21:08,940 --> 00:21:11,129 convincing to use a video feed with, 671 00:21:11,130 --> 00:21:13,199 like, uh, some movement with maybe 672 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,479 some approximation and some latency, then 673 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,219 just a virtual environment. 674 00:21:17,220 --> 00:21:19,079 It's easy to imagine how it could be 675 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:20,849 better, um, quickly. 676 00:21:20,850 --> 00:21:23,319 But then the flexibility of 677 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,139 of using just really simple technology 678 00:21:25,140 --> 00:21:27,329 and the and the real world is, I think 679 00:21:27,330 --> 00:21:29,579 allows us to to to explore very quickly 680 00:21:29,580 --> 00:21:30,059 different things. 681 00:21:30,060 --> 00:21:32,279 And that was, uh, something we, 682 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,469 uh and we possibly we actually 683 00:21:34,470 --> 00:21:36,419 met with someone who found the project 684 00:21:36,420 --> 00:21:38,159 and was saying, I've been on record for 685 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:39,809 20 something years and I would like to 686 00:21:39,810 --> 00:21:40,889 come and meet you. So they actually 687 00:21:40,890 --> 00:21:42,389 traveled to meet us at one of the events 688 00:21:42,390 --> 00:21:43,979 we were doing. And we're able to try the 689 00:21:43,980 --> 00:21:45,659 system and make some recommendations. 690 00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:46,979 I mean, you know, we said, well, we're 691 00:21:46,980 --> 00:21:47,969 not doctors. 692 00:21:47,970 --> 00:21:49,319 We don't we can't promise you anything. 693 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:50,729 But like, no, no, I just want to go and 694 00:21:50,730 --> 00:21:53,249 participate and see what I can 695 00:21:53,250 --> 00:21:54,279 kind of offer in terms of that. 696 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,129 So there was like there has been some 697 00:21:56,130 --> 00:21:57,989 initial kind of dialog about that and 698 00:21:57,990 --> 00:21:59,249 working with people, you know, patients 699 00:21:59,250 --> 00:22:01,829 and this kind of horizontal sort of 700 00:22:01,830 --> 00:22:02,669 structure. 701 00:22:02,670 --> 00:22:04,710 Do you know any medical papers on that? 702 00:22:05,850 --> 00:22:08,099 Medical papers on anorexia and 703 00:22:08,100 --> 00:22:09,029 virtual reality? 704 00:22:09,030 --> 00:22:11,339 Yes, there could be. 705 00:22:11,340 --> 00:22:12,689 I can't think off the top of my head, but 706 00:22:12,690 --> 00:22:14,009 if you want to email us or whatever, we 707 00:22:14,010 --> 00:22:15,659 can talk later as well. 708 00:22:15,660 --> 00:22:16,619 All right. Thanks for the input. 709 00:22:16,620 --> 00:22:18,719 Next question from microphone three. 710 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,789 Yeah, hi. Um, I've read that 711 00:22:20,790 --> 00:22:23,129 there are sort of two different ways that 712 00:22:23,130 --> 00:22:25,379 different individuals process 713 00:22:25,380 --> 00:22:27,539 visual input and reconcile it with how 714 00:22:27,540 --> 00:22:29,369 they're where they are in space. 715 00:22:29,370 --> 00:22:32,129 And that one of those modes makes people 716 00:22:32,130 --> 00:22:34,319 more prone to things like motion sickness 717 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,089 from virtual reality equipment. 718 00:22:36,090 --> 00:22:37,889 And it happens that those things break 719 00:22:37,890 --> 00:22:38,939 down across gender lines. 720 00:22:38,940 --> 00:22:41,189 It's more common for women to be 721 00:22:41,190 --> 00:22:43,499 motion sick from VR technologies. 722 00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:45,869 And I was wondering if you have seen 723 00:22:45,870 --> 00:22:47,429 much of that in your observations of your 724 00:22:47,430 --> 00:22:49,589 project, if you have 725 00:22:49,590 --> 00:22:51,779 many women involved working with you 726 00:22:51,780 --> 00:22:53,999 regularly. I know you commented about 727 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,829 the typical white dudes in technology 728 00:22:55,830 --> 00:22:57,239 problem. 729 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:58,979 So if you could speak to that, I would 730 00:22:58,980 --> 00:23:00,389 find that really interesting. 731 00:23:00,390 --> 00:23:02,579 Yeah. In terms of 732 00:23:02,580 --> 00:23:04,789 we've not necessarily done 733 00:23:04,790 --> 00:23:06,899 a quantifiable analysis of 734 00:23:06,900 --> 00:23:08,579 everyone, every participant that we've 735 00:23:08,580 --> 00:23:09,929 worked with. I've worked in this field 736 00:23:09,930 --> 00:23:11,159 before as well. And yeah, you're right, 737 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,019 there's differences in how this is 738 00:23:13,020 --> 00:23:14,759 perceived by people also across age as 739 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:16,889 well. I was working in VR rehabilitation 740 00:23:16,890 --> 00:23:18,509 for people with stroke, which is mostly 741 00:23:18,510 --> 00:23:20,069 elderly as well. 742 00:23:20,070 --> 00:23:21,689 So, yeah, there's definitely a big 743 00:23:21,690 --> 00:23:23,999 difference in terms of motion sickness. 744 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,709 I don't think we've observed any kind of 745 00:23:25,710 --> 00:23:27,599 effect. But that's that's interesting. 746 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:28,679 I didn't know there was there was 747 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:29,680 happening. 748 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:32,099 Do you think that that could be related 749 00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:34,469 to the fact that you're actually 750 00:23:34,470 --> 00:23:36,329 coordinating with another person and so 751 00:23:36,330 --> 00:23:38,249 that the timing maybe works out better? 752 00:23:38,250 --> 00:23:40,529 Or is it just you 753 00:23:40,530 --> 00:23:41,819 have no idea because that's a totally 754 00:23:41,820 --> 00:23:44,159 valid and sometimes there's 755 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,349 some very technical stuff about why we 756 00:23:46,350 --> 00:23:47,909 haven't had too many issues with motion 757 00:23:47,910 --> 00:23:49,949 sickness. We actually cut off. 758 00:23:49,950 --> 00:23:51,149 We're changing the orientation of the 759 00:23:51,150 --> 00:23:52,739 camera so we have greater up and down 760 00:23:52,740 --> 00:23:54,839 orientation and less side so that 761 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,149 there's there's less motion sickness 762 00:23:57,150 --> 00:23:58,449 because it's not your entire field of 763 00:23:58,450 --> 00:24:00,419 view that's that's covered in this case. 764 00:24:00,420 --> 00:24:02,369 So but. 765 00:24:02,370 --> 00:24:03,549 All right, thanks. Next question for 766 00:24:03,550 --> 00:24:04,550 microphone two. 767 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:06,509 All right. 768 00:24:06,510 --> 00:24:08,339 Yeah, this will be a question about a 769 00:24:08,340 --> 00:24:10,649 setup we've seen in the slides. 770 00:24:10,650 --> 00:24:12,719 Um, it 771 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,609 looked like there was just one camera, 772 00:24:14,610 --> 00:24:15,659 essentially. 773 00:24:15,660 --> 00:24:17,609 Did you get a proper stereoscopic view 774 00:24:17,610 --> 00:24:19,829 enabling that perception 775 00:24:19,830 --> 00:24:21,359 on the Oculus? 776 00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:23,159 We have been working with a bunch of 777 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:24,160 cameras. 778 00:24:25,410 --> 00:24:26,369 This setup we were talking about. 779 00:24:26,370 --> 00:24:27,709 Yeah, this is Modisane. 780 00:24:27,710 --> 00:24:30,059 Yeah, we is duplicate the signal. 781 00:24:30,060 --> 00:24:32,369 But on one of the issues with using 782 00:24:32,370 --> 00:24:34,139 stereoscopic cameras in an installation 783 00:24:34,140 --> 00:24:35,219 setup is that you have to kind of 784 00:24:35,220 --> 00:24:37,169 calibrate per user with enter pupillary 785 00:24:37,170 --> 00:24:39,239 distance. So it makes it a lot simpler if 786 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:40,439 we just, you know, if we're getting 787 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:41,729 people in and out or whatever and it's 788 00:24:41,730 --> 00:24:43,529 chaos, then, you know, it's easier. 789 00:24:43,530 --> 00:24:45,569 We do have some that's like a mechanical 790 00:24:45,570 --> 00:24:46,979 way of actually adjusting the cameras. 791 00:24:46,980 --> 00:24:48,299 And then you can also do it with software 792 00:24:48,300 --> 00:24:48,589 to. 793 00:24:48,590 --> 00:24:50,359 But we don't generally use that in 794 00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:52,459 whatever we do on this one, 795 00:24:52,460 --> 00:24:54,289 for example, we had a bunch of TV 796 00:24:54,290 --> 00:24:56,179 cameras. This one was trying to build our 797 00:24:56,180 --> 00:24:57,529 own was a bit complicated. 798 00:24:57,530 --> 00:24:58,849 This one we're not available are not 799 00:24:58,850 --> 00:25:00,469 available anymore. But we have we've had 800 00:25:00,470 --> 00:25:02,629 some. Yeah, it really makes the immersion 801 00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:04,909 stronger, of course, especially 802 00:25:04,910 --> 00:25:05,749 in close quarters. 803 00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:07,519 And you can put your hand and your body 804 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,109 in this like sort of less of a difference 805 00:25:09,110 --> 00:25:11,149 in like after a couple of meters. 806 00:25:11,150 --> 00:25:13,039 But yeah, it's actually important. 807 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:14,089 Definitely. 808 00:25:14,090 --> 00:25:14,739 Thanks. 809 00:25:14,740 --> 00:25:16,099 OK, it seems to me that there's another 810 00:25:16,100 --> 00:25:17,579 question from the Internet. 811 00:25:17,580 --> 00:25:18,639 Yes. Yes. 812 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,379 There's so how well do you think 813 00:25:21,380 --> 00:25:23,839 the immersion controllable by the user, 814 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,029 what's like the risk used for 815 00:25:26,030 --> 00:25:28,189 this technology, like for torturing or 816 00:25:28,190 --> 00:25:30,319 anything in this direction? 817 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:31,549 I think there is. 818 00:25:31,550 --> 00:25:33,259 That's one of the main reasons that we're 819 00:25:33,260 --> 00:25:35,479 interested in kind of taking 820 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,249 the project ourselves to these different 821 00:25:37,250 --> 00:25:38,629 contexts. Like we've been to ARC things 822 00:25:38,630 --> 00:25:39,589 have been to documentary. 823 00:25:39,590 --> 00:25:41,509 We're now at MIT, which doesn't have a 824 00:25:41,510 --> 00:25:43,639 very ethical record and a lot of ways. 825 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,199 And it's like it's interesting to go to 826 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,839 this context and kind of sort of 827 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,909 bring the ideology that's kind of brought 828 00:25:49,910 --> 00:25:51,859 the made the project what it is so far 829 00:25:51,860 --> 00:25:53,539 into these contexts and see how we can 830 00:25:53,540 --> 00:25:54,770 sort of keep that going. 831 00:25:55,970 --> 00:25:57,379 I think there's obviously uses for 832 00:25:57,380 --> 00:25:59,359 torture with this or whatever, but I 833 00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:01,489 mean, we're not so worried about 834 00:26:01,490 --> 00:26:03,499 that. I think the cooption that could 835 00:26:03,500 --> 00:26:05,629 happen is that, you know, you have 836 00:26:05,630 --> 00:26:07,729 this like as 837 00:26:07,730 --> 00:26:08,929 just an immersive experience that you 838 00:26:08,930 --> 00:26:10,099 have on your own. Really, what we're 839 00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:12,259 focusing on here is bringing creating 840 00:26:12,260 --> 00:26:14,119 a context that brings you back towards 841 00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:15,559 dealing with someone. In reality, you 842 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,959 take off the the 843 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,179 gear and then the experience 844 00:26:20,180 --> 00:26:21,709 is really then the meaningful part 845 00:26:21,710 --> 00:26:23,089 happens in that in that way. 846 00:26:23,090 --> 00:26:24,079 That's really what we're looking at, is 847 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,389 creating a kind of a social context 848 00:26:26,390 --> 00:26:28,279 where this is just the starting point. 849 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:29,719 All right. Next question for microphone 850 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:30,720 three. 851 00:26:31,130 --> 00:26:33,529 How do you measure increased empathy 852 00:26:33,530 --> 00:26:35,479 and what kind of methodological issues 853 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,849 have you seen arising with that 854 00:26:37,850 --> 00:26:38,989 food? 855 00:26:38,990 --> 00:26:41,239 Yeah, we haven't actually started 856 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,309 quantifiable empathy is. 857 00:26:43,310 --> 00:26:44,629 Yeah, that's not something that we've 858 00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:46,159 been doing so much at the moment. 859 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,889 We've been working at 860 00:26:48,890 --> 00:26:50,269 setting up some different collaborations 861 00:26:50,270 --> 00:26:51,589 with some other universities, doing 862 00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:53,749 comparative studies with 863 00:26:54,830 --> 00:26:56,629 this and other things regarding virtual 864 00:26:56,630 --> 00:26:59,089 reality. And I think now the 865 00:26:59,090 --> 00:27:00,739 environments we're working in are quite 866 00:27:00,740 --> 00:27:03,079 chaotic. So having, you know, 867 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:04,459 measurable signs of it doesn't really 868 00:27:04,460 --> 00:27:05,689 work. So there's methodologies that we 869 00:27:05,690 --> 00:27:07,429 can use. Some of them don't necessarily 870 00:27:07,430 --> 00:27:09,439 work, but some of the things we try here 871 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,539 I think are useful to bring back into 872 00:27:11,540 --> 00:27:12,949 maybe a more clinical environment and 873 00:27:12,950 --> 00:27:14,179 investigate there. That's one of the 874 00:27:14,180 --> 00:27:15,259 things we're going to be doing while 875 00:27:15,260 --> 00:27:17,089 we're in at MIT, for instance, is trying 876 00:27:17,090 --> 00:27:19,219 to make a more rigorous set up of 877 00:27:19,220 --> 00:27:20,299 some of the stuff we've tried in the 878 00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:21,409 field. 879 00:27:21,410 --> 00:27:23,599 And the question from the Internet as to 880 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,939 what it's actually like, one would know 881 00:27:25,940 --> 00:27:28,039 how long the longest experiment 882 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,079 with to people thinking was. 883 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,059 And the other is whether there will be a 884 00:27:32,060 --> 00:27:34,339 demo or workshop that's 885 00:27:34,340 --> 00:27:35,899 used the next day. 886 00:27:35,900 --> 00:27:37,219 Actually, a good question, because we 887 00:27:37,220 --> 00:27:38,599 forgot to mention we're are running a 888 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,669 workshop here, but we haven't 889 00:27:40,670 --> 00:27:42,289 been able to book it because the wiki was 890 00:27:42,290 --> 00:27:44,419 down. So if you want to check our 891 00:27:44,420 --> 00:27:46,549 Twitter, then we can we 892 00:27:46,550 --> 00:27:48,109 will have that organized at some point. 893 00:27:48,110 --> 00:27:49,519 I'm thinking tomorrow or at some point. 894 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:50,719 But if you see us around and there's 895 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:51,919 people who want to hack and you have a 896 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:53,479 space already at your desk, we have all 897 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:54,859 the gear here already. So just let us 898 00:27:54,860 --> 00:27:56,390 know when we can get stuff going. 899 00:27:57,740 --> 00:28:00,289 In terms of the other question, which was 900 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,649 I forgot in the first 901 00:28:03,650 --> 00:28:05,839 part of the question is there I can get 902 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,999 the question first part, how long the 903 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,339 sinking of to people 904 00:28:10,340 --> 00:28:10,999 lasted? 905 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,679 Yeah, I think the longest one we did was 906 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,839 we kept one of our research, 907 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,059 one of our team members in there for two 908 00:28:17,060 --> 00:28:18,439 hours, I think. 909 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:19,879 But it wasn't with one other person in 910 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:21,709 this case. It was lots of other people 911 00:28:21,710 --> 00:28:22,939 swapping with him and he didn't take it 912 00:28:22,940 --> 00:28:24,319 off the whole time. So he was quite 913 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:25,510 disoriented by the end of it. 914 00:28:26,990 --> 00:28:28,639 All right. Since you mentioned your 915 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:29,869 Twitter account, maybe you want to go 916 00:28:29,870 --> 00:28:31,909 back to the last slide so people can note 917 00:28:31,910 --> 00:28:33,799 it down. And I think this would be the 918 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,079 very last question for microphone two. 919 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:36,999 OK, thanks. 920 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,470 Um, my question is about you 921 00:28:40,670 --> 00:28:42,949 said this is more like an art project 922 00:28:42,950 --> 00:28:45,109 of yours, but you already mentioned 923 00:28:45,110 --> 00:28:45,999 some university. 924 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,349 So are you aware of some 925 00:28:48,350 --> 00:28:49,609 scientific research 926 00:28:51,650 --> 00:28:52,949 already in the making? 927 00:28:52,950 --> 00:28:55,189 Right. I was just set up or are 928 00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:56,089 there already papers? 929 00:28:56,090 --> 00:28:58,189 Maybe we have some people 930 00:28:58,190 --> 00:29:00,229 actually explain then like how to 931 00:29:00,230 --> 00:29:00,709 replicate. 932 00:29:00,710 --> 00:29:03,019 It's inspired by, like 933 00:29:03,020 --> 00:29:06,199 kind of research by Erson Lab in our own, 934 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,139 but it's still in the mix in the making. 935 00:29:09,140 --> 00:29:11,089 There's other research that's similar and 936 00:29:11,090 --> 00:29:12,229 some ways, like we mentioned, some of it 937 00:29:12,230 --> 00:29:13,669 there in terms of using our set up 938 00:29:13,670 --> 00:29:15,799 specifically, we the first one 939 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:16,819 that we're working with is at MIT. 940 00:29:16,820 --> 00:29:19,009 There's other universities that we can't 941 00:29:19,010 --> 00:29:19,909 really mention yet because it's not 942 00:29:19,910 --> 00:29:22,159 official. So but we're 943 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,079 already in talks with researchers within 944 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,209 there who are seeking funding for 945 00:29:26,210 --> 00:29:27,799 having us there and developing the 946 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,089 project and using it as a common 947 00:29:29,090 --> 00:29:30,559 platform, maybe for sharing research 948 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,209 between institutions as well, since it's 949 00:29:32,210 --> 00:29:33,229 open source or whatever. 950 00:29:33,230 --> 00:29:35,569 And if people are making some advancement 951 00:29:35,570 --> 00:29:37,039 with the interface or with the technology 952 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:38,089 and one thing, it can be fed to the 953 00:29:38,090 --> 00:29:39,139 broader open source community. 954 00:29:39,140 --> 00:29:40,549 That's one of our motivations for working 955 00:29:40,550 --> 00:29:42,229 with these large technical and scientific 956 00:29:42,230 --> 00:29:43,230 universities as well. 957 00:29:44,690 --> 00:29:46,399 All right. Thank you so much also for 958 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:47,659 taking the time for Q&A. 959 00:29:47,660 --> 00:29:48,579 And thank you for this. 960 00:29:48,580 --> 00:29:50,019 Interesting talk. Thank you so much for 961 00:29:50,020 --> 00:29:51,020 being here. Thanks.